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Is Mukul that big to be mean to a former home minister?
I think Sudhir has it right in many ways โ the batch expansion is well-intended, the plans to improve faculty quality make sense, and in all honesty, I personally enjoy the 'rigour' of NLS.
But when 'rigour' means nonsense handwritten assignments to combat AI, when batch expansion is not accompanied by concomitant infrastructural upgrades, and when faculty quality is diluted due to bloating in batch size, it is very very hard to support Sudhir.
โฎโฎโฎ folks - goss please??
Even if you want to continue in that area, wouldn't it be better to go for an MBA later?
Curious though!
(30s because more time for mentoring? thoughts?)
Looking for genuine leads please first generation lawyer here.
Praying we're the ones that the teacher wouldn't call
We would stare at each other
'Cause we were always in trouble
And all the cool kids did their own thing
I was on the outside, always looking in
Yeah, I was there but I wasn't
They never really cared if I was in
We all need that someone
Who gets you like no one else
Right when you need it the most
We all need a soul to rely on
A shoulder to cry on
A friend through the highs and the lows
My mom told me that when we get older, we will regret it. ๐ข
And if you have a problem with neoliberalism why are you working with a corporate law firm, as you say you are?? Pure hypocrisy!
Background: Fresh graduate (Bo'26) from a T-2 Nlu, Average acads and co-curriculars, CV is Cap marks and Securities law oriented, did 2 callback/assessment internships at reputed firms in this practice area but was not fortunate enough to get a PPO.
Future consideration: I'm now thinking of getting into tax litigation as I have in the initial years of my law school took some experience in the same and enjoyed it.
Query: Unsure which practice area is better viz., Cap Marks or Tax in the long run. My factors of consideration are mainly: higher pay/money in the long run, exit options viz. Inhouse or consideration of experience further post MBA, International or abroad opportunity chances.
Ps - with Tax hereby I mean Direct Tax and International tax practice and I am as of now also inclined to pursue CFA or CAIA in near future, mainly to switch from law.
I will be highly grateful for any guidance on this. Thanks in advance!๐
Now, commercialisation: it is a crapshot made using a sling owned by someone else.
The problem is that the market is flooded with AI wrappers doing the same thing, connecting the Legally India API, Claude API, or whatever cheap AI model they could find or got credits for from the company at the time. Now, if I do the same, I will be offering a subscription for โน1500-3000 a month, but then the output quality will degrade so much that it will become useless for everyone and anyone using it, no one will be using it, plus I will still be making nothing but losses as the margins are very thin at this price point. It will be the 100th AI legaltech company, claiming to revolutionize the field.
To do something truly good, Harvey AI type, I will have to incorporate a company, hire people, and regular run of the mill engineers aren't going to cut it. I am talking about top-tier talent, SDE 3 and above. These guys are in extremely high demand, so they'll charge even more to enter something this un-proven with someone who doesn't have a background in tech, if at all. At the top, for building everything, what I did was essentially make a tent. To make an enterprise product, you're looking at a building made of concrete that follows western building code. Handling 20-30k concurrent enterprise users, load balancing, cyber security at that scale is not just beyond my expertise level, but my comprehension as well. Now the building part involves a frontend and a very robust backend that isn't held together by duct tape and my hopes, and actual contracts with data providers. On top of that, I will have to make a database of my own that will have to get much bigger, deeper and nearly error-free, and would require constant updating. Think of daily updates from every High Court and District Court, making my own headnotes, summaries and stuff like that. EC2/Lambda instances to run the whole thing, and for AI models, Google Vertex or AWS Bedrock, with region/cross-region inference due to data residency requirements. This, by the way, was the least of my problems, as it is manageable.
The bigger worry is that I will have to subscribe to either the reserved tier or Provisioned Throughput tier. What both of these mean is guaranteed compute capacity no matter the load, which sounds good, but there is a very huge but: I will have to pay for the capacity even if anyone is not using it, I will be paying the same amount regardless. And you cannot use demand-based tier because those institutions who are paying good money are not going to tolerate downtime because your cloud provider ran out of compute, which happens often enough that you need to be plan for it.
I had an idea where I thought about using audio streams from virtual court meetings, converting them to text, linking them with the cause list and making a near-instantaneous court status tracker and data collector. But that would have required permissions from courts, it would have been prohibitively expensive and prone to errors as well, though it would have led to a great database.
Harvey AI is also facing similar issues in countries where they don't have a lot of customers: hardware sitting idle in data centres, still paying for it, making losses. But they charge $1,200 per seat per month with a minimum of 20 seats, so that comes to roughly $288,000 annually, and you can somehow make it work at that price point. It also needs to be taken into consideration that they raised over a billion dollars and are still burning money. Their token cost is higher as well due to the exact same reason I mentioned above: dormant compute.
For compliance, in order to sell to any decent organisation internationally you will need GDPR compliance, DPDP for India, ISO, and last but not the least, SOC Type II. SOC Type II deserves some extra focus: it is very important, costly and time consuming. To put things into perspective, this is the kind of certification American companies spend thousands of dollars on, and an entire company was set up in the US that claimed to use AI in the process to hasten it, called Delve.co . These guys are doing nothing but fraud by forging reports, and start-ups knew and were complicit. This should explain how time consuming SOC Type II is.
Now, even if I somehow secured funding and cleared all these hoops before going bankrupt, this business model is unsustainable and very short-lived at best. These companies are entirely reliant on other companies for the most important part, that is intelligence. You can make servers with enough money, but you cannot spring up a model out of thin air. I know someone will say they can use an open weight model, but the problem is not just that you are banking on Chinese companies continuing to release them it is that you only need one geopolitical event, one export control regime, or one strategic pivot for that dependency to collapse overnight. The probability is not even the point. The consequence of being wrong with no fallback is. And as of now closed models are still better.
The free cash flow of hyperscalers is coming to an end, and as that comes down, the funding for the labs will also start to dry up. But it is actually worse than that. Hyperscalers are simultaneously bleeding FCF on capex and not getting the physical capacity they are paying for on schedule. Cancellations have quadrupled, the total capacity under construction has declined for the first time since 2020, and transformers and electrical equipment sourced from China are holding up billion-dollar projects by a year or more. The compute supply that labs depend on is more constrained than the headline spending numbers suggest, and the return on that capex keeps getting pushed out. You cannot keep up the pace for very long. Then, when they get hungry for more money, because you cannot just keep making losses when your funding pipeline has dried up, the first entities they will go after are these middlemen. Not because they are small consumers, but because their entire business depends on them, and that is exactly why they have no leverage.
Think of movie distributors and how they twist the arms of cinema chains. They know PVR is sitting with around 1,750 screens that need to play something on them. They know they are desperate, so they do that, even though film distributors need them too. Customers are also not dying to go to PVR because of OTT and Telegram, the alternatives don't have to be perfect they just have to be cheap and good, so they are getting hammered from the supply and demand side. I know institutional contracts don't work like that, but I believe this analogy gets what I am trying to get through. The problem is that once these companies start to get squeezed, they can either absorb it or offload it to the customer and risk them migrating to their in-house tool, and if more customers leave, your costs increase, thus creating this deadly cycle. They aren't able to turn a profit even now; the future looks bleak.
Another problem is that you're nothing but a middleman, and if anything the internet has taught us, it is that the middleman gets crushed sooner or later. To be more precise about it the specific thing that is lethal here is the narrowing capability gap. As frontier models get better at legal reasoning out of the box, and vibe-coding the delta between using Claude directly and using a wrapper built on top of it shrinks toward zero. Right now every company is focusing on coding benchmarks and making the best IDEs and CLI tools, but the day they conquer that market they will come for this one with all their engineering experience and might. Plus, as models are getting more capable, their ability to sell simple solutions is short-lived at best. Think of what happened to CRUD developers: you cannot bank on complexity being the only thing keeping you alive.
The only thing that can save them in the long term is government protection, which in my opinion is very unlikely, as these guys aren't necessarily serving a purpose. Though I can be wrong as well. The thing that can truly save them is proprietary data and in my opinion this is the only thing that can save them. By data I mean a corpus of cases with their own headnotes, books, reports, articles and stuff like that, and not having to rely on third-party services for data. The issues are so big that you cannot just solve them. Palantir benefits from AI because of how good their management software is and how deeply it is integrated everywhere. With AI wrappers, I don't think the same can be said. I am making a very crude prediction so take it with a grain of salt they have a life of 10-15 years in my opinion.
Lastly, and this is the least important point: I feel it is very wrong to charge for plumbing that someone can do themselves with some learning. But it is not very important, as I am not really faced with the choice here, so saying how I would have acted when presented with the opportunity is rather abstract. What I can do, and will do, is share what I have built.
What all can I expect in an interview?
. This the exact plan ( I have dot six months)
Plan starts: may 16th.
Clat this year is on December 6th.
- 2 hours of legal reasoning
- 1 hour of critical reasoning
- 1 hour of analytical reasoning
- 1 hour of maths
- 4 hours of GK and static GK ( 3 hours for current affairs because I have backlog + 1 hour for static GK)
Also for English: daily reading and vocab + grammer. Done during free time majorly. goal: 1 Novel/book per week + daily editorials and analysis of the same.
legal reasoning: 1 hour of static legal GK and concepts + 1 hour of timed practice and analysis.
analytical reasoning: slow solving of puzzles of different types in the first two months and then timed sectionals with analysis for the next 4 months
maths: basic concepts in the first 2 months while slow solving caseletes and then timed caseletes/DI + analysis and revision in the next 4 months
critical reasoning: basic concepts in the first one month and then timed practice and analysis within 1 hour slot from then onward.
+ 2 weekly well analysed mocks. On those days: analysis of mocks and no legal reasoning or critical reasoning. I'll be noting my mock mistakes in a log book and spending 2-2.5 hours on analysis.
By May 16th I'll be done with roughly 40+ well analysed and in-depth mocks. In the final 20 days I'll just be doing 1 daily mock with analysis and gk + static + legal static revision.
What exactly is the point? Are you trying to feel successful by association?
Use this energy in your life and your work/studies.
Regardless, if you choose to retake CLAT, be confident in your own decision. This is not a one-off instance. From now on, you will have to make many other decisions that will literally shape your life. No one who is criticising or appreciating your decision will be there in the making of it. So, your decision and your will are all that matter. Further, whatever you choose, choose empathy for yourself. You are more than just a failure. This will help you recognise your worth and leverage it to build a successful life, both in terms of happiness and money.
Please take care!
I am planning to leave for Germany for a month to visit my sister residing there. Would it be possible to maybe do an internship which would add any value to my profile. I am pondering over this rn and I want to know what is it like? Has anyone been there and done it before??
Traditional standards of academic excellence and hard work>>> Gen Z standards of cutting corners and entitlement.
Older generations built NLSIU and know whatโs good. Donโt need sermons from bratty teenagers.
And itโs not just posh and elite people. Any upper middle class person from the GC category.
We have compromised meritocracy and excellence in the name of DEI.
But yes, predominantly the ones who are chosen have historically been tier-1 NLU students.
Lex Favios sounds like the name of a law firm in the Harry Potter universe, no offense!
1. They do not pay bonus. The 30-40% bonus component in the offer letter is a sham. Not a single rupee is paid.
2. They do 'hire and fire' - they'll hire at start of the year and then fire for random reasons a day or two before bonus payout. โฎโฎโฎ
3. It's no more remote. Hybrid now, they pushing for everyone to shift to Bangalore and come to office.
4. Do ask around in the market about [...]
Like, I know it's important. I know seniors, clients, and judges all respond to it. I know people who've built entire careers on it. And yet, every time I try, it's written all over my face that I don't mean a word of it ๐ฅฒ
Genuinely think this should be a compulsory paper in law school. Semester 1, Week 1 โ Professional Flattery 101. More useful than half the things we actually studied.
So โ from those of you who've mastered the art โ how does one develop this skill? Is it practice? Is it just confidence? Do you eventually start meaning it? Does it get less awkward?
Seeking guidance from skilled and experienced practitioners of the craft. All tips welcome, no judgment. ๐
The clients would try to use the environment to bring down your fee. If you run a practice, it means recoveries may be affected.
If you work for someone, expect lesser bonuses.
We shall see. Hope things will not be as bad as is being predicted.
You wish to join a Tier NLU/ Firm whatever....Work for it....time spent wishing is time wasted.
Life chews up slackers and whiners and spits them out.
Personal experience.
Accept, ignore, react negatively or down vote...doesn't matter. The truth cuts and cuts hard! Of course if the LI mod boffins dont publish this then that's another thing.
They put you in different scenarios/ask you questions about your behavioural traits and you have to provide an answer in a couple of different ways (moving a slider/ranking possible ways to respond etc).
The Watson Glaser (WG) is your standard critical thinking test, there's about 5 sections and you'll find a bunch of samples online so won't get into the intricacies here.
There is no useful discourse to have on ranks because there is not some specific cutoff - obviously, the higher the better.
itโs definitely not as bad as what the pre-covid seniors had, from what Iโve heard.
Not the same reporter as Mumbai Mirror, obviously. Some guy who covers the crime beat in Mumbai for HT.
So many from law firms also have carved out brilliant careers for themselves, so the grapes are not always sour ! Get a life dude โฆ
@sayanighosh06 and @sagarikaghose
, who reminded me of the 3 witches in Shakespeare's Macbeth, joined the BJP soon, Mahua tweeted back : '' Sir @mkatju
- with due respect I must correct you. Unlike many others of your ilk who need to be secret Sanghis for post-retirement sinecures, I sacrificed my youth & career because I believe in my cause. Please donโt make unfounded claims in sensitive times. Regards ''. So let me ask Mahua : Is it not correct that you were accused of accepting bribes from businessman Darshan Hiranandani to ask questions targeting the Adani Group, and you also shared your parliamentary login credentials with him ? And is it not correct that BJP MP Nishikant Dubey and advocate Jai Anant Dehadrai ( your former lover ) alleged that you received cash and luxury gifts worth over Rs 20 crores from Hiranandani to ask questions, with 50 of your 61 parliamentary questions focused on the Adani Group ?
https://x.com/mkatju/status/2054450586792423427
In fact, children of NLSIU alumni law firm partners are doing this! Their parents were middle class before, but now they are wealthy and elite. So Jindal and study abroad for them.
NLUs are now dominated by lower-middle class and EWS students from small towns. Big demographic change from earlier generations. In fact, part of the tensions at NLSIU pertains to this: elitism-first Sudhir vs equity-first students.
https://www.bwlegalworld.com/article/trilegal-appoints-sandeep-ghosh-as-its-first-ceo-606567
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/water-shortage-hostel-overcrowding-trigger-student-protest-at-nlsiu-campus-in-bengaluru/article70972671.ece
Will the admin now 'target' the students?
Has the Karnataka government completely abdicated its responsibility towards this state university?
You must know the Economist is a mouthpiece of neoliberal values, which are dying and will take the form of late capitalism and fascism. As it is, the The Economist, comes in nice fancy print, but it is not the least bit credible or unbiased. I say this as a corporate PE, GC, and Capital Markets & M&A Lawyer of 10+ PQE and a reader of society and economics.
https://www.mid-day.com/mumbai/mumbai-crime-news/article/mumbai-us-senior-defrauded-of-rs-2-68-cr-by-bank-staff-fir-filed-after-mid-day-report-23586953
https://www.mid-day.com/mumbai/mumbai-crime-news/article/mumbai-75-year-old-american-woman-alleges-rs-2-5-cr-fraud-by-bank-wealth-manager-says-cops-not-filing-fir-23534066
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/cover-story/corporator-sobo-residents-in-green-turf-power-tussle/articleshow/128318322.html
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/sleepless-in-sobo/articleshow/128822030.html
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/cover-story/6-parel-high-rises-move-court-to-save-open-public-space/articleshow/125094762.html
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/encorachers-will-grab-sobo-plot-if-perimeter-isnt-finished/articleshow/130094573.html
One would expect 'HARVARD OF THE EAST" to have better facilities than this, but the reality is too grim for the students living here.
It is becoming more and more difficult to sustain the Mumbai office. The entire Mumbai office is running on the revenue of BJ. Other partners don't generate enough revenue to even pay the rent of Mumbai office.
I heard MS is contemplating harsh decisions like shifting the office to some cheaper locations like Goregaon or Navi Mumbai.
The firm (especially the Mumbai office) is in complete ruins. If you've got a PPO, go for Delhi office or else run away. We don't need more cost at the moment.
- โฎโฎโฎ
- โฎโฎโฎ
- โฎโฎโฎ
That's how juniors are treated.
I think Sudhir K realised this at one time. He even pointed, in a podcast interview he gave, to the United States, which he called the world's best system of legal education. Indeed, I recall him expressly advising people with academic aspirations to get some real world experience prior to going for academia. I am not sure what has caused him to change his mind, frankly, as his own background didn't stop him from giving that genuine advice.
And by the way, all this is coming from someone who has prolifically written on this site in Sudhir's defence against what I considered unfair and baseless criticism of him. It seems like you guys who are the majority on this site, the critics, have finally found a criticism which is convincing and which sticks. Just to note, I still believe, considering India's legal academia environment, that Sudhir is probably the best VC NLS could have had under current circumstances. I am not sure what that says about the general situation. TLDR; sorry for the slightly long exposition. Take it as a sign of exactly how disappointed I am at what is happening in NLS.
Yes.
They will also learn that some of the left-liberal professors they admire will change to saffron. ๐ Because man by nature is a rational and self-interested animal.
Please shift and go to a tier 2 college run by mediocre people, if that is how you feel.
People on LI from second-rung colleges, who are dropping law firm recruitment stats and boasting that they are better than NLSIU, should consider this. The top talent does not WANT to join law firms, at least not desi firms.
https://www.barandbench.com/amp/story/news/collegium-recommends-9-advocates-for-appointment-as-calcutta-high-court-judges
So, I got a rank of 7XX and got into HNLU but am now having second thoughts about going there. There are primarily two reasons for that:
1. I chose Humanities in class 12th for my passion's sake but then I looked at the bleak financial opportunities (especially in BA History which I so much wanted to pursue) and decided that after school, I would turn my mind to the money part, even if it meant letting it trump my passion a bit. This was how I found out about law, through a random video that denoted the average packages in the top firms. While it was made clear there only that one had to be from the top NLUs to have a good chance of getting in, I was relieved to find at least some way to reach that spot. However, now that I have gotten HNLU in my second attempt, I notice two feelings - a. Even after two attempts, I could only get HNLU, and b. I ended up swaying away from why I initially entered this field. If I would give up both my interest and chances to land those particular jobs, what is the point?
2. Recent posts and talk about the autocratic/high-handed administration, which is constantly coming in the way of students (for eg. the mooting fund allocation changes), and most importantly, placements. I saw that in the past year, AZB was the only T1 to come to campus and took 3-4 people, the rest were PPOs (and I would think that they are considerably tougher to land as your pool grows much larger compared to the campus placement scene). Also, even in its good years, it managed to get only a few T1s. So, the chances aren't that high. Another thing I noticed is that in order to calculate their placements, just take NLUJ's figures and divide it by 2, that roughly works out to be the correct number.
Also, I get that this was maybe just a bad year and I'll be graduating 5 years from now, but what if that's a bad year too? What will I do then? At least in the top 6, even in the bad days, I won't lose access to firms rather only my chances of landing at each would get lesser (i.e. the positions might reduce).
At this point, I don't even know what I am doing with my life. I hate myself for getting allotted HNLU and whenever my parents speak about how I got into here, I feel myself slouching and just ducking in my blanket of shame and guilt. Never in the worst of my days, had I thought about going into HNLU or any T2 for that matter. I used to get consistent 90+ (at least 85+) scores in mocks and got scores good enough for getting NALSAR at least, in the previous year papers except for 2021.
I've also heard that even the workload and work quality is differentiated based upon which college the associate is from (might be baloney, don't know). I just don't like to be associated with the college. That T2 tag just haunts me everyday. Almost all of these months have been spent on sleepless nights, as I have tried to make sense of going here. When I initially thought of this idea to just totally drop and attempt till I get a T1, I felt such an ease like I hadn't felt before in the months since the results came out.
But then my mind turned on and I noticed that I was getting a bit too emotional thinking about this. While I did plan for preparing for both CUET and CLAT/AILET if I were to give the exam next time and sort out for either my passion or financial goals, I just couldn't exactly trust myself with another attempt. In the past, I gave countless hours to critical reasoning and got comfortable in it but then those analytical reasoning questions came, made my head go blank and just like that, it all worked out for nothing. I saw certain facts/articles in newspapers or somewhere randomly that I didn't pay so much heed as to actually remember them, they came in the exam. While I will never back down from this opinion that the Consortium just took its syllabus and threw it out the window, I also blame myself for those oversights. However, it's just that, how am I going to find those oversights this time around, how will I stop my mind freezing in the exam hall, will anything that I will prepare for actually come in the exam (for instance, I religiously solved LegalEdge and LPT mocks, and it's without a doubt that I can say that they helped me jacksh*t).
There is so much uncertainty, it feels like gambling, hoping my preparation aligns with the paper. I also feel so scared of the possibility of me messing up the GK section once again or getting stuck at that one AR question again. I might just go all in and do everything, but then you can't do everything as that's only human, but then those things that I couldn't do, would come in the exam.
At the end, I just want to say that I don't know what I am going to do now. The college just doesn't ignite anything within me. I have swayed away from my intention of getting into this field in the first place. I am "sure" that something would again get changed up in the next attempt and I will still not get a good college. Maybe I might, and that is what keeps the cycle going. One more thing, is that I don't want to take a partial drop as it's impossible that your CGPA doesn't get affected and in the unfortunate situation of not clearing CLAT with a desired rank, what will one do with that messed up CGPA (also the first semester matters the most, as it most greatly affects the overall average of future semesters).
P.S. - I know that I may not be cut out for the top stuff, that's a reality that I am willing to accept if that be the case, but to always change the playing field, test such different things that I didn't even have any idea of getting assessed has made me sulky. Plus the opportunities are so vastly differentiated that I feel like going for the game of chance is a good enough strategy (attempt till you get a T1). I feel extremely disappointed in myself for going to a "good enough" college or settling for that matter. Also, I know that I might not even end up going for corporate but closing it from the onset feels a bit foolhardy.
P.P.S. - Please don't crash out on me, I know this might seem like ragebait but I apologise if I said anything out of line or hurt any feelings, I had no such intentions. I hope you understand and provide me your valuable suggestions. Thank you.
Also, with your interest in the topic, you could probably start a business around this, if you chose to...
I feel I am in a pretty good position to reply to this. I gave CLAT 3 times, first 2 times was getting NLU Sonipat, third time I landed in NALSAR. I was exactly where you were and I just want to tell you one thing. ITS OK. IT WILL WORK OUT.
I know you must have a lot of questions just eating away at you every single second. Just know, that feeling is normal. You'll eventually get over it (or atleast as close to it as one can get) Self-harm will not help you tackle these feelings. Soon you'll get a sense of stability back in your life, that's when it starts to get better.
There's a lot I want to just rant to you, all kinds of tips, all kinds of frustrations, just so many things that would others might not even spend a moment thinking about but hounds those who take double drops, but idt it will help you right now. I just hope this comment that I am leaving here will give you the strength to go on.
I'll still try to answer some of the questions you have asked, but if you still have any more doubts, questions or anything feel free to drop me a mail at burner.mail.9.3.4.1@gmail.com
Are double droppers discriminated or treated differently socially?
While on a surface level the answer is no, there are still some moments where you end up feeling bad about being a double dropper. Most of the times people would not mean it, but the words some people end up saying still hurts a lot. For those moments I only hope that the fact that there are so so so many like us all around us and even all over law colleges become a solace for you. But again most of the time people don't really care, and especially beyond the first year nobody cares about this stuff, everyone is too busy just trying to keep their own lifes normal that they don't have any energy for such stuff.
And as for if you get a good rank this time, will your previous failures still be relevant?
Well, those are your life experiences. They always stay with you, its upto you to not let them become some lingering negativities and to use them for your own benefit.
Now, as someone else in this thread already said, once you are in no opportunities are out of your hand.
I have just finished my second year, and am about to enter the third year, if anyone had told the me that had just gotten out after having written CLAT the second time and knowing that I had absolutely ruined that paper that I will be where I am today, I don't think I would have ever believed that. But life always has mysterious things in store for us. The highs and the lows that I have experienced after all of that just make it all seem just so... in the past. Trust me when I say it's not the end for you, YOU can still make your life into something that you don't regret. That's all that counts in the end.
Wishing things get better for you soon, and you look back to these moments of your life at your lowest points and use it to pick yourself up.