Your (probably valid) desire not to bear their emotional load all the time does not negate their experience. They may have serious mental problems resulting from dysphoria or the world's reaction to it or coincidentally. But then what? Does that confluence mean that they are simply attention seeking and that they should "get over" their gender identity? Some people have near incurable depression (or even physical illnesses) and their friends and family and caregivers may feel a tremendous emotional burden as a result. Should they simply "cheer up" or "get better"? I think that you are mixing up cause and effect.

From Bhavish:

On @Linkedin

, @Microsoft

and their wokeness. As an Indian institution, Ola is for genuine actions on diversity. We run one of the largest women only automotive plants. Not 1 out of 10 lines, or a small section, but the whole plant! Almost 5000 women now and will grow to tens of thousands in the coming years. And regarding gender inclusivity, we don’t need lectures from western companies on how to be inclusive. Our culture didn’t need pronouns to be inclusive for thousands of years. .... On the other hand, the pronouns issue I wrote about is a woke political ideology of entitlement which doesn’t belong in India. I wouldn’t have waded into this debate but clearly Linkedin has presumed Indians need to have pronouns in our life, and that we can’t criticise it. They will bully us into agreeing with them or cancel us out. And if they can do this to me, I’m sure the average user stands no chance. As a founder and CEO, this western DEI system has a major impact on my business as it grows an entitlement mindset in our professional lives and I will fight it.

https://twitter.com/bhash/status/1789217759378993611

Well, well well! Our boy has now announced that he is cutting ties with Microsoft (parent company of LinkedIn) for censoring his “pronoun illness” post and is starting his own tech platform to compete with Microsoft. Also praises Ayodhya temple.

Will this now trigger a culture war in corporate India, with the right-wing/heteronormative/ 100 day work week camp of tech bros seeking Modi’s support?

https://m.economictimes.com/tech/technology/olas-bhavish-aggarwal-snaps-ties-with-microsoft-azure-in-stand-against-western-tech/amp_articleshow/110033377.cms

Do pcm if your only aim is to go abroad. Through engineering, finding a job overseas is much easier. Law is very restrictive in terms of shifting abroad (although there a few select big firms across London, New York and Singapore that hire India qualified lawyers); but again this number is very less.

You want to know why theyre all privileged? do you know what luxury beliefs are? read rob henderson.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2024/02/20/troubled-rob-henderson-luxury-beliefs-review/

sorry- why is this marked contested? are we saying that directly quoting hijras from news reports that are linked is not enough? shouldnt we be listening to the lived experiences of trans people?/s. Is the all india hijra kalyan sabha a radical right wing conservative organisation? or you simply not like what theyre saying because it goes against your ideology?

why should what is normally used be they them rather than sex based? if non binary/ trans people are such a minority why should everyone else be misgendered to cater to them?

Do you really think anyone looked at his photo and couldnt tell if he was a man or a woman? that men and women are indistinguishable on sight? this isnt a good faith argument.

Exactly- evidence of people telling a doctor or a scientist that they are non binary- there is nothing verifiable about that all. I could go around telling people im non binary- that doesnt make it so.

gay is about verifiable external behavior- they have sex with people of the same sex. Homosexuality is a real thing that we've found in every mammal. Nonbinary is purely an internal state of mind- a thing we havent found in other mammals. There is no way to verify. Gender identity is a very different kind of claim than sexuality. It worries me that you feel safe censoring people when you dont understand the basics of what kinds of claims are being made.

If someone claimed to me that they were gay but they continued to only be in heterosexual relationships- yes I would dispute if it was a reality based claim. I have a friend who claims to be bisexual but only ever dates men- she never dates women at all. I should have the ability to question why that is and whether she finds other women attractive even or if shes just claiming that identity for political clout.

No one is obligated to accept as gospel truth everything a trans person might say. To argue that they should because that is "kind" is essentially threatening social sanction for compliance.

Hindu- any religion- is about a belief system. Literally not scientifically provable. I can discuss how unbelievable I find the existence of flying monkeys or dudes who can turn water into wine or winged horses to be because we have free speech and we recognise that its okay for people to not subscribe to this belief system. If nonbinary people wanted to claim they were also a belief system- a religion- which i think is actually right- I wouldnt have any obligation to affirm their beliefs. I dont have any obligation to chant "allah hu Akbar" or "Jai Shri Ram' or " christ is king".

Many people on the internet claim they have multiple personalities and many people claim they have tourettes and many people claim they are a different race and many people claim they are a different age. It is not a necessary condition for a bona fide discussion to take their claims at face value. I am arguing in good faith- I actually have thought about it a long long time and cannot make sense of it. I
It is not in bad faith to argue that whatever experience one might be having - it might not actually be real. Leave trans aside- anorexics really really feel like they are fat. So much so that they starve themselves to death. By your logic- denying "the reality of their experience" - or doubting their beliefs would be unacceptable. How is trans/ nonbinary different?

If we are seeing that so many of these people claiming non binary identities are suffering from severe mental illnesses that in all other respects alter their perceptions of reality- I dont see why gender identity is sacrosanct.

Clearly people disagree with you. And if youre gonna keep censoring based on your belief system - and not on what is sayable within the parameters of free speech- you shouldnt be a moderator.

I'm not saying what you're going through isn't difficult. The problem with your thinking is that you are attributing behaviours you don't like to one characteristic of the individual, that they are non binary, and then you are suggested that all non binary people are like this.

Firstly, all the non binary people I know are extremely kind and gracious about mis gendering slip ups. They are not about people who persistently and deliberately misgender them after being corrected but that is understandable.

Secondly, your people are probably reacting to their environment. Everything you are saying now was said 20 years ago about gay and lesbian people. Being bullied and having to erase essential parts of who they are got to them. It was not their fault. Anyone would react to being treated that way. It is your institution's fault for not creating a better environment for them. It is also your institution's fault for not extending support to them as they struggle.

If you are too depleted to help, you can compassionately express your need for time and space. Letting resentment build and then engaging in what is effectively hate speech against a whole group isn't good for you and it definitely isn't good for the person you refer to.

And finally, no they don't all come from privilege. The ones who don't just suffer in silence because intersectionality makes everything worse. You probably have no idea who they are and may be saying these very hurtful, dehumanizing things to them.

the normal rule in the UK is that a PG degree is required with 65% in dissertation for admission to PhD, however, the PGR director may make exceptions for a candidate if the supervisors so recommend and the candidate may show experience equivalent to PG, this is extremely rare and I dont know anyone from the nlu ecosystem who has been able to do this in the UK

There is evidence of the accounts of people. Do you disbelieve someone who is gay, for instance, until you get a brain scan that proves they are gay?

Agree this is a complex issue, but so is the mind and so are humans. There may be debate to be had about how the medical establishment and society should deal with this on a policy level, but if you start by denying the reality of the experience of all trans people, this is not a bona fide basis to the discussion.

Please keep on topic and on good faith.

Opinions are fine but not when they veer close to hate speech. Try replacing the category in question with 'gay', 'women', 'mental illness', 'Hindus', etc in your sentences.

Yes, there are debates to be had but do not have those debates while completely denying the lived and documented reality of many in such absolute terms, and accept that your anecdotal experience may not be the totality of what's out the there either.

In short, try to be kind. That's not about freedom of speech, it's about fostering genuine debate and making LI a more pleasant place.

if people here at NUJS are good at any but one thing, it is to daunt and intimidate others. Yes, some sort of rivalry does go on between the BA and the B.Sc batch, but who cares? The admin and SJA are bound to be neutral to you. You'd get to be a part of every activity on the main campus, added on to the privilege of having more spacious rooms and a better mess on your campus. Just gel up well with your batchmates and the seniors that aren't cocky (quite a few of them are) and you'll be just fine. At the end of the day, you'll be milking the same brand name as the rest of us.

There are like several Muslim majority countries where secularism is thrown out the window and governance is as per the religion only. Wherever theyre not the majority everybody cries their heart out for them and gives them appeasement and special status.

I don’t understand this at all. Why are people so blind?

This is not hate speech in anyway. Oppression of any people is evil, but no one community should be given so much bhaav over others too. Please stop it.

hows life as an nlu graduate on these metrics-
work life balance, daily hours, stress, going abroad
the consensus online seems to be that lawyers, even from top NLUs have terrible work life balance
i wont work in a firm as those seem to be particularly stressful, im aiming for working in a foreign company through NLU placements
is it viable as a lawyer to move to the west?

my main aim for a career is time to myself, security, and going abroad
should i grind hard for a top nlu or do pcm instead

There’s no medical evidence. When I say it doesn’t exist - I mean I have doubt and disbelief about the category existing- not about the existence of people claiming this identity.

When you say there’s medical evidence - you mean there are people who have told their doctors or scientists they are non binary. You

Don’t mean there’s any sort of test that they’ve taken that proves they have non binary brains while the rest of us have binary brains.

It's so wonderful that you think you know more than Judith Butler based on some randomly collected news articles that validate your biases. If you want to read academically rigorous sources, there are a few below. But please feel free to come back with stories from Sports Illustrated or wherever else you cherry pick your anecdotes from.

The hijra community of South Asia is a group of individuals who identify as transgender, intersex, or gender-nonconforming in some way and live in a distinct community often separate from cisgender society. https://www.auajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1097/01.JU.0001008828.35887.de.11

### in Hindu society, people of non-binary gender expression have played important roles for over 2000 years.

Called the third gender, evidence for their existence in Hindu society can be found in Hindu holy texts like the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, where Hindu hero Arjuna becomes the third gender. Third gender people have often been revered throughout South Asian history https://rpl.hds.harvard.edu/religion-context/case-studies/gender/third-gender-and-hijras

As colonial depictions were superseded in the twentieth century, the hijra was reclaimed as a prominent nonwestern ‘third gender’ or transgender group resisting the western schema of sexual dimorphism.12 Recent ethnographies by Lawrence Cohen and Gayatri Reddy critique earlier pathologisingoressentialisingconstructionsofthehijra,describingthehijraasa complexidentity of marginalised male-born (or rarely intersex) transvestites who combine kinship-based social organisation with Islamic and Hindu religious practices.13 Hijras may undergo castration and penectomy, which confers higher status within intra-community hierarchies
An Epistemology of Collusion: Hijras, Kothis and the Historical (Dis)continuity of Gender/Sexual Identities in Eastern India Aniruddha Dutta

Lmao. The guy from NALSAR who is actually going to FMS is not IPM but BALLB.

Also, barely anyone from IPM made it to T1 B-Schools. Mods, please do your due diligence before marking anything contested. In fact, the question itself should be marked contested because it's not true.

Applies to Indian law firms as well?? Will peeps at firms like C**, S**, T******* and A** please opine?

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-bankers-death-at-35-sparks-outrage-over-wall-streets-toxic-work-culture-5637321

Everyone here is recognising peoples personhood. What we’re having legitimate doubts about is whether claims about not being either sex or gender are real. We’re having doubts about the category these people claim they are. Not that they are people. To conflate those two is kind of awful and manipulative.

When women are denied personhood they are raped and forced to become baby making machines. Whatever mis-gendering is - it’s not that.

I read butler - it doesn’t make sense still. Will you answer questions then ? About the butler article ?

The students are indeed competitive, but isn’t that a good thing? There is a little toxicity and some amounts of double dealing but remember you will face toxicity and double dealing in the industry too, so why not get used to it?

Coming to the point of BSc students being treated unfairly; this is absolutely not the case. In fact non ba llb students get the most privileges like better rooms, permission to sit in the better areas of the library etc. Once you come here you will notice that there is even a particular water cooler in the acad bock which only non-ballb students get to use.

@LI - lot of censoring going on here, can you please publish the comments even if you're going to mark them as trollish? This is not law firm related (or even specific to anyone) so people aren't going to come at you with lawsuits. The only way to actually educate people and have all of us understand each other is to have open conversation. Cancelling them (or me) isn't going to help bring anyone into the fold

This is not untrue. This platform and all state NLUs are infested with humanities students, and they think law is the fiefdom of those with humanities backgrounds. They detest any other domain like BBA-LLB (H) and BSc.LLB (H). The only way to deal with them is to silence them with your performance. Let your performance do the talking. Good luck.

Its great performance - they had to grow 3x to reach 100 cr but they grew 2x, which is not easy to do while remaining profitable

They have doubled revenue like clockwork for last 4 years, and as the base gets bigger it will be harder to keep growing at such a scorching pace

OP here
Hi there, I'm not saying it's tiring to "adapt", I'm saying it's tiring to be an emotional punching bag. Can you address the anger I've talked about? I get that hurt people hurt other people, but I'm done. Did you see the comment someone else has made on this thread about non-binary people being exceptionally suicidal? Have you had to deal with this yourself? The first few times, anyone with a shred of humanity will treat it as an emergency. But what after that? When this has happened 10 times, I cannot do anything that will actually make a difference. I can recommend that they visit a psychiatrist and a therapist, but as a student with a busy life I can't perpetually play therapist to these damaged individuals. I have neither the time nor the emotional bandwidth. Let's be realistic, we don't have the mental health infrastructure in India to do anything about it. This is not a rhetorical question, what am I supposed to do?

I am not saying that it is difficult to use the correct pronouns. I've done that (fearfully, because these explosive people are going to come at me if I make a mistake. I haven't even accidentally used the wrong pronouns, because I'm very careful, but god forbid someone else does because my day is also going to be ruined). I am saying it is difficult to constantly make accommodations for non-binary people at the cost of my own sanity. When I say accommodations, I mean constantly making excuses for their bad behaviour because "Oh they have it so bad". I'm sure they have it bad, but that's no excuse for shitty behaviour.

While we're being completely honest on this thread, can we talk about how all the non-binary people come from privilege? I've never met a non-binary person who isn't well off. What's up with that?

Lastly, I want to say that being liberal inherently requires being open to new thoughts and ideas, and to thoughts and ideas that are different from your own. When I make these comments about non-binary people, it comes from having dealing with them and being tired of constantly playing therapist. I didn't sign up for that, and I don't know how to opt out. Before being thrust into such a role, I would have also been vehement in my support for non-binary people. I would have said, "What's it to you that they have different pronouns and life experiences? They don't have to prove to you that their existence is valid." Now, because I am forced to deal with a lot of crap that I don't want to deal with, I have these questions. Instead of scolding me for having a thought that does not fit into what you deem politically correct, it would be great if you could actually engage with what I've said. Thanks!

Hey folks,

Penultimate year law student here. I have secured a PPO at a T1 recently and starting to wonder about LLM prospects. Is applying for programmes abroad right now a good idea? Would top UK programmes allow me to defer the offer to gain work experience? If not, does it get more/less difficult to get into these programmes once I start working?

In the alternate, how do firms react to requests for deferring one's joining by the length of their LLM, is it an outright rejection or any possibility for negotiation?

Thank you for your responses!

Just because something is 'false' doesnt mean it should be censored ?? Plus, not expressing my opinion, but there exist many competing studies and opinions on whether their is scientific basis for non binary being a legitimate gender identity. Since when has moderation on legally india become about moderators imposing their view and removing anything they disagree with??

If you are going to the university to learn and do well in your chosen career, then all you need to do is attend the classes regularly, do the background readings, talk to your seniors and faculty about how to handle your academic and co-curricular activities well, connect with the alumni, opt for useful credit courses, focus on your grades and do your internships. Let everything else be secondary and of little relevance to you.

Honestly I can just give you suggestions on how to live in Noida

(1) Try to get your vehicle because metro aside noida does not have a solid public transport system but it has awesome roads

(2) Avoid restraunts pack your own lunch the restarunt culture at noida is insane and you will be broke (and diabetic) in no time

(3) Try to find an apartment near your firm

(4) If you are a women buy a pepper spray and if possible other self protection gadgets. Noida is not as bad as people may make it out to be but it isn't heaven either just stay on your guard when in public (basically Delhi but less populated)

Also be ready for a lot of intracity travel between Ghaziabad, Gurugram. Delhi etc etc

Tons have. What’s the confusion? You need to do an LLM in India, and for most other jurisdictions. The odd case may find themselves jumping across from LLB to PhD in some niche program abroad. However, you will likely not receive the funding needed to do four/five years of research.

Yeah Project Topics to word cell with no real time contribution to the Society. Been there, done that. This is what happening for a long time in India. Rather Countries like China, Vietnam, SEA, etc countries which didn't bother about these Concepts, did true reform despite of short term struggles and have changed lives of Millions including the so labelled Minorities.

CS and CAs are replaceable too. Infact it the understanding you're applying for a lawyers replacement is to be implemented, most jobs as they stand today would be replaced. Relax and adopt AI to fasten yourself and let time take its course. If you are willing to upgrade then no job is going to get replaced as it is with little improvisation.

Hello Seniors,

I am a student who is about to join WBNUJS this year for BSc LLB degree.

I have heard rumours about BSc being treated unfairly by admin and students body also and also a very competitive culture at the college generally which leads to many toxic incidents. Can you shed light on this and how to deal with it? I have also heard that there is a lot of alienation of certain individuals for no reason at all. This is scary to hear.

I am scared to join because of rumours about this toxic and dangerous environment, especially for BSc students and also within batches and I would really like reassurance/tips/truth on how to deal with this.

Mods please approve and seniors please help as I am unsure about choosing a college due to this and do not know how to approach a senior for this matter as scared I am.

2 years for a tier 2 and 5 years for a tier 1 but it depends from firm to firm to be very honest. "Firms like Argus, Wadia, Juris Corp, SNG and Link Legal are known to train their lawyers very well in the banking space" is what I have heard from senior colleagues for lateral hiring in Mumbai.

In some firms, they do, yes. In some places, they take you on as a 'paralegal' or a 'long-term' intern where you are essentially doing the same work as your nlu-counterparts, but the firms can justify paying less on the basis of having different compensation packages for different roles.