Sudhir does make some valid points, though he could have delivered them more cogently and without his trademark sting! He also did not completely state the argument, and left it to be inferred.

If you remove "Sudhir" from the points made by him, it is apparent that the approach he stated: Inculcating first principles, clinical teaching method, etc., is exactly the USP of NLS from its inception. Someone in this thread rightly pointed that this was not his creation or idea, and that it belonged to Prof Menon. But Prof Menon always stated that it was prevalent abroad and in different disciplines in India (not in law faculties at that time) and that he only borrowed it.

What Sudhir did not call out was that: once the first principles were transmitted in the 1-3 years, the students were allowed to specialize in the 4-5 years. This was the USP of NLS, as this allowed students via the Seminars and Clinical Courses (juxta posed with the internship/placements undertaken in the 3 to 5 years) to actually learn the physical/ground level workings of law. So, the point a lot of folks are making in this thread is addressed.

Guess this is the model across NLU's in India today. While I don't know the exact workings of the course now a days, every college allows students to specialise and intern during their course. So unless the freshly minted International Review Committee, comes up with some novel and path breaking methods, this is the template for the next few years.

P.S. Some things don't change- Sudhir's abhorrence for law firms or corporate jobs is just a legacy issue. It is a fact on record that, Prof Menon was dead against Law Firms or Corporate placements for the students... he sabotaged the 1994 & 1995 batches placements sessions... so much so that he did not permit the 1996 batch to even conduct any placement sessions and they had to rent space at I.I.Sc for conducting their campus placements (hired from 1996 students contributions).

On your question: OCIs can be lawyers in India. There is a GOI notification re the same. Get an OCI card after your citizenship change and you should be fine.

But there are a few larger issues:

(i) Indian lawyers can’t be “employed” - Indian law firms structure their contracts in a retainer-ship form to avoid this. Foreign firms don’t (speaking from my personal experience). Most Indians working abroad with firms are also on employment visas. Therefore, such lawyers must per BCI Rules suspend their Indian license.

(ii) Irrespective of the qualification of their lawyers, foreign law firms cannot practice Indian law. Although there isn’t an explicit prohibition (to the best of my knowledge) in the BCI Rules, but foreign law firms risk it not - both from a bar council and a tax perspective. So that US/UK and India dual qualified tag has no practical utility (except for business development).

In theory, I can’t think of any problems in being a US Citizen+OCI advising on Indian law as a solo practitioner in NY. Hope it helps!

With the OGs like NLUJ performing extremely mediocre (no reports yet from other tier-1 NLUs) , there are rumours (which will be most likely true) that mid tier and lower NLUs will msierably face the brunt and the impact has already started. Seniors are telling us openly not to get the hopes too high and stay on LinkedIn the whole time. Even if it means contacting every single way out!

Lol, Noojies getting carried away. Not a surprise there but don’t flatter yourself. SLS and NLUD are nothing alike. We’ve been ahead since of NUJS in nearly every ranking we’ve participated in, almost every year. SLS got lucky once and dropped down immediately thereafter. And let’s see how NUJS fares after the increased batch size with a new BSc, that’ll be a real indication of its staying power.

Can confirm. It is gloomy. Many news articles are highlighting the "recession" vibes across law firms (check interviews of managing partners). They see "growth and absorption" of fresh talent as the biggest challenge for the next couple of years in contrast to "attrition rate" which was the biggest challenge in COVID.

Volume of M&A transactions and corporate work predicted to stagnate in most of FY23 and FY24. The sentiment is definately negative. No doubt about it.

HRs from T-1 are calling and cancelling their plans of coming for campus recruitment drives. (Khaitan cancelled at a T-2 NLU, showed similar concerns w.r.t hiring numbers in a telephonic conversation with GNLU RCC)

Hiring targets have been reduced by upto 50-60% (maximum by Trilegal).

Assessment Internships are being termed as "call back" only (SAM emails after April), PPO interviews have been put on hold (Luthra, Indus, SCAM, JSA, Saraf), rejections have been coming to above average students even from T-2 firms. (DMD)

NLUJ Day-Z failed in comparison to last year.

NUJS is feeling the heat (personal communication from an RCC member) though close to 30 have PPOs (I don't believe him tbh).

Current PPO numbers across top 6-7 NLUs are 10-15 less than what they were last year before Day-Z (verified data).

Top Rankers are desparately counting on campus placements after getting unfavorable responses from firms. Preparing for GDs and interviews etc. on attendance exemptions.

All in all, the 2024 batch is out of luck. Over-hiring last year is costing us immensely. Getting the numbers to 60-70% of the 2023 batch numbers would be the best case scenario in T-1s. (40% in T-2s and may God help you in other law schools)

Hey,

I am 46 (female) in the process of becoming a US Citizen. I am already a green card holder. I did my LLB from India (Uttar Pradesh) and is a member of Bar Council of Gujarat. I was actually a practicing lawyer in Mumbai for a few years before I left India.

I migrated to the US after marriage, did an LLM and became licensed (Bar License) in New York.

On my profile I always write 'India, New York Qualified Immigration Lawyer'.

Can I legally keep it after I become a US citizen? Is it actually legal to keep it?

Why I am asking - even a person of Indian origin cannot be an advocate in India. Only Indian citizens can be an advocate in India. Once you loose your Indian Citizenship ▮▮▮ are technically ineligible to be an advocate or continue as an advocate.

But - A lot of big city new york law firms (global AM100 law firms) actually have lawyers who did LLB from National Law Universities in India, LLM in the US and still keeping "Qualified in India and New York/California'' despite the fact that many of them became citizens years back.

How could these Indian Lawyers keep -" Qualified in India and US". Despite the fact that they are no longer qualified in India?

I am a small time immigration lawyer, so for me these many technicalities doesn't matter. But for firms like Baker and Mckenzie, Latam and Watkins it really does. How could these firms allow thier indian lawyers to still keep this on thier website?

if you have interned earlier with kco, your chances of a day z shortlist depend on your internship feedback, not rank or anything else

the one guy who interned and got a day z offer at nluj had a partner recommendation at his internship so yeah, make sure your team gives a stellar recommendation if uve applied for day z with kco after interning

There is already very well known undertones of jealously between different EPs on billing and cliental. Some EPs have openly cribbed about the fact that their hard work is not recognized vis a vis when compared to other EPs. Funnily, they don't think twice about revealing their insecurities to their team members.

Although only around the half the batch was sitting for placement (others are preparing for UPSC, judiciary, LLMs, litigation, etc.), the prospects for those sitting for placements at NLUD do look dire this year due to plethora of factors collectively hampering the Day Zero for the batch of 2024

I don’t know how much time he has to live as I write this, and whether newspapers are readying their obituaries. But everyone who is part of NUJS, as students and alumni, should reflect. Generation Z has absolutely no idea of who this man is and may not even have heard of him. But those of us who are old enough know his honesty, integrity and efforts to bring industry to Bengal. How Azim Premji called him the best chief minister in India. Who really built the flyovers and industrial townships that today adorn a certain person’s photograph. We also know how that certain person drove Tata motors out. We also know how Ratan Tata referred to that person as “Bad M“. We also know the standard of honesty of politicians in the state today. But NUJS is one of the major symbols of the change. When Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee was chief minister, the vice chancellors were Madhava, Menon, BS Chimni and MP Singh. Nobel laureates like Amartya Sen and Joseph Stiglitz gave lectures at NUJS when the college was still brand new, while Upendra Baxi was Ford Foundation chair professor. No other NLU boasted such speakers. The governing body had the who’s who of the legal world. Herbert Smith Freehills started a moot court competition. The batch sizes were 80-100 and there were just two people per hostel room plus many single rooms. There was no domicile quota and the faculty was very good too.

Now look at things today….

I feel it’s time to educate Gen Z about the true history of NUJS and the real people behind it. Maybe someone should do a podcast for future generations, so that this history is not forgotten?

One of the things that annoyed me about the interview is how he says that “we” at NLSIU been teaching like this for 30 years. The dude just joined a few years ago! He should credit Madhava Menon (who he didn’t even mention once), NL Mitra and various professors (ironically, mostly TLC products who never went abroad).

There are solid indications that Dr. Rajendra Prasad U.P. National Law University, Prayagraj will begin its operations from August 2023. It is reported that the candidates shortlisted for the post of its first Vice Chancellor were called for interactions on 25th July at Prayagraj.

There is a speculation among the knowledgleble sources that its first Vice Chancellor would join very shortly. This NLU is likely to have its first V.C. a female from a law academy located in North India.

Someone tell Sudhir to watch Oppenheimer. The movie shows how Oppenheimer, initially focused on theory, did not think fission was possible, but he was later proved wrong when his colleagues informed him that scientists in Germany had done so. Similarly, Sudhir should know that only studying Dworkin or Granville Austin will not make you a lawyer —- far from it. You need to know how to draft a constitutional petition, which court to approach, court rules, how to file, how to argue, etc.

It's never late to get married. Yes the probability gets on decreasing. But even when u r not married. There is a whole new avenue of life which u can discover, which 99% of people can't. I am 36 and I'm not worried if I ll get married or not. But a suggestion, don't be so feminist that a man hesitate to approach u. Like a female, a male also struggles with many issues, he even can't share his feelings with his friends, as male frnds are always casual and will laugh at each other. He is alone since start, care to find a person and support him emotionally, he ll fall for u within days

Fourth year - Got a call from the HR a week ago saying that IF I am shortlisted, I'll get a call to schedule an interview. Hella strange call. When should call to inquire about this?

I have to submit this time-sensitive questionnaire for another internship in October which depends entirely on my confirmation from LKS.

What is the difference between the two kinds of practices?

Someone mentioned on another thread that Projects/Infra and TMT are not transactional practice areas. (https://www.legallyindia.com/convos/topic/271720-partner-with-pqe-15-years-whats-the-take-home-pay-in-a-t1#comment-271848)

Why everybody seems to avoid capital markets practice area and is generally the last choice of everyone when it is an area which tops the list of lateral transferability/migration abroad esp US,UK,Singapore. I understand the practice here is dull and clerical. But that is true for most of the corporate practices. We all are here for money and better standard of living which is possible through capital markets here in India and more so by moving abroad.

Why do people leave capital markets altogether when they can move abroad after 3-4 years of PQE that too without a foreign LLM?

Please answer this query.

Thank you.

Second year law,

NLUD

For some clarity - most T1 firms, at least at NLS, have not shortlisted applicants who have previously interned with them. Their rationale is if an applicant failed to secure a PPO from their assessment internship, they don’t want to waste time interviewing the same people at day zero.

Ain't that bad of a place, especially if you are from Delhi. Anyone who is willing to put in the efforts is doing well. But yeah most of them are opting for litigation - have joined prominent chambers.

If you are hell bent on getting a corporate job comfortably, then retake CLAT - age is really not a factor, trust me - and join a T1 NLU. Otherwise, push yourself here only. Also, after a few years post law school - 1 or 2 usually - you can easily shift to corporate.

And, judiciary, too, is a good option. The culture is there. I don't prefer it, because competitive exams are risky and unpredictable terrain, but you do you.

Also, personal observation, the peer group is really good this time. Your batch and the one immediately above you seem to have potential. Some of them have infact left T1 and T2 NLUs to be here - illogical, imo, but the point is that the peer group is good. So, don't worry, you will figure it out.

This is so true. This is why private skill development courses are thriving while colleges charge so much but fail to produce employable graduates

Can Sudhir take the bottom of the clat ranks and give this foundational training and make people employable? The answer is no. Easy to lecture when you get concentrated talent who will succeed one way or other anyway - irrespective of the education they get

Agree. I never recommend anyone any NLU below where RGNUL and NLUO stand right now. Out of this range, I am also doubtful for RML and HNLU (my perception of these two comes from 2019. Apologies if they have been doing better in recent years).

I always recommend any decent college in Delhi or Mumbai as it would give you ample of flexibility to try other ways in which you can move forward. I totally understand your position and how you must be feeling being left with limited options to pitch yourself for internships and to get practical exposure in the legal field.

Dear LI batch of 2024, please have hope. I am seeing a lot of threads here about the lack of placement for day zero/day one. PLEASE HAVE HOPE. Keep applying to firms and cold emailing. But do not ever use contacts, they will not help you at all at this stage and will im fact only hinder growth as you will be viewed as incompetent.

And yet. The nlu model which focuses on teaching first principles and yknow - the law- including yes sociology and history and economics. Has worked. NLS grads have all done well for themselves and found good employment ? Surely if it was such a terrible useless education they would be failing in the workplace ?

He says he doesn’t care about specific industry trends - and that’s honestly a good thing. Chasing excellence is better than chasing trends.

He’s tried very hard to improve clinical education at nls - it’s been better than ever before and certainly better than any other NLU. He’s not opposed to including that stuff - but clearly he thinks teaching craft without teaching the law is gonna make only for very good clerks.

And we should take what he has to say about the best universities seriously considering he’s taught at them/ studied at them, instead of the rantings of undergrads on an anon message board.

Inappropriate language (which that was not) does not make a comment trollish. Trollish content, or such content as tends to derail from the merits of the discussion at hand to superfluous things such as taking offence over the word 'ass', makes a comment trollish. Irrespective, you have not answered the question that was posed to you by that person.

Several people in Delhi have done it.

You will need to network HARD. But keep in mind networking/socially gelling by judicial officers is frowned upon. Your image would suffer. You can only do it well before joining the services and after resigning. Do it for a year or so after resigning, have a steady source of cases, and if you are good (i.e. you can get reliefs), you will succeed.

Many people are unsuccessful in getting reliefs (coz frankly they are not good lawyers nor knowledgeable, they just happen to have cleared a competitive exam by luck) and they only have a mediocre practice even after having been a judge.

Your post is problematic at so many levels.

Firstly, let's address the "this is not how teachers dress in 2023". Not sure about 2023, but ten years ago when I graduated from a school, that is how most of my teachers dressed. The school is in Delhi.

Secondly, portraying them as such is not inherently regressive nor patriarchal. It's an illustration of the reality. The image neither advocates for wearing such clothing nor, in any manner, suggests that this is an ideal classroom. It is the picture of a classroom, not necessarily an ideal classroom.

Thirdly, the assumption that saree, mangalsutra and bindi are worn only out of patriarchal norms is actually denying the women the agency to choose their clothing.

Yes, patriarchy exists. Yes, in a lot of places sarees, mangalsutras & bindis are embodiment of patriarchy. But this ain't it.

Missed it and rightly so.

Christ has had a huge administration problem (discussed heavily on LI in the past), invigilators during online exams making inappropriate comments, and frankly the quality of education being imparted is mediocre.

Plus any institution which enforces dictatorial norms such as frowning upon western clothing or imposing fines for conduct which is normal everywhere else, is unfit to be on any ranking list, period.

I am a Tier-3 NLU student currently studying in 5th sem.

I have four internship offer for upcoming internship break.

Out of which two offers are from a

IPR Firm of which one is a reputed tier 2 IPR Firm and another one is a boutique reputed IP firm from Chennai.

And a remote tier 2 technology firm offer.

I had given confirmation to the Tier-2 IPR Firm a month ago.

But have now received a internship offer from a corporate tier-4 law firm.

I am confused as to shall I go to that tier-2 IPR Firm of Delhi(where I have already sent a confirmation) or shall I go to that tier-4 Corporate law firm of Ahemdabad.

Further , I wish to make a career in Corporate field only.

So the two conflicts which are going in my mind are whether I shall go for Brand or Work profile.

If I go by brand Tier 2 IPR Firm is the answer.

Otherwise if I wish to gain a experience of corporate law than that tier 4 law firm is good.

P.S: I have already done a boutique IPR internship.I have some reservations as far as IPR is concerned to pursue it as a career.

Please 🥺 kindly guide me out.

Some people learned words like "regressive", "Patriarchal" and "Misogynist" and never stopped using them in every fking sentence.

I don't find anything regressive about them. I passed my 12th a couple of years back and most of the teachers at least at my school, used to wear similar clothes.

Let's admit this guys! The hiring freeze is real. Every University is experiencing this. The firms had hired a lot from the batch of 23 which is why they are not that interested in hiring from our batch. The RCC at NLS has compensated it to some extent by bringing in more firms than the number of firms that usually come for Day Z. I believe that Nalsar and NUJS have done the same as well.

The bottom line is that the T1s are hiring less which is why T2 firms that pay similarly to T1s are coming to T1 NLUs. Students from T1 NLUs may not feel the effects of the hiring freeze much as everyone will get placed in some firm or the other with 15LPA packages but people from lower NLUs or private Universities like SLS-P will face the effects of the hiring freeze.

Starting out in the range of 6-10LPA is not as bad as you are making it out to be. Start out at a T2-T3 firm and then shift laterally to T1 after 2-3 years. If you had to get a top job right out of college then you should have taken CLAT again. Everyone knows about the shoddy placements in NLUs

I don't think HR shortlists like that, team allocation happens after confirmation.

First these firms keep retaining those with contacts, then lament on bad interns and shed stipends and PPO numbers, thereby leading to a vicious cycle. This is exactly the downfall of firms like kuthra, maraf and 3legal

Almost all of them are citing advocates who are famous on Twitter or other social media. Not necessarily means that they are not good but it is the representative of the fact that the people here mostly never had any real action and are just basing their opinion on the perception they have made.

From a fresher at nujs, I can assure you it has nothing to do with academic standards falling or anything like that. One girl left for Oxford Law, one Pune guy for SLS Pune. One guy has CS offers from Tier 2 IITs and Tier 1 NITs and will probably end up leaving. Only one person left for NLUJ because of the hostel.
Infrastructure is shoddy, but it's not a driving factor in making people leave.

Don't listen to people who will now come giving fake stars about Samvad and try to fool you that it pays in the range of 12L (a specific someone from a tier 3 college)

The fact is that they pay 40k in Mumbai (have personally seen the retainer offer email of a senior)

Phoenix is much much better

I feel like the NLU (especially in the tier-2/tier-3) tag is genuinely overhyped. Being from a tier-3 nlu (down east) I feel that I am not getting any internships and my friends at my this college are all ambition-less. I am one of the toppers of this college and I feel boot-licking at tier-3 nlus is an all time high. The same goes for tier-2 nlus as well.

In internships , the people with connections and some people with tier-1 nlu background are getting all the recognition.

I regret not retaking clat again but I didn’t realise that this would be such a disaster. After working my a** off in college I will be totally pushed to a job involving a paycheque or max to max 10 lakhs and that too only few of us will be getting it. Others will be unemployed.

Hi Everyone,

I am currently in the 11th grade. I have started preparing for CLAT Dec’24 by joining Career Launcher in my town. I want to understand what should I do more to prepare every day? I have aimed to spend approximately 2 hours per day to prepare but I am not sure where to start, since the coaching classes are going on its own pace, what resources should I use to study/practice daily on my own? I am currently trying to do as much math & english on my own. I have also started reading newspaper daily and have started ‘Word Power Made Easy’ book.

Please let me know what resources can I use to prepare for subjects like logic, math, english & legal on my own. Would be grateful to receive any help. Thank you.