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Nalsar study reveals how law schools are chosen • Slams mag ‘rankings’, CLAT convenors, NLU-D • Suggests reforms

The main factors students use in picking law schoolsThe main factors students use in picking law schools

For previous years’ Common Law Admission Test (CLAT) candidates, faculty quality of a law school was the most important factor in choosing whether or not to seek admission, according to a study conducted by Nalsar Hyderabad on legal education reforms which was commissioned by the Department of Justice (DoJ).

The responses to that study also showcased ambivalent opinions on the justification of CLAT itself as an entrance exam.

While more than 38% respondents to the study’s survey answered that it was a “good idea” to use the CLAT as a method to judge an applicant’s aptitude, a nearly equal number - more than 33% - also thought that it was a “bad idea”.

In terms of factors influencing law school choices, faculty quality came first, followed by the law school’s placement track record, the ‘ranking’ of the law school, its physical infrastructure, financial assistance available and its geographical setting.

Consideration of the fee only came in last among the “most important” factors, according to the study.

“The responses to our questionnaire show that after the quality of ‘faculty’, the publicly known ‘Law School Rankings’ are the second most important factor for applicants to choose between NLUs,” noted the survey, adding:

With respect to the Common Law Aptitude Test (CLAT), the preferences of applicants seem to be driving the rankings of the NLUs, the latter having a strong correlation with the year of their establishment. These informal ‘rankings’ are then publicized by news-magazines and online publications which in turn shape the preferences of newer applicants. This is not a desirable situation since it gives relatively older institutions an artificial advantage and has already led to complacency on their part when it comes to the actual quality of education offered by them. It would also demoralize newer institutions who may not be able to improve their perceived ‘ranking’ despite significant efforts made to improve teaching standards. Hence, there is a need for an authoritative ranking of the NLUs by a publicly reliable source. We suggest that the National Institutional Ranking Framework (NIRF) introduced by the Ministry of Human Resource Development (MHRD), Government of India should include the NLUs as one of the sub-categories in their annual exercise of ranking higher educational institutions in India.

However, the study also noted more positively:

It is heartening to note that an overwhelming majority of the student-respondents value the quality of teaching as the most important criteria for choosing a particular institution.

This is a welcome change when compared to the long-entrenched stereotype about law students enrolled in India’s larger public universities being indifferent to the quality of classroom instruction. It indicates that the NLUs have succeeded to some extent in attracting students with healthy levels of motivation to pursue higher studies. This places an obligation on the NLUs to constantly enhance their teaching resources, whether it is in terms of the number of personnel available, the range of expertise available, the quality of instruction delivered and the extent of student satisfaction.

The study makes detailed actionable recommendations to improve access to NLUs, to:

  • improve access,
  • academic inputs, and
  • administrative processes.

How to tackle the faculty crisis?

Since faculty quality was such a top factor in choosing a law school, and since NLUs had a general dearth of quality faculty, the report suggested:

Contrary to the popular wisdom on this issue, pay-scales are not the only factor. Competent and motivated teachers will join institutions that are known to offer permanent teaching positions within a reasonable time-frame of 2-3 years. Relying on teachers in temporary positions for several years at a stretch leads to a high rate of attrition and makes it difficult to attract fresh talent. In order to induct fresh talent, pathways can be created such as paid Teaching Assistant positions for recent LL.M. graduates and Ph.D.

candidates who show an aptitude for teaching. Another prospective step that can be considered is for the NLUs to collectively organise their own Law Teachers Eligibility Test (LTET) in place of the UGC NET which is the current threshold for being considered for permanent teaching positions. This test can be designed so as to ensure a more meaningful assessment of an individual‟s aptitude for teaching. In the larger scheme of things, a working environment that encourages diligence, creativity and transparency will enable the accumulation of qualitatively better human resources.

The study also made several other suggestions, such as:

  • more use of the Socratic method or smaller-group ‘tutorials’ in teaching rather than just lectures,
  • a choice-based credit system (CBCS) as a “must” for all institutions,
  • all schools to organise “curriculum development workshops” before the start of each academic year,
  • special English language skill classes,
  • more student feedback on teacher performance,
  • a “conscious effort” by NLUs to “share their academic resources”.

Judging the entrance

CLAT growth through the ages (via report)CLAT growth through the ages (via report)

The CLAT, which was not a “good idea” for the second-largest number of respondents to the study, can be cracked more easily with entrance test coaching according to more than 35% of the respondents who said coaching “makes a significant difference”.

31.7% of the respondents even recommended that adding personal interviews or group discussions to the law school admission process was a “good idea”.

The study commented:

Multiple-choice questions might entail effort-saving for those who organize admissions, but do not capture an applicant’s aptitude for theory-building and analytical writing, both of which are vital for meaningfully pursuing legal education. Making admission decisions solely on the basis of a two-hour exam appears to be unfair to school-leaving applicants who might better demonstrate their abilities through scrutiny of several factors taken together such as performance in school-leaving examinations, writing samples, letters of recommendation and achievements in co-curricular activities.

In order to increase the number of students applying and to improve diversity, the study authors recommended that the application fees of Rs 4,000 for the CLAT should be halved, to correspond to entrance fees in other disciplines.

The authors also recommended that there was a “pressing need to improve the co-ordination mechanisms for conducting the CLAT”, with the “present model of rotating organisational responsibilities to a fresh institution each year” having “undermined the quality” of the exam, citing many of the very public errors in the conduct that have been well documented in previous years.

NLU Delhi really should join the CLAT (despite iffy quality?)

The authors also recommend in particular that NLU Delhi should really join the CLAT:

At least two of the NLUs that are currently in existence (NLU Delhi and HPNLU Shimla) are not using the CLAT for conducting their admissions. They should be advised to join the same. By remaining outside the ambit of this process, they are undermining the objective of a common exam introduced in 2008, which was to reduce the monetary and physical burden on applicants.

Domicile quotas

They also say that high “domicile quotas” at several NLUs are “not a desirable characteristic in the long-run, as it undermines the national character of the student body”, and “lead to undue resentment against students who gain admission with much lower ranks” in the CLAT.

NRI-sponsored seats misused

The study also recommended that the high-cost NRI-sponsored seats should be abolished, though seats allocated to students from abroad, particularly to economically developing countries:

Furthermore, a few NLUs have provided for „NRI-Sponsored‟ seats. This category should be discontinued since it is being misused by those who have completed their schooling in India but have relatives in developed countries who are willing to sponsor their education by paying the higher fee structure.

How to fix the administrative malaise?

The study makes some good points about how to improve transparency and quality in administration, including:

  • all NLUs to proactively disclose annual financial on their websites,
  • a more “broad-based process” for selecting VCs, and
  • “elected student bodies need to be nurtured and encouraged rather than being discouraged or even prohibited”:

Having said that, there are good arguments for continuing with the prohibition on mainstream political parties from mobilizing on these campuses. However, we should not go to the other extreme of not allowing elected student bodies at all. In some NLUs, the student office-bearers are being nominated by faculty members or being selected on the basis of their academic performance. Those models are not desirable either.

Methodology and authors

A total of 849 students from 15 national law universities (NLUs) were surveyed (“12% of the aggregate number of full-time students at the participating institutions”, according to the study), in addition to interviews with around 160 faculty members.

The paper’s listed authors are Nalsar vice chancellor Faizan Mustafa, Nalsar’s Jagteshwar Singh Sohi, Sidharth Chauhan and Sudhanshu Kumar, and Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas head of learning and development, Vaibhav Ganjiwale.

The full report can be accessed on SSRN.

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Like +22 Object -5 Darkseid 28 May 18, 22:48  interesting  top rated  controversial
I have several questions, one of which being, how exactly does a student fresh out of school actually get to decide which of the NLUs are placed where when it comes to faculty quality? I mean, I wouldn't have had the first clue about this at that stage! Even if I accept that NLUD is usually considered foremost at this stage when it comes to NLU faculty, that does not fall within CLAT's ambit anyway. And it still leaves 17-18 other NLUs. So, while participants in the survey (which from what Prof. Chauhan revealed, were not actually selected via random sampling, but simply based on those students who actually made the effort to respond to their questionnaires etc.) stressed on faculty quality being the top factor in selection, I am flummoxed to see how that could have been the case in reality. Surely not more than a fraction of these kids actually frequent portals like LI or B&B at this stage, where at least some discussion takes place on relative merits of law schools? Or is the decision based on faculty profiles from the institutional websites (which are mostly ill-maintained)?
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Like +18 Object -1 Sidharth Chauhan 28 May 18, 23:50  interesting  top rated
Dear Darkseid, thanks for your comment. You are right that applicants cannot possibly judge the quality of teaching at a particular institution. Since the survey was conducted among a loosely controlled sample of admitted students, the question could have been framed better since it reflects perceptions about the quality of teaching at the time of admission rather than the actual standards of delivery. We have acknowledged this element of hindsight bias as a limitation in our report. We will of course try to frame it better when we develop this report for publication. As for the sampling, we did conduct physical visits to all the participating institutions and the questionnaires were conducted through a mixture of techniques (structured interviews, group discussions and links to the surveys sent over class groups). I don't see any fallacy in including NLU Delhi in our survey since it is a structurally comparable institution and we had explicitly identified admitted students as our respondents rather than the larger pool of CLAT aspirants. Happy to engage with any other questions that you might have.
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Like +3 Object -0 Darkseid 29 May 18, 08:35
Dear Prof. Chauhan, thank you for your prompt and insightful reply. I appreciate the wonderful work you and your team have done with this and hope the recommendations you have made get accepted soon. Just to clarify, I did not mean to imply that inclusion of NLUD here was fallacious at all.
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Like +8 Object -10 Guest 29 May 18, 02:11  controversial
Agreed. The survey surely did not interview anyone at NUJS, as the students over there want bad professors instead of good professors, and the former hand out marks like candy.
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Like +15 Object -0 Jagteshwar Singh Sohi 29 May 18, 03:53  interesting  top rated
Two members of the group that carried out this study were at NUJS, Kolkata on August 29, 2016. Before our visit, we had formally requested a meeting with the Vice-Chancellor and Registrar; whom we met and submitted a questionnaire developed for the institution.

We had also requested Mr. Saurabh Bhattacharjee to help coordinate a meeting with any faculty member who could spare 15 minutes to allow us to share with them the idea and methodology of the study. Most of the first half of the day was spent meeting various faculty members. Each of them was given a questionnaire designed for the faculty.

Post-lunch we met a group of students who had turned up for our talk. We had a fruitful discussion with them and got some to fill in an anonymous online questionnaire. They were also requested them to spread the word among others on campus as planned to stay around as long as someone was willing to have a conversation. Most of the evening was spent meeting representatives of a number of different student committees and student-run initiatives.

In my individual opinion, the response we received from the student body at NUJS was definitely on the more enthusiastic side of the spectrum. We were on campus until around dinner time and had a great time listening in to what the students had to say.

...

The report can be accessed here (papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3171842), and the dates of our visits can be found on p. 27.
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1.2.3
Like +11 Object -1 Sidharth Chauhan 29 May 18, 04:43  interesting
Dear Guest, I suppose you are aiming for humour. However, since this site is visited by a larger audience, I must clarify that we had visited WBNUJS Kolkata on August 29-30, 2016 to administer our questionnaires. More than 80 students had submitted complete responses. A group of student committees also made presentations about their work and their concerns about the institution. However, we were not able to document their institution-specific concerns in the report on account of it's limited scope.
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Like +5 Object -1 Nujs 29 May 18, 10:51
They did. If you weren't as dumb as you appear to be then you would have read the report and would have seen that Prof. Chauhan visited NUJS and a large number of respondents were from nujs.
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1.2.5
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Like +2 Object -0 Internally 29 May 18, 10:54
That's a phenomenon hardly limited to NUJS alone
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Like +8 Object -0 Concerned 29 May 18, 02:01  interesting
India Today and Outlook law school rankings are out (links below). Although there is critics of them, the problem is that many parents and students are still influenced by them, especially people from simple backgrounds who do not have enough knowledgeable friends and relatives to guide them. Furthermore, these rankings are influential when it comes to non-NLU choices. NIRF is a good alternative in terms of methodology, but the government was conned with false data. For this reason, I request Legally India to reinstate the law school recruitment rankings and submit the information to NIRF, India Today etc.

www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/top-25-law-colleges/300182

barandbench.com/india-today-finally-got-law-school-rankings-right-hint-not-chance/
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Like +11 Object -1 The Flash 29 May 18, 02:05  interesting
It's curious that faculty quality was #1. If that is the case, then NLUD and NALSAR faculty are superior to NLSIU, but NLSIU has more takers. Also, JGLS would be higher on preference lists than what it currently is. So this finding seems divorced from reality.

However, it is very good that they have commented on NLUD's shameful behaviour to be excluded from CLAT, with even Shamnad Basheer has slyly avoided in his PIL. I cannot understand why no PIL is filed regarding this.
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Like +4 Object -1 Jagteshwar Singh Sohi 29 May 18, 04:01
1. Please note that it was statistically the most important factor according to the respondents of the survey. However, it isn't the only factor or even the deciding factor in the decision made by an incoming student. Most of these factors are addressed in the final report, available here: papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3171842. The detail doesn't come through in a much-shortened news article carried here.

2. We have commented on anyone's 'shameful behavior,' nor have we 'slammed' anyone in the report. Concerning NLU-D, we have merely pointed out that its continued existence outside the CLAT (with its many well-documented issues) goes against the spirit of the decision establishing CLAT.
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 10 Jun 18, 17:27
Please enlighten us as to which advanced statistical techniques has the report used?? The results of your report are anything but robust. They don't mean anything at all.
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Like +1 Object -0 Sidharth Chauhan 11 Jun 18, 00:06
At no point have we made claims about using 'advanced statistical techniques'. If you have read the report you would have found a simple aggregation of responses to 44 questions. This was done intentionally so that the text of the report would be accessible to a broader audience which would include school-leaving students, current law students, teachers across disciplines, practitioners and government officials. Furthermore, none of us (the five authors) have expertise with quantitative research methods. Our abilities are very much limited to doctrinal legal research.

As for the 'meaningfulness' or 'meaninglessness' of the entire report, why don't you first read the 54,000 word document and then write a critique or a response piece in your actual name? That would carry far more weightage than a casual anonymous comment.
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Like +4 Object -1 Sidharth Chauhan 29 May 18, 04:46
Dear 'The Flash', I think you misunderstood the responses and their interpretation. We had asked respondents to indicate the relative importance of several factors to choose an institution. So the eventual choice would reflect an aggregation of these factors and not necessarily be based on one factor by itself.
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Like +2 Object -0 Guest 31 May 18, 11:21
It would be interesting to see how many students ranked more than one factor as "most important". The high rating of faculty may be because people who ranked placement or ranking may have also ranked faculty quality highly, distorting the results. I think combining this scale with a ranking of importance of various variables/factors would have given a more complete picture.

It would also be interesting to compare the factors that non-NLU students look at, for while they may be similar in some aspects, they may be quite different in others. The very fact that for almost 60% of the people at NLU, fees are not 'very important', highlights the socio-economic background of the typical NLU student.

Honestly, as a non-NLU student, I have gone with reputation (rather than ranking) as my (second) most important criterion, after location, and a liberal attendance system that leaves time for work/other activities. All these factors correlate with placements. Though I have come to respect some of our faculty, they were never a consideration while choosing my college. Fees on the other hand, were an important factor.
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Like +2 Object -0 Concerned 31 May 18, 17:53
The faculty which is dedicated to teaching and engaging with their students find less time for research. That is why the faculty at RMLNLU, Lucknow and CNLU, Patna is not able to publish papers. The point is that the faculty giving their time to their students must be considered good faculty. The research output should not be the only criterion.
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Like +7 Object -0 Guest 31 May 18, 18:47  interesting
@Concerned: I agree to your point that faculty members at several NLUs are too overburdened with teaching and admin responsibilities to be able to publish properly, but sadly, there is no objective criterion yet to judge that properly. If anything, if a teacher at any institution claims he/she is so overburdened, that in itself should be a mark against such institution. I have been to at least 8 of the top global universities in the US, UK and rest of Europe. Almost everywhere, teaching load of a faculty member is at least half of what an average NLU teacher has and in very few cases they need to be concerned with any kind of admin responsibilities at all. Unless we allow our teachers such leeway, our institutions will never gain reputation globally.
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Like +12 Object -1 SKK 29 May 18, 02:30  interesting
There are two different questions that are being mixed up:

1) What made you choose a law school when you were giving CLAT?

2) Having now gained admission, do you hold the same view? What do you think should be the criteria that students should follow?

Answer to 1: Ranking/reputation, NLU brand name, peer advice, parents, Sharmaji ka beta, India Today.

Answer to 2: No, I was an idiot. What really matters is quality of faculty and placement scenario for all rather than a select few.
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Like +17 Object -13 meister 29 May 18, 03:46  controversial
Faculty rankings:

1. Jindal
2. NLUD/NALSAR (at par)
3. NLSIU
4. NLUJ/NLIU/GNLU (at par)
5. Other NLUs

Student preferences:

1. NLSIU
2. NALSAR
3. NUJS/NLUD (at par)
4. NLUJ/NLIU/GNLU (at par)
5. Other NLUs
6. Jindal/Symbi/Amity

Thus, students preferences are more tilted towards placements and ranking.
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5.1
Like +17 Object -6 Orion 29 May 18, 11:41  interesting  controversial
Can we please stop with this self-made ranking on everything under the sun about law schools in comments to every post? Student preference is obvious enough because of CLAT, but how on earth do you know where faculty of NLUs stand regarding teaching quality? Did you study everywhere or has any proper scientific study been made about law school faculty ever? You could still have made your point by the latter list alone, saying there is actually no cogent proof of faculty in these law schools being similarly ranked, but no, you had to parade your opinion (lacking any logical foundation). This is how people from outside law school circuit get misled in case they happen to skim through these posts.
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Like +5 Object -8 meister 29 May 18, 17:15  controversial
Hello, it is called freedom of speech. We have the right to give an opinion of which law school is better. Who are you? India Today and Outlook have given wrong rankings, so I am giving a correct one based on knowledge and information to guide law aspirants.
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5.1.1.1
Like +8 Object -0 Beetle Bailey 29 May 18, 17:59  interesting
Yes, because you have such a bona fide wealth of knowledge and information to share in the matter, which is teaching quality of faculty members across different law schools! How did you get it, by enrolling into each law school and studying for a semester there? You are doing nothing to guide law aspirants or anybody else, simply misguiding them. And freedom of speech extends to everyone; if you have the right to spout nonsense, others have the right to call it out as such.
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5.1.1.2
Like +9 Object -2 Expert 29 May 18, 18:07  interesting
What makes you believe that your version of the ranking regarding faculty members is the correct one? Assuming you are a law student, you should know an expert needs to establish their credentials before they offer their opinion. Can you even name all the faculty members of a law school other than your own, before you start delivering judgment on their capability? This is nothing but a cheap attention-seeking stunt.
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Like +3 Object -9 NLUDRocks 29 May 18, 10:11
It seems CAM used its artificial intelligence software to compile the report, lol !
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Like +10 Object -4 NLU Aspirant 29 May 18, 10:47  interesting
Placements. It's all about placements. Accept the truth.
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Like +7 Object -13 Bhajjiwale 29 May 18, 12:05  controversial
Bhaiya ye study to ek bahana tha. Nalsar ke paison se aish karke aaye hai sab. Asli study India ke dhabe wale culture pe hua hai jiska report ab tak release nahi hua. We eagerly await the release of 'The Impact of Dhabas, and the Culinary Tug of War dictating the student choices'.
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8.1
Like +12 Object -3 Sidharth Chauhan 30 May 18, 00:35  interesting
I suppose such anonymous trolling should be taken lightly. However, since there is a sentence which indirectly accuses us of corruption, I should clarify that the study was funded by the Department of Justice, Ministry of Law and Justice. The sanctioning letters which mention the respective budgets can be found on the Department of Justice website. We have in fact underused the allotted funds since most of the NLUs gave us accommodation on their campuses. So the actual expenditure was largely the travel reimbursements for budget flights. We have asked for permission to use the balance of unspent funds in order to organise a national-level consultation so as to develop this report into a book-length publication. On balance, NALSAR will gain money from this project by way of allocations made for institutional expenses.
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8.1.1
Like +8 Object -3 VenkatMao 30 May 18, 07:31  interesting
Time to learn in life that you don’t have to reply to each and every comment. A few still believe that academics are smart. #ChillChu
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Like +1 Object -8 True News 29 May 18, 12:39
It is rubbish to say that NLUD has best faculty. It is a total lie. Do a proper comparison between the top 4 NLUs and you will find that the hierarchy is actually NALSAR>NLUD>NUJS>NLUJ>NLS IU (yes, NLSIU is that bad).
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9.1
Like +19 Object -7 NALSAR 29 May 18, 13:32  interesting  top rated  controversial
If NALSAR has the best faculty of the NLUs, I fear for the future of legal education in India. I can't comment on any other law school, not having been there, but there are several issues at NALSAR that permeate through all law schools. These include:

1. Shoddy standards regarding projects, where some professors do not bother running a plagiarism check. I've heard from friends at other law schools that there isn't checking for plagiarism at all! They even ask for projects they can resubmit after changing the name.

2. Teachers spend too much time teaching what they like instead of what they should be teaching. For instance, we weren't taught breach or contract or damages, even though it is one of the most import aspects of Contract Law that a person ought to know.

3. Arbitrary marking: I have personally seen answer scripts where two people have written substantially similar answers, cited the same case laws, and have have been marked differently.

4. Exchange Programs allow students to essentially buy marks for money, since they come back with extremely inflated grades that are all but impossible to get in NALSAR for anyone who can't afford, or isn't interested in exchange.This also causes a feedback loop of increasing grades because those who have higher grades already get to go on exchange, this makes the higher ranks unobtainable for most of the batch by the final years.

5. Absolutely terrible policy of academic leave, where people with sprained hands have been forced to write exams, where people who were admitted to hospitals were asked to provide additional proof or original copies of certificates when copies of everything were provided. The policy of the administration is "they are all probably lying to get attendance/exemption".

6. The college does not support mooting or corporate placements, but is very happy to take credit for them even when they actively get in the way of things. Individuals teachers help, but the administration in general does not want to provide exemptions for attendance requirements, rescheduling classes, or even getting more courses to help people learn commercial laws (although this has been changing recently).

7. Many teachers still shame people for the clothes they wear, give weird looks to males and females walking together. The administration is in denial that people in the age range of 18-24 might be sexually active. Until recently they used to light up every corner of the campus, send guards patrolling everywhere, etc. If it was outside it would be understandable, but the sheer number of guards inside means that the only reason they exist is to police behavior that is not even prohibited in the rules.

8. Absolutely terrible infrastructure, and people are not even allowed to keep fridges or coolers (even speakers in some cases) in their room to alleviate their issues with horrendous summer weather (mid 40s) without fearing them being confiscated.

9. The administration does not care at all about a lot of old time teachers who barely take any classes, in some cases there are people who took only a handful of classes in an entire semester! But god forbid a student falls short of 2 classes they can be forbidden from writing their end-semester examination.

10. NALSAR has some of the highest fees of all NLUs, but to show for it there's failing internet infrastructure where webpages don't even load half the time, terrible hostels (except for the current fifth year boys), terrible food, wild animals everywhere, no college subsidized transport to the city, making trips affordable for most.

11. When the student body attempted to pass a recruitment policy that was similar to what NLS did, but with more safeguards in place, the administration effectively threatened to take over the placement process if the policy was not neutered or removed. The administration thinks the protection of sexual harassment convicts (not accused) should take precedence over the victims.

NALSAR as an academic institution is a terrible place, where people will suffer for five years, but will at least get the pay-off of big 7 firms and a brand value. The student body is pretty good and I've had a nice time here so far. But the administration is absolutely terrible, hypocritical, and driven mad with power. Some of the faculty is brilliant, especially the younger ones likes Sidharth Chauhan, Sudhanshu, Neha Pathakji, etc. However, some of the older ones, who I will not name here, don't even care about taking classes. One particular teacher is notorious for showing up late, ending early, and taking less than 10 classes a semester.

Basically, you can see that rankings are useless to see what colleges will be like. Better to ask people who at those colleges to get an idea for what they are like. Obviously they are biased, so focus on questions that matter, and ask multiple people.
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Like +7 Object -13 Alum 29 May 18, 14:16  controversial
Buddy,

Seriously - quit nalsar. It's really not as bad as you make it sound.

Assuming what you've written is true - these sound like 1st world privilege problems that you describe in your comment. Listen to the problems at other law schools.

Best
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9.1.1.1
Like +7 Object -1 NALSAR 30 May 18, 01:17  interesting
Teachers not taking classes, denying people medical leave for no reason, arbitrary marking, and shoddy academic standards are not first world problems. I understand things are much better than they were before, but that doesn't mean that it can't be better. Assuming the other law schools are much worse, as you say they are, that still does not absolve the responsibility of the administration to fix the aforementioned things. If your advice to me for airing these grievances is to quit law school, and law altogether (since you mentioned other law schools are worse), then I think you are arguing from nostalgia or loyalty more than logic. Most of these things (I admit some are for comfort) would obviously be better for NALSAR, and they are much more important than installing TVs in the mess or tiles on the mess walls.

I can't say that I know what it was like before, but I can certainly say that I find it unacceptable that teachers that do not take classes are still on the payrolls, and even visiting faculty who have taken 3-5 classes in a semester (for 3 credit courses) are invited over and over again.
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Like +3 Object -1 Not nalsar 31 May 18, 13:07
It's because of people like you that we still suffer the apathy and mindlessness of college administrations. Why should we not expect first world service in institutions that aspire to be world class?


As a student in a traditional university, I can say with utmost certainty that we resent the interference of the admin in our affairs as much as those in NALSAR. We don't think the problems outlined are first world problems at all, and as someone who has been fortunate enough to be educated in a reputed UK University, I never had any of the problems outlined by @NALSAR whilst there.

@NALASAR, these problems are pervasive in all Indian institions...we need to organise ourselves better for change. Unfortunately, a large part of the Indian population is Victorian, so it will be a tall task.
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9.1.2
Like +13 Object -2 NALSAR - 2013 Batch 29 May 18, 15:32  interesting
"But the administration is absolutely terrible, hypocritical, and driven mad with power": This coming from someone who didn't see the time of VK.

NALSAR has had a history of terrible moral policing and a very opaque and drunk-on-power admin, but THIS ADMIN ISN'T THE CULPRIT. The times of Ranbir Singh and Veer Singh were infinitely worse and the accountability of the administration was zilch. The place has moved on to much, much better times.

I admit this is not a response to your argument: the administration must work towards the issues you highlighted on a continuous basis. However, it is important to understand that what you have is what was denied to generations before you, and the evolution of an institution is an organic process, sometimes perhaps taking years after rampant maladministration to curb the culture and effects of the past.
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9.1.2.3
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Like +3 Object -1 NALSAR 30 May 18, 01:24
I wasn't arguing for overnight change, but inviting professors (visiting ones), who can't be bothered to even take 10% of the scheduled classes over and over again is not excusable. I understand that I might not have faced the same issues that earlier batches have, but I don't want my juniors to walk into class only to find the professor not there. I don't want them to be sent back to their room during their exam because they were wearing shorts (everyone knows that certain teacher who does that in her classes). I don't want to have to fight to convince the college to take action against sexual harassment (having been on the receiving end of it, I know how effective the so-called "effective system" is at dealing with it.

I completely acknowledge the fact that batches prior to my had it much worse, but I am ashamed that I can't leave it better for my juniors than I had for myself.
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9.1.2.3...
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Like +1 Object -1 NALSAR - 2013 Batch 30 May 18, 17:37
Absolutely in agreement with you - as marked in my previous response, I wasn't responding to your statements per se. I was pointing out that the culture of the admin at Nalsar has progressed on a macro-view of the past 20 years. I completely appreciate your concerns and what you've pointed out as shortcomings merit a response and escalation of issues from the admin. The benefit of hindsight should not be a basis for rejecting better standards and responsibility, and that was definitely not the import of my comment.
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9.1.3
Like +8 Object -4 Nalsarite 29 May 18, 16:13
100% spot on and true, my friend. Anyone who downvotes your comment is in denial.
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10
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Like +2 Object -1 Legal Thinker 29 May 18, 16:03
The more Law Schools opening, the more standard is going down. In the olden days there were less law colleges and people who genuinely wanted to study Law studied it. Now there is mass production with no quality. Every student needs to ask himself or herself whether genuinely they want to become lawyers.
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11
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Like +3 Object -1 T Joseph 29 May 18, 16:11
I commend Nalsar and Prof Chauhan for this report. I feel the most important recommendations of the report are the following:

1) Presence of alumni in governing body like IIT and IIM
2) National Importance status like IIT and IIM
3) Improvement of faculty and better electives
4) Inclusion of NLUD in CLAT.

There should be a pressure campaign on the law ministry to implements these recommendations ASAP.
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12
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Like +2 Object -1 RSS 29 May 18, 16:23
India Today ranking:



Outlook ranking:

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13
Like +13 Object -1 Guest 30 May 18, 01:03  interesting  top rated
This is so weird. First, NLU kids fight saying my law school is better. Then, they fight saying my law school admin is more corrupt than yours!
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14
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Like +2 Object -1 Vivek 9 30 May 18, 01:14
Prof Chauhan and NALSAR team, I wish to point out one thing. There is no objective way to assess faculty quality, so international rankings use publications in reputed journals + citations of those publications as a way of measuring research output of faculty. Typically, they use the SCOPUS database. If you plan to submit this report to the government, you should add a chapter measuring published research output of each NLU by searching SCOPUS and Hein Online.
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14.1
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Like +4 Object -2 Sidharth Chauhan 30 May 18, 02:54
Vivek9, We did not ask respondents to directly assess faculty quality. Teaching standards are captured to some extent if there is a credible feedback system in place. Our survey question (extracted above) was only asking respondents to indicate the relative weightage they would give to 7 factors for choosing an institution. As I tried to explain to Darkseid above, a sample of admitted students would probably give much more (and informed) weightage to the quality of teaching when compared with a hypothetical sample of applicants who are yet to commence studies. As for research output, I would personally be sceptical of only looking at publications in SCOPUS Indexed journals to assess teacher performance in Indian law schools. However, given the absence of other credible filters this appears to be a viable option. We do have data on publications for some of the participating institutions but not everyone has shared it so far. So this aspect probably needs more digging and corroboration through Annual Reports submitted to the respective governing bodies.
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14.2
Like +6 Object -2 Guest 30 May 18, 06:10
I did a quick search on HeinOnline for publications by the Professors (only professors as of now) from three National Law Schools commonly understood to be ‘the best’ in the country.

I have divided ‘the hits’ into those published in international journals [each carrying 5 points], domestic journals [2 points] and journals run by home institution [0.5 points]. Further, for citations recorded against the name of the author by HeinOnline I have counted a further 0.25 points.

Note 1: The points systems in totally arbitrary and you may disregard it in its entirety.

Note 2: I have included in publication only those ‘hits’ noted by HeinOnline as other than ‘notes, comments.’

Note 3: A lot of the domestic publications by professors, esp. those associated presently or in the past with NLSIU have been in ‘Student Advocate.’ I am unaware of this journal but have accorded it the status of ‘domestic’ as of now. If someone can correct me on this then I shall alter the ‘scoring’ accordingly.

Note 4: I have counted something as ‘home’ publication when the paper appears in a journal run by an institution the author has been associated with at any stage.

The following data is provided as: name of professor – no. of int’l/domestic/home publications – no. of citations – total points


Total points NLUD Professors [10.75]
Ranbir Singh 0 2 2 0 5
G.S Bajpai 0 0 2 0 1
Harpreet Kaur 0 0 1 3 1.25
Anju Tyagi 0 0 1 0 0.5
Anupama Goel 0 0 0 0 0
Mrinal Satish 0 1 3 4 3
Jeet Singh Mann 0 0 0 0 0
Ritu Gupta 0 0 0 0 0
Anil Kumar Rai 0 0 0 0 0

Total points NALSAR Professors [36.25]
Amita Dhanda 4 0 0 30 27.25
Faizan Mustafa 1 0 0 0 5
K.V.S Sarma 0 0 0 0 0
VIdyulattha 0 0 0 0 0
N. Vasanthi 0 0 0 0 0
Balakista Reddy 0 0 0 0 0
Vivekanandan 0 2 0 0 4
Vijender Kumar 0 0 0 0 0

Total points NLSIU Professors [19.5]
R. Venkata Rao 0 0 0 0 0
O.V Nandimath 0 0 0 0 0
V. Nagaraj 3 0 0 0 15
M. K. Ramesh 0 0 0 0 0
T. Ramakrishna 0 0 0 0 0
S. Japhet 0 0 0 0 0
Ashok R. Patil 0 0 0 0 0
Sarasu Thomas 0 2 0 0 4
Sairam Bhat 0 0 1 0 0.5
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14.2.1
Like +6 Object -1 Ketchup 30 May 18, 09:44  interesting
@Guest: Honest question, no snark intended. Does HeinOnline capture the data from more than a handful of the Indian (domestic) journals at all? I didn't know it did. This is a good move on your part, if it can be properly spread over all databases etc. The best thing would be if universities just publish the publication details of at least their senior faculty (if not everyone) on their website. That should contain all the journals they have published in, though for citation, the databases are the only option. Maybe a combination of Westlaw, Hein, Lexis and Jstor? Though even all of them don't have data on most of the Indian journals as such. Does Athens?
I would also like to point out that while publications are an important factor in judging faculty quality, they by no means indicate/ensure teaching quality. I have seen several teachers in my law school, who were very good inside classrooms with the subjects they offered, but who were not that interested in publishing. Similarly, there were at least 2 teachers, who had enviable publication record, but couldn't teach for a toffee! However, since teaching prowess cannot be objectively determined by outsiders, I guess publications remain the only way for now.
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14.2.2
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Like +2 Object -1 Guest 30 May 18, 11:22
Woooow! This is great! So according to this, by the international standard of research quality, the top NLU is NALSAR, then NLSIU and NLUD. But a huge chunk of NALSAR's score is because of Amita Dhanda. In fact her score is nearly the same as NLSIU and NLUD combined!!!
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14.2.3
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Like +2 Object -7 A.A 30 May 18, 11:27
Hey buddy, why are you only counting professor-level people? Why not associate/assistant? If you do that then NLUD will be ahead by miles.
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14.2.3.1
Like +16 Object -2 Self-Help 30 May 18, 12:09  interesting  top rated
@A.A.: He has tried to do something positive with a manageable sample size. If you wish to develop on it by including the relatively junior faculty members too, why not go ahead and do it yourself? And why stop at the 3 NLUs only? Include all the others too. He has revealed all the necessary methodology for you. Your claim may very well be true, but spend the time and effort to establish it, just like this guy did. Criticising any positive initiative from the sidelines is pretty easy.
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14.2.4
Like +9 Object -1 Triumvirate 30 May 18, 11:41  interesting
This table seems interesting. I just checked HeinOnline with the same parameters for the 6 existing professors of NUJS. Cumulatively, it is coming close to around 50 points, based on Guest's methodology, though it is mostly because of 3 of the 6, viz. Prof. Manoj Kumar Sinha, Prof. Sandeepa Bhat and Prof. Sreenivasulu N.S. Despite a lot of negative comments made about the writing of one particular professor here (which were mostly accurate), it does not seem NUJS is too behind either when it comes to publications.
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14.2.4.2
Like +8 Object -1 Bhaiya 30 May 18, 12:16  interesting
That's some pleasant surprise :)
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14.2.5
Like +5 Object -1 Guest 30 May 18, 12:43
This is great! Student Advocate was the first iteration of what is now called the National Law School of India Review. A few suggestions:

1. I assume you are counting home journals separately from other domestic journals to neutralize any home court advantage. I would therefore count a home publication only for articles that appeared in home journals *while* the author was associated with that institution, not before or after.

2. Citations: it is interesting that only 3 people in the entire list have had their articles cited by others! But citation count also depends on the age of a piece. An earlier piece of similar impact will have more citations just because it has been around for some time. There should be some way to take that into account.

3. Spread: while both nalsar and nls have more points, nlud has more professors with points. Therefore if we are looking at overall faculty quality, the raw numbers might not indicate much. Is there some way in which the spread can be counted?

4. Number of years of experience: should we place newly minted professors in the same category as those who have been around for some time and have therefore had the chance to publish more? Or is there some way in which we can account for the number of years of employment as an academic in determining publication ranking? Maybe divide the score by the number of years in the profession?
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14.2.6
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Like +1 Object -0 Raju KC 31 May 18, 21:25
Why it is so that Vice Chancellors have a low score points. Either less than 5 or perfect zero? Will it not encourage the young faculty aspiring to be VC of any NLU to work hard to maintain a score below 5 or achieve the highest level of easily scoreable envious ZERO point? However it will make the job of search committees for drawing the panel of VCs quite easy and tension free.
There is a dire need to develop the parameters for judging the teaching capacity of a faculty member. The feedbacks from students cannot be the only method to evaluate the Professor's performance as all of us know a faculy giving A+ to students and not marking them absent can get excellent feedbacks.
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15
Like +6 Object -1 Guest 30 May 18, 02:45  interesting
I don't know how good or bad situation is at the various law schools these days. I wish to make an observation based on the sort of comments I generally see on this website. They seems to be made by students of (and in response to) certain institutions.

I wonder if this is because the situation is much worse of in NLSIU, NALSAR, NUJS, CNLU (to name a few), or that the student bodies are 'given' the freedom to air their grievances with greater confidence. I doubt I have read much by way of criticism by students of NLU-J, NLUO, NLU-D, RGNUL (again, to name a few).

Anyways, just a lay observation by an older alum.
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15.1
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Like +2 Object -1 Jabba 30 May 18, 11:23
Good point, but that's probably because the students there are too meek/conformist to protest.
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16
Like +7 Object -0 Further nerdiness-1 30 May 18, 13:35  interesting
Limitations:

1. A large number of domestic journals are not part of HeinOnline. Only some journals of NLSIU, NLU-D, NUALS, NUJS seem to be indexed on it. Please keep this in mind while looking at the data.
2. Publications in no way determine teaching capacity.
3. A number of people here will have written books and/or book chapters that can't be in factored in using this lay methodology.
4. As far as possible I have attempted to keep 'home' journals limited to the time someone was at such and such institution. However, there may have been genuine errors.
5. Lack of citations may totally be related to new-ness of a paper. Some of the younger Assistant Profs (I remember one or two who have published in international journals) have had publications as recent as 2017-18.
6. Larger number of faculty members at NLU-D have 'scored' of this collation of data. However, do keep in mind that they have been active with the 'home' journal. I do not claim that this is necessarily to be looked down upon. Maybe they are helping build their own journal. However, lack of publications 'outside' does dampen the enthusiasm of this claim (of mine).
7. I have not weighted the data for number of years in service. I do not have the time to go into the websites once again. Hopefully, I can return to this at some point.
8. Please beware that some of the data here is patently flawed. I had counted 'Student Advocate' as 'domestic' journal for a few faculty members. Someone has (very kindly) informed me that it is an older name for the NLSI review. As such, it will become 'home' publication for some. I apologize for not going through each name to correct the same.
9. Some specific notes are mentioned against the names of faculty members for NLSIU.

Other than that, methodology remains the same. I'll re-count the salient points here:

1. I have divided ‘the hits’ into those published in international journals [each carrying 5 points], domestic journals [2 points] and journals run by home institution [0.5 points]. Further, for citations recorded against the name of the author by HeinOnline I have counted a further 0.25 points.
2. The points systems in totally arbitrary and you may disregard it in its entirety.
3. I have included in publication only those ‘hits’ noted by HeinOnline as other than ‘notes, comments.’

The data is provided as: name of professor – no. of int’l/domestic/home publications – no. of citations – total points
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17
Like +7 Object -0 Further nerdiness-2 30 May 18, 13:37  interesting
NLU-D
Professors [10.75]
Ranbir Singh 0 2 2 0 5
G.S Bajpai 0 0 2 0 1
Harpreet Kaur 0 0 1 3 1.25
Anju Tyagi 0 0 1 0 0.5
Anupama Goel 0 0 0 0 0
Mrinal Satish 0 1 3 4 3
Jeet Singh Mann 0 0 0 0 0
Ritu Gupta 0 0 0 0 0
Anil Kumar Rai 0 0 0 0 0
Associate profs [5.5]
Bharti 0 0 0 0 0
Ruhi Paul 1 0 0 0 5
Vinod Kumar 0 0 1 0 0.5
Amita Punj 0 0 0 0 0
Risham Garg 0 0 0 0 0
Assistant profs [35.25]
Sushila 0 0 0 0 0
Mukul Raizada 0 0 0 0 0
Anup S'nath 0 0 0 0 0
Jasper Vikas 0 0 1 0 0.5
Neeraj Tiwari 2 0 0 0 10
Aparna Chandra 1 2 3 4 11.5
Arul G. Scaria 1 0 1 0 5.5
Daniel Matthew 0 0 0 0 0
Sophy K.J 0 0 1 0 0.5
Vishal Mahalwar 0 0 0 0 0
Aparajita Bhatt 0 0 0 0 0
Niraj Kumar 0 0 0 0 0
Preeti Lakhera 0 0 0 0 0
Prem Chand 0 0 0 0 0
Chinmayi Arun 0 2 0 0 4
Yogesh Pai 0 1 2 1 3.25
Bharti Yadav 0 0 0 0 0
Monika Negi 0 0 0 0 0
INSTITUTIONAL TOTAL = 51.5
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17.1
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest2 30 May 18, 14:03
Interesting data. If this exercise has to be meaningful, we should include books too. It would be particularly interesting to see how many faculty members have published with reputed international publishers in each of these law schools.
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Like +3 Object -0 Further Nerdiness-3 30 May 18, 13:38
NALSAR
Professors [36.25]
Amita Dhanda 4 0 0 30 27.25
Faizan Mustafa 1 0 0 0 5
K.V.S Sarma 0 0 0 0 0
K. VIdyulattha 0 0 0 0 0
N. Vasanthi 0 0 0 0 0
Balakista Reddy 0 0 0 0 0
Vivekanandan 0 2 0 0 4
Vijender Kumar 0 0 0 0 0
Associate profs [0]
Aruna Venkat 0 0 0 0 0
K.V.K Santhy 0 0 0 0 0
Assistant profs [12.75]
Adya Surabhi 0 0 0 0 0
Ashwini Kumar P 0 0 0 0 0
D. Bala Krishna 0 0 0 0 0
G. Mallikarjun 0 0 0 0 0
Jagteshwar Sohi 1 0 0 0 5
Neha Pathakji 1 1 0 0 7
Prerna Dhoop 0 0 0 0 0
Rajesh Kapoor 0 0 0 0 0
S N A Shafi 0 0 0 0 0
Sidharth Chauhan 0 0 1 1 0.75
Sourabh Bharti 0 0 0 0 0
Sudhanshu Kumar 0 0 0 0 0
Raghavendra Rao 0 0 0 0 0
Vivek Mukherjee 0 0 0 0 0
Institutional Total = 49
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19
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Like +2 Object -0 Further Nerdiness-4 30 May 18, 13:40
NLSIU
Professors [19.5]
R. Venkata Rao 0 0 0 0 0
O.V Nandimath 0 0 0 0 0
V. Nagaraj 3 0 0 0 15
M. K. Ramesh 0 0 0 0 0
T. Ramakrishna 0 0 0 0 0
S. Japhet 0 0 0 0 0
Ashok R. Patil 0 0 0 0 0
Sarasu Thomas 0 2 0 0 4
Sairam Bhat 0 0 1 0 0.5
Associate profs [28.25]
Govindraj Hegde 0 0 0 0 0
Rahul Singh 3 1 2 1 18.25
Yashomati Ghosh 2 0 0 0 10
A. Nagarathna 0 0 0 0 0
Assistant profs [36]
Makkalaban 0 0 0 0 0
Anuja S. 0 0 0 0 0
Kumar Abhijeet 5 0 0 0 25 [4 of his 5 publications are at the IISL Symposia. 2 of these 4 are co-authored with 5/7 others. They are marked as 'article' by HeinOnline and I have counted them as 'int'l publications' but this seems like a slippery slope.]
Vishnuprasad 0 0 0 0 0
Kunal Ambasta 2 0 1 0 10.5
Prashanth Desai 0 0 0 0 0
Arpitha H.C 0 0 0 0 0
Manjeri Subin 0 0 0 0 0
Priya Misra 0 0 0 0 0
Praveen Tripathi 0 0 0 0 0
Rashmi Venkatesan 0 0 1 0 0.5
Anita Patil 0 0 0 0 0
Chetan Singai 0 0 0 0 0
Suchithra Menon 0 0 0 0 0
Anita Yadav 1 0 0 0 5 [I am hard pressed to accept the Kathmandu Law Review as an 'int'l publication']
Rahul Choragudi 0 0 0 0 0
Institutional Total = 83.75 [disregarding KA's 4 papers & weighting AY's paper as domestic, the score drops to 60.75].
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20
Like +7 Object -0 Further Nerdiness-5 30 May 18, 13:43  interesting
Everyone with 5 or more points.

NLU-D
Ranbir Singh 0 2 2 0 5
Ruhi Paul 1 0 0 0 5
Neeraj Tiwari 2 0 0 0 10
Aparna Chandra 1 2 3 4 11.5
Arul G. Scaria 1 0 1 0 5.5

NALSAR
Amita Dhanda 4 0 0 30 27.25
Faizan Mustafa 1 0 0 0 5
Jagteshwar Sohi 1 0 0 0 5
Neha Pathakji 1 1 0 0 7

NLSIU
V. Nagaraj 3 0 0 0 15
Rahul Singh 3 1 2 1 18.25
Yashomati Ghosh 2 0 0 0 10
Kumar Abhijeet 5 0 0 0 25
Kunal Ambasta 2 0 1 0 10.5
Anita Yadav 1 0 0 0 5
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20.1
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Like +0 Object -0 Bhaiya 30 May 18, 15:55
@Further Nerdiness: Can I tempt you to do this same analysis with all the faculty of NUJS too? In case you don't know all the names, I can write them here. At your own pace though, this couldn't have been very easy for you. Very good work done, by the way. Such a refreshing change to actually come across some positive and analytical work being done in the comments section!
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20.2
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Like +3 Object -0 Guest 30 May 18, 15:57
This is fascinating. Here are some suggestions for improving the methodology (in the hope of generating a methodology that may be applied to rate faculty (on publications) beyond the LI comments section:

1. Domestic publications: Include all institutional journals, at least those published by the NLUs. Include journals published by private publishers only if the journal is indexed on Hein, JSTOR, Westlaw or Lexis. Most NLU journals are indexed on SCC Online.

2. Include only those international publications that are indexed on SCOPUS or Web of Science. This will ensure that quality of publication is accounted for and the current anomalies (of including Kathmandu Law Review etc) is removed.

2. Do NOT include book chapters or books (unless there is some way of categorizing publishers). At the least, include ONLY international publishers and not domestic ones.

3. Include international, national and state level policy documents generated by faculty members. That is, when an intergovernmental international institution like the UN, a Central institution like the Law Commission, the DOJ or the SC, or a state institution like a High Court has asked a faculty member to contribute to a policy document, that should be counted too.

3. Consider publications only for the last 10 years (or some such cut off). Prevents people from resting on their laurels. In the alternative, divide publication score by the number of years in service/ time between earliest and latest publication.

4. Proceed with the understanding that this is not the complete publication list (or research list) of each faculty, but only the part that is being counted. This should not be a huge concern bebcause all faculty members are being judged on the same criteria and are being placed relative to each other on the same criteria.

5. To procure information, create an inter-law school team that will collect publication data of faculty members for each law school, and verify it on the parameters mentioned here. Collection can be by way of asking the institution for the data, or through RTI. Get some big names behind the project and most law schools will feel compelled to release this data.

The use of this information will be important not only in this sort of ranking exercise, but also in recruitment of faculty, demand for better faculty etc.
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20.2.1
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Like +3 Object -0 Guest2 30 May 18, 16:32
While I agree with most of the suggestions, I disagree with the argument that books or book chapters should be removed. We can give different scores for international and domestic publishers. For example, books published by publishing houses like Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press or Edward Elgar can be given higher scores, while those published by domestic publishers like SCC or Satyam can be given another score. Similar approach could be taken with regard to book chapters also, depending on where it was published.
With regard to reports also, we could have a classification system based on who published the report - an international organisation/ central government/ state government/ university, and each category could be given different scores.
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20.2.1.1
Like +5 Object -0 Guest 30 May 18, 16:55  interesting
I agree with this. Also, there's no reason why relatively unknown international law journals ought to be disregarded altogether. If you are considering Hein indexation to be good enough for your purpose (to the extent that you are considering only those journals that are reflected there and not others in which one might have published), then all the journals featuring there ought to be considered too, be it Kathmandu or Timbaktu. Lesser weightage, maybe? But how does one do that without being subjective? I think all of them should be considered, with proper disclaimers as to exactly how many 'dubious' entries are there for each faculty member. Let the numbers and the information speak for itself.
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20.2.1.1...
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Like +0 Object -0 20.2 30 May 18, 17:20
I made the suggestions at 20.2. I looked into it, and there are various credible rankings of academic publishers, eg SENSE. This will work only for international book publications. There has to be some way of weeding out the completely useless and predatory publishers. India is the biggest hub globally of such publishers. This is why I do think we should keep out domestic publishers altogether. Yes, this means EBC goes out too.

For international journals, those that are not indexed on SCOPUS or Web of Science could be given the same weightage as domestic journals? Or another way to think about this is to do away with domestic and international altogether. A SCOPUS/ Web of Science publication gets you 5 points. A Hein/Westlaw/JSTOR only index gets you 2 points, a University journal not indexed on Hein etc, gets you .5 points. And some discount for your home institution journal.
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20.2.1.1...
Like +6 Object -0 Guest 30 May 18, 18:09  interesting
I have an issue with having such an obvious bias towards SCOPUS and WOS indexed journals. Those who publish regularly would know that they have extremely few Indian journals (at least on Law) indexed for a multitude of reasons (I think JIPR is there and EPW). No doubt the international journals listed by them are very good indeed, but many of those journals have a policy not to accept a paper from a foreign jurisdiction unless it reflects a comparative aspect and that means many quality articles get missed out as a result. For scientific journals, it makes sense, because those papers really cut across borders/jurisdictions, but for law, it is still not equally viewed. I think it is much easier to weed out predatory journals. I am yet to find out any such journals listed in the mainstream databases like Hein, Westlaw, JSTOR etc., correct me if I'm wrong.

As for books, same thing applies to international publishers. They do not always accept quality research work unless it has a sufficiently broad audience internationally (from their perspective, it makes sense because they are there to make profit, after all). I have actually seen an extremely in-depth study made on manual scavenging and related laws in some Indian cities get rejected by multiple international publishers on that very ground though all of them were unanimous about its quality. So, removing at least genuine domestic publishers like EBC seems quite harsh. Have lesser weightage for them, that makes sense.

Also, here is an interesting thought. A lot of young legal scholars are now getting interested in open-access movement and making a conscious choice not to publish their work in paywalled journals, instead choosing to publish some very good work in blogs, etc.. It would be quite good to have a discussion regarding how to capture such quality scholarship. Let's turn this comment section to yield something constructive. I already think this is the best LI thread in terms of that in 2018 at least. :D
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20.2.1.1...
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Like +2 Object -1 20.2 30 May 18, 20:36
I agree in principle with your concerns, but in practice these concerns aren't really borne out, IMHO. Yes, it is difficult to get published in SCOPUS and WoS indexed journals, but not impossible. Many journals indexed there specifically focus on non-Western scholarship. NIRF rankings did show that Indian law academics were publishing in these journals. The people who will be advantaged by giving more points for SCOPUS or WoS are those who do international law related work. But this concern of unfair advantage for certain types.of scholarship has to be balanced against weighting publications for quality.

While predatory journals are not listed on Hein etc, the quality of some of the journals listed there is questionable. Specifically, the quality of articles in some of the Indian university journals can be very problematic. This is especially true for publications by very senior academics, especially some VCs. Giving equal weightage to all hein publications will give those with clout an unfair advantage.

Re: book publishers, most of the top publisher have indian imprints. CUP, OUP, SAGE, Routlegde, Thompson Reuters etc. So to say that getting India specific work published by top international publisher is difficult is not really true. Is excluding EBC harsh? Yes. What is the alternative? I am not sure. Can someone think of an objective way to classify domestic publishers? A Tier system like the MPL? Who decides?

Thinking more on this: we need to account for other institutional publications like ijil, jili, etc which are not indexed but have decent quality. One (admittedly problematic) solution is to have a catch-all category of publications which do not fall into any of the other pools, but put a cap on the points one can get from that category. Without this cap, we will devolve into the same UGC API type muddle where quantity ends up counting for more than wuality.
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Like +1 Object -0 Guest 30 May 18, 23:45
Good response and counter to my earlier points! I am convinced by at least 2 of your points. The tier suggestion is actually quite intriguing, may provide journal/publisher with incentive to better themselves. If only all LI comment threads were like this. Also, why does it feel like we have had this conversation outside LI in the real world before? It would be quite funny to find out we may actually know each other, given we share similar concerns about Indian legal academia at least.
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Like +2 Object -0 20.2 31 May 18, 10:36
I wouldn't be surprised if we've had this conversation in real life:) There are so few of us interested in the esoteric art of ranking faculty publications. But really, this is of supreme importance especially as we move towards more law schools gaining autonomy. Rankings have a huge impact on institutional priorities, and can serve as positive incentives for universities to themselves incentivise good research and make the university more hospitable for research. That should help in attracting more talent to academia. I know that since NIRF counts SCOPUS and WoS publications only, some universities are already pushing faculty to publish more in journals indexed there. And Jindal is apparently pushing faculty to publish in SCOPUS indexed journals because that is what the world ranking systems count, and jindal aspires to break into those rankings.

So if rankings matter, we should also consider negative points for publishing in predatory journals - there is a credible open list of such journals.

Given the entrenched nature of mediocrity in legal academia, there will be a lot of push back to such an enterprise. Need to get some big guns on board: Menon, M P Singh, maybe even Mohan Gopal and Baxi?

Since NALSAR has money left over from this project (per Siddharth Chauhan's comment above) maybe reach out to them to include this exercise as part of the doj project and fund whatever might be required to set this up??
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Like +3 Object -0 kianganz 31 May 18, 10:45 LI subscriber
Fantastic discussion, we'd love to help also, in whatever way possible...
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Like +4 Object -0 20.2 31 May 18, 11:39
Could you pull out all comments on publication ranking and methods from the comments section and do a separate post on it? Starting with the original nerd's method and ranking, and covering it's critique and the further discussion on method.People who might not be following this comment section might have inputs too. After crowdsourcing views, we think of the best way to take this forward. Thanks!
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Like +3 Object -0 Guest 31 May 18, 13:55
Kian please see my comment (no 21) where I said you should do the faculty ranking yo had promised. This is a great time because the SC has asked whether National Importance status can be given to NLUs + the NALSAR report is out + NIRF is out + the government is taking measures to put Indian universities in world rankings + CLAT results are out.

It will not take you more than 3 or 4 days to google for each professor from the top 4 NLUs on journal databases. You can even include NLUJ, NLIU and GNLU. If you partner with an agency or even with Prof Chauhan's team, then it can be an official, statistically verified ranking that can be sent to NIRF.

Please do this. If you can do a placement ranking + faculty ranking + moot ranking , we can really have a good NLU ranking.
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Like +9 Object -1 Guest 30 May 18, 18:51  interesting
Kian and Prachi, I hope you are taking cognisance of these excellent comments trying to scientifically compare NLU faculty research. LI one promised us to do an NLU faculty ranking, but like most of your promises it was an empty one. You should invite these anonymous commenters to reveal themselves and write an article on LI comparing the output on SCOPUS + Westlaw + Hein Online (which has most tier 1 NLU journals) + JSTOR. If they are shy, then just partner with someone else and do it. Maybe a neutral third party like a statistician, or an IT company like Thomson Reuters (which runs Westlaw).

You have to google for each NLU professor on these databases. Assuming that there are 120 professors in the top 4 NLUs, at 8 mins a professor that will take 960 minutes = 13 hours = 2 days work if you can get help.

We are now at a stage when students will be choosing between law schools, and the NALSAR report has told us that faculty is important. So why not officially do a faculty ranking? Your favourite NLSIU will get thrashed.
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Like +6 Object -0 Guest 30 May 18, 20:16  interesting
I am neither from NLSIU, nor have any particular bias towards it, but in the abovementioned comments, didn't it still come ahead of at least NALSAR and NLUD in terms of points? I don't think the analysis was done for NUJS, at least I couldn't see it here. Of course, given NLSIU had a full 15 years of head start on even NALSAR, let alone NLUD, and have more senior faculty members there, that gives them an edge in terms of numbers at the very least.
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Like +8 Object -0 Further Nerdiness-6 31 May 18, 21:14  interesting
I have carried on further nerdiness to include NUJS & Jindal [only assistant profs] working on the same methodology outlined above.

I included NUJS as someone specifically asked for it to be included, and Jindal because it is widely perceived to have the best.

Limitation vis-a-vis Jindal: I started out checking the assistant profs (as when I had only provided details for senior faculty initially someone took offence), but got too tired going through all 70 of them and never got around to the Profs and Associate Profs (who I do believe would do much better).

NLU-D = 51.5 from 32 profs [1.61/prof]; 18 of 32 at zero (56.25% at 0)
NALSAR = 49 from 24 profs [2.04/prof]; 18 of 24 at zero (75% at 0)
NLSIU = 83.75 from 29 profs [2.88/prof]; 20 of 29 at zero (68.97%)
NUJS = 90.75 from 24 profs [3.78/prof]; 9 of 26 at zero (34.61%)
Jindal (assistant profs only) = 134.25 from 70 assistant profs; 56 of 70 at zero. 1.91/prof (80% at 0)

This scoring would place schools in the following order: NUJS, NLSIU, NALSAR, Jindal and NLU-D [on basis of average score per prof]; and
NUJS, NLU-D, NLSIU, NALSAR and Jindal [on basis of %age faculty members having publications noted on HeinOnline].

Editorial note: What surprised me is the fact that though Jindal is filled with faculty members coming from NLUs with foreign degrees at the graduate level, they haven't published all that much.

As such, these are people who never put out a paper in a publication run by their institution during under-grad nor have they published their research carried out during the graduate study. This might seem a bit below the belt, but does seem like a case of quantity over quality.
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Like +10 Object -0 Guest 31 May 18, 21:47  interesting
Does this mean NUJS teachers at present publish the most per teacher? I thought people here were completely writing off NUJS faculty in the last few law school related posts ;)
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Like +0 Object -10 Foster the People 31 May 18, 23:52
Not so fast. Because the journals some of them have published in are total crap desi journals. This is why Hein Online, Westlaw, JSTOR and SCOPUS should be the only criteria, and international journals given far more marks. But having said that, maybe NUJS students are too self critical, in that the bad professors get more flak than the good professors get praise. Anwyay, this thread has led to a lot of useful information and debate, unlike other threads on LI. There really needs to be a scientific study now to establish which NLU has the most productive faculty members research wise.
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Like +10 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 00:13  interesting
Err... these numbers are taken from Hein only. They don't take into account any dubious journals by your very own admission. I'm sure if other publications are taken into account, all the faculty mentioned here will get significant boost in terms of points. So by these numbers, it is still quite clear that in this parameter, NUJS faculty are at present ahead, though I agree that everybody has a long way to go still. Writing in dubious predatory journals isn't something that's particular to only people from NUJS, faculty members from all indian universities do that, chiefly because of brainless UGC rules.
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Like +11 Object -0 Further Nerdiness-7 31 May 18, 21:22  interesting
To keep with the tradition of recognizing people with greater than/equal to 5 points on my rather crude methodology, here are names for NUJS & Jindal (assistant profs only).

NUJS (total = 90.75 from 24)
Sandeepa Bhat 31.5
Manoj Kumar Sinha 19.25
Lovely Dasgupta 7.75
Shouvik Kumar Guha 6.75
N.S Srinivasulu 5

Jindal (assistant profs only, total = 134.25 from 70)
Arpan Banerjee 36.25
Saloni Khanderia 30
Oishik Sircar 14
Rohini Sen 10
Manveen Singh 10
Ashrita Prasad Kotha 7.25
Jhuma Sen 7
Danish Sheikh 6.75
Sannoy Das 5 [PS: these 9 account for 126.25 out of 134.25!!! The other 61 have a score of 8.)
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Like +5 Object -4 Birdman 31 May 18, 23:45
This is excellent stuff bro! You should write an article on this. And Kian, you simply must do a report on this. It will shatter the myth that NLSIU is the best NLU, let alone the "Harvard of the East". Going by placements + faculty output, NALSAR or NUJS would end up 1, then NLUD, then NLSIU. Adding moots, NLSIU will rise up the ranks and NUJS will fall a bit, but NLSIU may still lose the first place to NALSAR. This will be huge news, and lead to changes in NIRF and CLAT preferences next year. You really need to do this Kian, because it will create a storm! Ideally, you should also publish it in Mint. Why don't you approach a statistician to partner with you?

PLEASE DO THIS!!
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Like +10 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 00:08  interesting
NALSAR is a distant third as per these numbers regarding faculty publications and it has never beaten NUJS or NLSIU in terms of placement. So how exactly is it emerging as the topmost NLU as you seem to be claiming?
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Like +0 Object -0 Belieber 02 Jun 18, 00:07
The most well published scholar a JGLS is Prof Armin Rosencranz.
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Like +9 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 00:05  interesting
Regardless of all the bad press it has been receiving lately, it seems pretty clear from the numbers that with regard to both placements and faculty research output, NUJS is currently ahead of all NLUs. And this after receiving little admin support in recent years. Puts into perspective contrary claims of other NLUs having best faculty in the country, etc. Numbers do reveal most interesting pictures, don't they?
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Like +3 Object -9 Scientist 01 Jun 18, 00:34
In view of Prof Chauhan's report findings and the comments, this is how a law school ranking can be made:

Placements: 35 points
LLM scholarship offers: 5 points
Faculty: 25 points
Infrastructure and amenities: 20 points
Quality of location/neighbourhood: 5 points
Fees, scholarships, student support: 10 points
TOTAL = 100 points.

Then, this would be the ranking:

1) NALSAR: 77/100 (30/35 + 3/5 + 18/25 + 16/20 + 3/5 + 7/10)
2) NLUD: 76.5/100 (24/35 + 2.5/5 + 21/25 + 17/20 + 4/5 +8/10
NLSIU: 73/100 (29/35 + 4/5 + 16/25 + 13/20 + 3/5 + 8/10)
3) NUJS: 66.3/100 (31.5/35 + 2.8/5 +13/25 + 11/20 + 3/5 + 5/10)

Comments welcome.
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Like +14 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 01:18  interesting  top rated
You are just assigning random points on different factos and trying to distort what has so far been a fairly systematic and scientific analysis. This does not make any sense. On what ground, for example are you assigning placement points? Plus, under which parameter NUJS faculty is being marked lower than NALSAR faculty, when the analysis clearly indicates the opposite in terms of research publication output? You just like toying with numbers, eh? You have a self-conceived notion of who should be ranked where and you are providing random marks to fit that opinion. This is completely baseless.
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Like +4 Object -1 Sidharth Chauhan 01 Jun 18, 00:37
@Further Nerdiness:
While you have initiated an interesting discussion through a comparison of faculty publication records at 5 Indian institutions (NLSIU, NALSAR, NLU-Delhi, WBNUJS and JGLS), I should point out that these numbers can easily contribute to a lot of misunderstanding for LI readers. Those who are not directly engaged with scholarship may not easily comprehend the caveats that you have given in comment 16 and may instead form lasting impressions about individual faculty members based on the numbers quoted above. As you have yourself acknowledged, looking at the number of publications in the HeinOnline database alone or the list of SCOPUS Indexed Journals portrays a skewed picture of publication records in the Indian context.

It is especially unfair to older faculty members who began their careers several years before there was awareness of digital databases and the criteria for international rankings in Indian law schools. As another commentator has pointed out, some of the digital databases that are frequently used by legal scholars (JSTOR, Westlaw, HeinOnline, LexisNexis, Kluwer, Taylor & Francis) have only recently started including Indian academic publications, and several credible publications (both peer-reviewed and those which are not) do not appear in them. While JSTOR has included publications like the Economic and Political Weekly (EPW) and the Indian Journal of Political Science (IJPS), there are many others whose archives have not been included as yet. Looking at the HeinOnline database alone excludes many journals in the humanities and the social sciences which have carried articles by serving faculty members at the 5 chosen institutions. To give you a concrete example, NALSAR has several faculty members teaching social science and management subjects whose publications do not feature in your brief survey.

Even younger faculty members have published in credible domestic journals and edited volumes that are not found on HeinOnline. To give you my own example, you have tracked an article of mine which appeared in the Socio-Legal Review in 2009 (after I graduated from NLSIU) since it appears on HeinOnline, but other publications in a journal like Seminar (2013), a chapter in a book published by OUP UK (2016) and the DoJ report covered in this story do not feature in this database. I understand that there is a genuine concern about many serving faculty members having published in predatory journals or publications with very poor standards of review or editing. Apart from unacceptably high levels of plagiarism, we have also come across credible reports of faculty members having appropriated work done by their own students, presumably in order to boost their research scores for the purpose of applying for regularisation, promotions or external fellowships. We have explicitly acknowledged this problem in our report, but without taking individual names.

Our report has so far only cursorily touched on the issue of faculty publication records and the pursuit of longitudinal research projects. This is because we consciously chose to prioritise aspects such as the admissions process and the academic structures. Collecting information about the research output of faculty members at each NLU is not a very difficult task. Even though most of the institutional websites do not provide a full list of academic publications, the same can be collated from the annual reports that are submitted to the respective governing bodies of the NLUs. Some institutions have also disclosed this information in their respective reports submitted to the National Assessment and Accreditation Council (NAAC). Since we do intend to develop our report further into a book, we will definitely consider including a separate section that tracks the research output of the participating institutions. However, it might be more prudent to compile research scores as per the UGC's most recent (February 2018) draft regulations for recruitment and promotions of teachers.
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Like +5 Object -0 Third party. 01 Jun 18, 01:42  interesting
Sorry professor, I disagree with you.

1. Re old professors, yes they did not publish in Hein Online and JSTOR journals, but what stops them from doing so now? If anything, they should have more such publications. And the old generation extensively published in EPW and JILI. EPW is included in SCOPUS and JSTOR, JILI is in JSTOR. Can't see the problem. Also, look at BS Chimni's record. He has been publishing in top journals much before Hein Online. MP Singh as well.

2. I think it is fair to exclude Seminar, if we only include law faculty members and exclude social science faculty. We are assessing LAW scholarship here. And Seminar is an in-depth magazine rather than a specialised journal where scholarship is rigorously refereed by peers and references must be provided for arguments.

3. As for excluding book chapters, remember it is excluded for all not just for you. Everyone gets affected. Things even out for everyone. We are also excluding stuff by Amita Dhanda or Anup Surendranath.

4. The only argument that can be made is that Jindal should be excluded, as their profs get lots of luxuries, so it's like one player batting on a flat track versus one batting on a bouncy track. Moreover, Jindal is a money-making institution without any social purpose.

No ranking is perfect, this one too is flawed. But it's the best available under the circumstances and a fairly accurate metric of which NLU is the best.
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Like +0 Object -2 Sidharth Chauhan 01 Jun 18, 03:04
@ Third Party: I was only giving examples of my own publications (which are admittedly much fewer than what should have been by now) to illustrate the fallacy of comparing faculty publication records based on the HeinOnline database or the list of SCOPUS Indexed Journals alone. The original commmentator ('Further Nerdiness') had also accepted this limitation. I must also remind you that the numbers generated by 'Further Nerdiness' in the comments above were based on HeinOnline searches alone and did not include searches on JSTOR or other consolidated databases. So they do not reflect publications in EPW or JILI as you seem to suggest. So that is hardly a level-playing field to compare the research output of faculty members across institutions.

As for your specific responses, rigorous editing for a book can lead to a product that is better than an article that appears in a peer-reviewed journal and there are certainly some non-peer reviewed publications where the standards of acceptance are actually much higher than many which do have peer review. However, these incongruities do not take away from the prospective importance of publishing in journals that do appear in these internationally recognized databases, which are otherwise skewed in favour of academic publications from first world countries.

As for the past, there have been many Indian law professors such as Mohammed Ghouse, Rahmatullah Khan, S.P. Sathe, V.S. Rekhi and Parmanand Singh (to name a few) who published most of their scholarly work in Indian journals which till date do not appear in these internationally recognized databases. While we have had stalwarts such as Upendra Baxi, B.S. Chimni, M.P. Singh and Ved Nanda who have published extensively in foreign journals owing to their relatively early international exposure, let us not discredit the research efforts of those who are not as well known.

Lastly, why should we exclude scholarship by faculty members that has appeared in journals from other disciplines? If the comparison is across institutions, why should it be confined to those who are designated as law teachers. There are many social science teachers who are engaging with legal themes and there are several law teachers who have produced scholarship that has an interface with other disciplines. So I must strongly rebut your views on this count.
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Like +6 Object -0 Third Party 01 Jun 18, 18:40  interesting
Professor, I disagree once again. If you look at SP Sathe, I got a whopping 74 hits for him on JSTOR (all JILI and EPW pieces). I also got good hits for him on Hein Online, on Indian law articles written for foreign journals. For Parmanand Singh, I got 15 hits (all JILI). Lower yes, but still decent. So no one is disregarding such people, provided you use Hein + JSTOR + Westlaw + SCOPUS. Sathe has written many books and book chapters, but excluding them he still scores very well. And it's a disadvantage faced by all equally.

With respect to your point about "first world bias" in rankings, you are wrong. IISC and IIT underperform not because of bias, but because they teach only science and tech, whereas the Harvards and Oxfords teach medicine, law, literature etc, so they get more journal hits. In fact, IISC and IIT make it to the world's top 200 despite their narrow focus, which is actually really good.

Also, if you look at the QS and Times law school rankings, you have many Asian law schools, from China, Japan, Korea and Singapore, but not India. By your analogy, it's fine if Chinese and Japanese law scholars publish in SCOPUS journals (despite English being a second language for them) but India is special and our scholars must only publish in desi journals for a desi audience. Why??? On the contrary, shouldn't we give extra points to an Indian scholar who can place his/her country's laws in an international context, publish in a good international journal, and speak to an international audience --- as many in the old generation have, in fact, done? And we are recognising EPW and JILI and NLU journals listed in Hein, so what's the problem???

With due respect, I think your problem is what you have identified. Your own publications are, as you say, "much fewer than what should have been by now" and this is making you criticise the rankings. I am not blaming you, because you are a brilliant professor and in India there is no incentive or opportunity to publish as professors get a lot of non-research work. But once again, everyone else also has these disadvantages. If you got a bad pitch to bat on, the others will also get the same bad pitch.

Finally, about the non-legal discipline point, it's only Seminar that seems to be missing out. EPW and Contributions to Indian Sociology are there in SCOPUS, along with tons of non-law journals. JSTOR is also very comprehensive. And the point I made about Seminar is that it is not an academic journal in the true sense. More like a magazine with lengthy opinion pieces. Even the website of Seminar describes itself as a Magazine.
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Like +2 Object -2 Sidharth Chauhan 02 Jun 18, 23:53
@ Third Party: Thanks for your willingness to extend this debate. I wholeheartedly accept the criticism about having a poor publication record so far. I am sure that many others in my age-group who are teaching at the various NLUs will also accept the same. However, you seem to have misconstrued some of the other points that I made in the previous comment.

I had given the examples of some of the older Indian Law Professors (a few of whom have passed away now) to illustrate how a large proportion of their scholarship will simply not appear in consolidated databases. Since you gave the specific example of Prof. S.P. Sathe, please do account for the fact that journals like EPW and JILI have only been included in the JSTOR database in the last few years and many of the hits that you have found are citations to his famous book on Judicial Review which was published in 2002. Citations to popular books and articles tend to have a snowballing effect and may not accurately reflect a scholar's output in quantitative terms. There are dozens of other publications by him (including peer-reviewed articles in domestic journals) which simply do not feature in HeinOnline or JSTOR. This is attributable to several reasons, one being discontinuity in the publication of some journals and another being the lack of awareness or initiative on part of a publisher to include a journal's archives in these consolidated databases. You will find a similar pattern of exclusion if you run the numbers for other senior scholars such as Upendra Baxi, M.P. Singh and B.S. Chimni among others. This pattern will also extend to several serving teachers who are now in their 50s and 60s respectively. However, I will concede to your point partially when it comes to younger teachers and scholars (mostly in their 30s and 40s) who have started academic careers in the age of digital databases.

As for 'first world bias', you have responded to that phrase without accounting for my sentence as a whole. I was talking about 'first world bias' in the list of publications selected for the SCOPUS Index and the HeinOnline database. I was not talking about international rankings. I am not denying the importance of producing scholarship that adds value from an international and comparative perspective, thereby having a much better chance of being accepted by journals based in other countries. There are some fields like Intellectual Property, International Trade, International Human Rights, Environmental Law and Corporate Governance among others, where this is absolutely essential. However, this does not mean that we should completely disregard scholarship that is addressing domestic problems for a domestic audience.

To give you a hypothetical, a thorough empirical study of lower court judges' working conditions might reach the intended audience more effectively through a non-peer reviewed domestic publication such as SCC-Journal or Mainstream instead of a highly rated journal like the 'Law and Society Review' which is behind a paywall and is hence not accessible to a large section of law students and practitioners in India. Similarly, a paper that examines some of the issues plaguing Indian law schools may not have much of an impact if it appears in the 'Journal of Legal Education' which is listed on SCOPUS. In comparison, it might attract more engagement if it appears in a domestic publication. Maybe this is more of an ideological debate rather than one about measuring research output. I am not even addressing the interests of older scholars here. I am more concerned about the direction of future research efforts. Should we direct our energies to acquire more hits on international databases or should we aim to produce knowledge that is better suited to our context?

I also did not understand how you escalated the discussion towards a comparison with Universities in other Asian countries. The larger universities in China, Japan and South Korea have undoubtedly been producing more research across several disciplines such as the natural sciences, engineering and management. However, their contributions towards legal scholarship in SCOPUS Indexed journals is not as impressive. The exceptions to this are law schools in locations such as Singapore (NUS and SMU), Hong Kong (HKU, CUHK), Kuala Lumpur (University of Malaya) and Manila (Ateneo, De La Salle) since they have a deeper engagement with Western Universities in terms of faculty recruitment and curricular content. In any case, it is difficult to directly compare the research output from relatively smaller institutions such as the NLUs with larger multidisciplinary university systems, whether within the country or outside. This is because the NLUs have a much smaller pool of faculty members and research students (Ph.D.) when compared with the law departments at some of the South-East Asian Universities that I have mentioned above. It is conceivable that a better-resourced institution like JGLS might be able to match their numbers in the future.

With respect to Indian social science journals, the exclusion is much deeper than what you are suggesting. For every journal that is included in the SCOPUS Index (Economic and Political Weekly, Contributions to Indian Sociology, Indian Social and Economic History Review) there are several other credible Indian journals which have not been included. I wasn't really pushing the point about Seminar. In such discussions, one has to think about larger institutional interests rather than those at a personal level.
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Like +1 Object -0 Guest 03 Jun 18, 11:27
@Siddharth Chauhan, so what's the solution? Don't rank faculty publications at all? Default to the very problematic UGC scoring that makes little distinction between quality and quantity, or something else? One easy way to get over the perceived unfairness to older academics is to count only publications in the last 5-10 years. This will take care of the concerns you have, and also ensure that younger faculty are not disadvantaged by having fewer publishing years.
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 03 Jun 18, 19:18
Technically, this is being done to compare institutional performance only, right? So no reason younger faculty would suffer because of this. All the NLUs do have such faculty members, so it would balance out anyway. Plus, it would be an evolving ranking, so as people keep publishing more every year, their points would increase too, surely.
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Like +1 Object -0 Guest 04 Jun 18, 06:11
Yes but this will compare institutional performance by measuring individual performance, and rankings of this sort does impact reputation and morale. Also people who have published in the past should'nt be able to sit on their laurels. We want to compare the current output of the faculty, not their past glory.
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Like +1 Object -0 Good 03 Jun 18, 20:41
Agree with you. 10 years should be the cut off else NLSIU will get an unfair advantage. So only publications from 2008 to 2018.
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Like +0 Object -0 Snoop Dogg 01 Jun 18, 01:46
Dear LI, you always highlight the negative side of NLUs. Why not take this opportunity to highlight the positive side: many faculty at NLUs are publishing and doing good research? You can pick out the top 10 profs at NLUs and highlight their research. There are at least 5 real stars at NLUD doing good research. Then of course you have people like Shamnad Basheer, Sudhir Krishnaswamy and Lawrence Liang (minus the scandal).
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Like +0 Object -3 Guest 01 Jun 18, 02:10
Sudhir Krishnaswamy's publications, on HeinOnline, would give him a score of 4.5 on this scale. Lawrence Liang stands at 8.25, while Shamnad Basheer has a much bigger score.

Further, Anup Surendranath at 0 and Chimayi Arun further underscore the 'problem' with this scoring scheme as these are big-5 among the younger generation of academics who are NLU graduates.
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Like +0 Object -1 Someone 01 Jun 18, 04:24
1. Here is his CV:
watson.brown.edu/southasia/files/southasia/imce/people/Faculty/VisitingScholars/KrishnaswamyCVJune2017.pdf

I can see 1 in SLR (listed in Hein), 6 in EPW (listed in SCOPUS and JSTOR), 2 in IJLT (listed in Hein), 1 in a Nalsar journal (listed in Hein). None in an international journal, but still a higher score than what you claim.

[...]

[...]
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 10:53
These are his [articles] listed on HeinOnline:

1. Intellectual Property and India's Development Policy [article]
Indian Journal of Law and Technology, Vol. 1, Issue (2005), pp. 169-176

2. Recasting the LLM: Course Design and Pedagogy [article]
Socio-Legal Review, Vol. 9, Issue 1 (2013), pp. 101-120

3. Legal and Judicial Reform in India: A Call for Systemic and Empirical Approaches [article]
Journal of National Law University, Delhi, Vol. 2, pp. 1-25
with Sivakumar, Sindhu K. and Bail, Shishir

4. United Nations and Global Peace and Security [article]
Student Advocate, Vol. 9, pp. 58-68
with Sinha, Pooja

Each of these, bar no. 3, is a 'home' journal for him.
Hence, a score of 0.5 + 0.5 + 2 + 0.5 = 3.5

Moreover, he has been cited twice - 0.25 * 2 = 0.5

Total score (based on above mentioned parameters however limited they may be) is 4 [not even 4.5 (honest mistake)]
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Like +1 Object -0 ?? 01 Jun 18, 11:42
Why are u not counting EPW??
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Like +1 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 11:51
EPW is not indexed on HeinOnline. If you read back to the beginning of this 'series' of inter-related comments (Comment # 14) you'll see why the focus has been on HeinOnline.
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Like +0 Object -1 @@ 01 Jun 18, 12:59
From what I can see people are counting Hein Online, Westlaw, Jstor and Scopus..
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 16:16
In that case you would be wrong.
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Like +1 Object -0 Someone 01 Jun 18, 11:40
My comment was censored, so reframing it: I think a glance at SK's CV will show [...] Good grades at NLSIU yes (allowing a ticket to Oxford) but no publications in any international journals. Not saying any more since it was censored.
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26.2.2.3
Like +4 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 08:43
Isn't this absolutely the wrong way to go about any kind of empirical work? You have made up your mind about who should score well and if they don't then the method is the problem. Putting the cart before the horse much? Maybe Anup Surendranath doesn't publish much in peer reviewed spaces? Do you have information to the contrary?

The Hein method is incomplete, but it is a start. The discussion shows that it is possible to create a sophisticated method to rank faculty publications.
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26.3
Like +6 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 04:38  interesting
@Sidharth Chauhan:

I preface my comment by unequivocally stating that this is not meant to be a remark questioning your abilities and capacities as an academic. The intention is to stress why blind peer reviewed publications is a good method of commencing an evaluation. Especially in a society like ours where knowing the right people can help some take the fast road to success.

The list of contributors to the Oxford Handbook that you refer above has an oddity. There are two types of people involved: those with years of experience that one would expect to see and others who are relatively new (and we would expect to see in the future). The latter largely come from a particular school.

Please note, I am not challenging the final product delivered by these people. I am sure it was blind peer reviewed before publication. However, what I am trying to point out is that you (and maybe others) were 'picked-up' to be a part of the journey not based on a prior list of publications around the particular topic.

Maybe you were picked because the people coordinating the exercise knew your research/writing skills and/or interest in the area. However, could these people be sure there was no one else in the country who could do a similar job, or a better one, on the topic?

Once again, the fact that you ended up doing a good job is not my concern. Maybe you were the right person but can we be sure that you were you the best? The call to involve you was made by people who knew you, and other contributors like you, from a common reference point - law school, grad school or academic/social circles.

This is why you, and others, must show your ability to able to 'get-in' when your name and face value isn't a factor carrying you, i.e. blind peer review.

Apologies that this came out to be ad hominem. However, it is a question worth asking. It is worth asking that after the DU, Aligarh, BHU circles that have dominated Indian legal academia, is another one based out of Nagarbhavi being created? The point is not that these circles aren't based on capacity, but that they are based on exclusion providing greater opportunities to those that begin from the front of the class.
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26.3.3
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 12:51
This is absolutely true for most edited volumes. If one were to examine the publication list of senior vice chancellors, I am sure we will find a huge tilt towards invited contributions and home journals rather than in independently and anonymously peer reviewed journals.

Having said that, let's not think journals give everyone a level playing field either. Who you know matters even for journals, especially domestic journals and special theme issues.

Regardless, the purpose of the exercise is to judge the quality of publications and not how one came to publish in a particular book/journal. If we add top academic publishers to our list for ranking purposes, we can be sure that these books undergo serious anonymous peer reviewing. So it isn't as if the quality is necessarily suspect. A ranking list can only do so much: either give you a picture of the publication output of the entire faculty of a law school, or a snapshot of the publication outcome of a single person. It cannot solve the problems of the entire academia.
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26.3.4
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Like +2 Object -1 Sidharth Chauhan 03 Jun 18, 00:11
@ Guest: A decade ago (when I had just graduated from NLSIU) I would have uncritically accepted your point that contributions to peer-reviewed journals should carry more weightage than those in edited volumes. However, after having seen how several editorial boards of peer-reviewed journals (both faculty-led and student-led, In India and abroad) function, one realises that 'reputational capital' plays a role in many ways. It could be invoked through the people who are acknowledged for giving feedback and even the style of writing. In the real sense, it is very difficult to create effective filters against the influence of institutional loyalties and personal friendships. As for the specific example of The Oxford Handbook of the Indian Constitution, there was a predominance of NLSIU alumni among the contributors because one of the editors happened to be one as well. I don't think that any of the contributing authors will deny or deflect this criticism.

However, you might be overstating the concerns about the possible dominance of legal scholarship by NLSIU alumni in the 2020s and 2030s. It is only a marginal number of people from this group who are pursuing academic careers in India, be it at the various NLUs, research organisations or other Universities. Graduates from many other institutions are also doing well as scholars, both in domestic and international circles. So it is only a matter of time before we see a better spread of such opportunities.
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26.4
Like +4 Object -0 Raju KC 01 Jun 18, 09:10
How would you quantify the teaching output? Ignoring the assessment of the teaching capabilities has played havoc with classroom teaching and interactions in all the Universities all over India. The major culprit is introduction of API scores for promotions and recruitments of faculty. The faculty is compelled to run after predatory journals for collecting points, fetching certificates of participation in conferences etc.
Have your report given some suggestions on the issue of declining teaching standards in NLUs?
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Like +0 Object -1 Guest 01 Jun 18, 04:32
Papers are all reporting that CLAT toppers have chosen NLSIU. This is very sad. In both placements and faculty research NLSIU is NOT number 1. The admin sucks too. And the infra is better at NLUD, Nalsar and GNLU. Just shows the power fo NLSIU's publicity machine (helped by the likes of Bar & Bench and LI, who never print negative stories about the college).
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27.1
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Like +1 Object -0 NLSIU overrated 01 Jun 18, 12:25
Kian Ganz is one of the villains for overhyping NLSIU and making most CLAT aspirants choose it even though placements, faculty and infrastructure wise NALSAR is better.
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27.1.1.1
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Like +1 Object -0 20.2 01 Jun 18, 12:55
Kian, much as we all love your trolling of trolls, do consider replying to comments above about taking this forward?
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Like +3 Object -0 kianganz 01 Jun 18, 13:01 LI subscriber
Yes, we're actually working on it currently, since the comments above have been amazing. We are mostly looking at a refactoring of some of the above discussion, with the addition of a couple of other ideas, which will hopefully kick off some interesting thoughts and could open the door to a collaboration or so.

In fact, if any of the authors of some of the comments can get in touch, that'd be great - we will keep identities confidential of course.

You can reach me via this link: Contact Us
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Like +2 Object -0 1234567 01 Jun 18, 13:30
Agree with you, friend. High time LI does an official ranking of placements, faculty and moots (3 separate rankings). To lend credibility, some eminent people can be jury members and the ranking can be in partnership with a reputed agency. It can be inaugurate by Prof Menon and a senior judge, and then sent to NIRF. Let's see how NIRF ignores it then.

Suggested criteria:

1) PLACEMENTS AND CAREER OUTCOMES

a) 50 points straight if no student unemployed
b) Very high points for foreign law firms
c) Very high points for UPSC success (for up to two batches senior to the current one, so a 2016 pass out is clubbed with the 2018 batch)
d) Very high points for Rhodes, Gates, Felix, Inlaks and Chevening
e) High points for SC judicial clerkships
f) High points for Big 7 firms
g) High points for other 100% LLM scholarships obtained
h) High points for Supreme Court Senior Advocate chambers (Delhi-based only)
i) Moderate points for small firms, other lawyer's chambers and small NGOs (all treated at par)

This is a fair system taking care of all student aspirations.

2) FACULTY QUALITY

a) High points for books published by OUP, CUP, Elgar, Routledge
b) Moderate points for EBC, Lexis, Universal
c) Low points for others
d) High points for journals listed in SCOPUS, JSTOR, Hein, Westlaw
e) Low points for other journals
f) Very high points for each faculty member with a PhD from a university ranked in the top 50 law schools in either QS or Times Higher Education Law ranking
g) High points for PhDs from other law schools in the rankings
h) High points for PhDs from select research institutes and universities (e.g. Max Planck, JNU, IIM, IIT)
i) Low points for PhDs from other Indian universities (including NLUs)
j) Apply PhD criteria mutatis mutandis to LLMs

3) MOOTS

- Use LI MPL rankings

If you want to combine these into a single ranking, then add factors like fees and scholarship, faculty-student ratio, student exchange programmes etc.
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 01 Jun 18, 18:05
I know for a fact that a lot of CLAT rankers are reading these posts, so please post sensibly and don't give bullshit facts. Also, we are forgetting that within faculty you need to see which subject the star profs teach in. If my interest is corporate law, how do I benefit with an excellent human rights prof and bad corp law prof??
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Like +0 Object -3 Gest 03 Jun 18, 08:45
Do star Prof. exist in Indian Law schools?
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28.1.1
Like +4 Object -0 Guest 03 Jun 18, 10:39
Given some keep getting named on this website, one would have to say yes.
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Like +3 Object -0 Guest 02 Jun 18, 00:00
To those dissing NLS: Get half as many Rhodes scholars, Jessup wins, Magic Circle placements NLS achieved in its first 15 years in your first 15 years. Also get half as many distinguished visiting profs from abroad that NLS has got. Then we'll see.
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Like +2 Object -2 Gareth Bale 03 Jun 18, 09:23
Here is a simple way to rank law schools:

1) Placements: Only count big UK firms and Big 7 Indian firms; Only count 100% scholarships received at Oxford, Cambridge, top 5 US law schools

2) Faculty research: 1 point for each foreign law journal article, 0.5 point for Indian law journal article

3) Infrastructure: Points for size of campus, whether single rooms for all, whether classrooms and hostel rooms air conditioned

4) Moots: Follow MPL table

I think it will be a tussle between Nalsar and NLS for top position based on these criteria.
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Like +7 Object -3 Christiano R. 03 Jun 18, 11:22
NUJS is more likely to be ahead in the first two criteria, as evidenced from data here. Third one it will be behind though and fourth too.
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Like +2 Object -1 Guest 03 Jun 18, 20:44
Are you on bhang, my friend? If you do a 10 year comparison no way will have NUJS students got more Magic Circle placements and for foreign law journals and perhaps only Shamnad Basheer will have international journals if you count the last 10 years.
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Like +4 Object -1 Guest 04 Jun 18, 11:34
Clearly you are the one smoking here. Or did you not see the stats revealed in the comments above, where NUJS scored highest in terms of faculty publications over NLSIU, NALSAR, NLUD and Jindal? And that's just considering Hein database. Plus, nobody said NUJS produces highest number of foreign firm entrants, but it does produce comparable number with NLSIU and NALSAR and when it comes to top 7 Indian firms, even this year NUJS DZ has seen more people getting jobs than NLSIU and NALSAR COMBINED. Simply because you lack the ability to argue based on data, that doesn't make your claim true, quite the contrary in fact.
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Like +0 Object -1 Guest 03 Jun 18, 13:13
An ideal jury member for the rankings (at least the faculty research component) is an academic who is not an NLU graduate and is presently not teaching at an NLU, but is still a good scholar. While people like Chimni and Baxi are too senior to associate with such things, perhaps someone like Prabhash Ranjan can be approached as a non-interested party.
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Like +5 Object -1 Guest 03 Jun 18, 19:16
A person who's resigned after open disagreements with 2 NLU authorities will hardly be considered as an unbiased jury member, regardless of his scholarly achievements, which I personally admire.
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31.1.1
Like +4 Object -0 xxxxxxxxx 03 Jun 18, 20:45
Why is a jury member needed? It's just an objective search on Westlaw, Hein Online etc. Anyone can do it.
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Like +5 Object -7 Guest 03 Jun 18, 20:57  controversial
Here is the Careers 360 ranking. I think it's the most accurate one so far, as it covers all the NLUs unlike India Today and Outlook. It also rightly recognises NLUD as #2 like NIRF.




law.careers360.com/colleges/ranking/2018
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Like +10 Object -2 Guest 04 Jun 18, 11:37  interesting
People who made this are idiots. As are you. If you choose to place NUJS at 6, go ahead and do it and advise students you know the same. You won't be doing them any favour. NLUD gets ranked that high only in the dreams of the people and the admin there.
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Like +3 Object -9 Down to Earth 04 Jun 18, 15:20
So your view NIRF is wrong, Careers 360 is wrong everyone is wrong. Only India Today and Outlook are right as they placed NUJS at 2 (because other NLUs did not participate, LOL). You should understand that law school rankings are not made on the basis of placements alone (where NUJS is strong) but on a whole lot of factors (where NUJS is weak). These include:

1. Faculty publications and citations.

2. Internationalisation (exchange programme with foreign universities, foreign students enrolling etc). NLUD, NALSAR and NLSIU do well here.

3. Reputation and brand recognition: this is a major reason why NLSIU keeps topping rankings. In the case of NUJS, even junior school nature clubs have better websites.

4. Faculty-student ratio.

You need consistency all round to get a good rank.
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32.1.1.1
Like +10 Object -3 Guest 04 Jun 18, 16:29  interesting
Let's take your points one at a time.
1. Re faculty publications, if you read the earlier comments of this very post, you would find it that NUJS is second to none. You have given zero data to prove otherwise. Even NIRF did no proper study on that, choosing instead to rely upon whatever data individual universities supplied without verifying those. If you read other posts at LI only, you would know that. Clearly you don't.
2. "Internationalization" - whatever that means. Can you show any data as to how NLUJ, or KGP IITs law school has more exchange programmes than NUJS? I'd love to know that.
3. Reputation: I agree this is important and your point about nlsiu. Don't agree that university website is the only marker for that. NUJS' reputation has been built on the basis of student and alumni performance, achievements and no matter what you say, that's not been eclipsed by anybody else so far barring possibly NLSIU. (I'd agree NALSAR is equally good, not better. NLUD and others are still much behind).
4. This is one area where NUJS is weak at present. But sufficient enough to be ranked behind IIT, NLUJ and NLUD? Absolutely not.

As for trusting ranking, any ranking that tries to compare IIT's law wing with NLUs is already questionable. Former doesn't even offer undergraduate programmes.

A lot of people have been going ga ga about NLUD and JGLS' superior faculty for long here. A simple study by Further Nerdiness exposed here earlier that such are claims too tall to be true even on the basis of publications alone.
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Like +2 Object -9 Down to Earth 04 Jun 18, 19:38
1) I have seen the comments. It's a selective search and highly flawed. Like your Prof Sandip Bhatt for example, who is the highest scorer. His website lists an NUJS law journal as international. How ??? And if you see the comments, in the same journal there is a book review by a senior professor that was posted. No need to say more. Then Mysore Law Journal, Karnataka Law Journal, Kare Law Journal etc. How are these good journals??? I can't see JILI, EPW, NLSIU journals. And some of the things listed are not even journals. A search should be done of Hein, Westlaw etc, as has been pointed out. Then the books listed are of ICFAI and EBC, which are not prestigious.
www.nujs.edu/faculty/sandeep-bhat.html

Re NLUD and JGLS no search was done of the whole faculty. Please compare your top scorer with the NLUD top scorer in a proper search.

I accept that Prof Chimni or Prof Shamnad have good journals, but they are ex faculty.

2) I found info info on IIT international collaborations. Looks like IIT has a whole cell dedicated to it and it seems the law school has a close tie up with George Washington and has student exchanges two ways. Do you have this? If yes, pls give info.

iitkgp.ac.in/international-mou
www.international.iitkgp.ac.in
www2.gwu.edu/~magazine/archive/2009_law_winter/feature_india.html
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/iit-kharagpur-hosts-students-from-george-washington-university-law-school/articleshow/57854839.cms

3) So you don;t have a website with any information and expect NIRF rankers and outsiders to get a good impression from a few CAM associates?? What about other things like bad press? Reports of faculty exodus? That counts negatively.

4) I cannot comment. But you need to give data. Batch size versus faculty.

Once again, your argument is that students and alumni are good and got good placement, so NUJS should be ranked high. It does not work like that. Ok, so maybe NLUJ is ranked wrongly, but I am not convinced you are better than NLUD, NALSAR or the IIT school in areas OTHER THAN student and alumni success. It's like this: you can have Virat Kohli and Rohit Sharma in your team plus 9 crappy players. That still makes you an average team, because it's a team that wins the match.

The bottom-line is this: you are just resentful of NLUD overtaking you.
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Like +8 Object -1 Guest 04 Jun 18, 20:27  interesting
It's pretty clear now that you don't read things before commenting about them. The point system that was mentioned here earlier WAS based on Hein and none of the problematic factors you mentioned slipped through that. You can argue that Hein alone isn't enough. But till someone actually does a study including all other proper databases too and comes up with another result, it's still perfectly indicative. Also, the study has been done of all faculty of NLUD. Simply scrolling down would have revealed that, but you seem to be the sort who prefer writing his opinion over reading actual facts. Only Associate and fullProfessors of JGLS got missed out by Further Nerdiness. The very fact that you didn't realise it reveals how quickly you arrive at your opinion without doing any research. You are identifying one guy's bad book reviews. Nobody doubts he's bad. Try reading all the works of all faculty member of top NLUs and you will find multiple similar gems. The fact that one has written for Karnataka Law review doesn't preclude one from writing for Columbia either (NUJS faculty have done both, FYI).

Regarding other points, i can still point out the flaws in your logic, but given how your arguments have so far been about things you don't read properly, why on earth should I bother? I have no desire to convince you how good NUJS is. It can and does exist without your ignorant validation. If you are arguing that NUJS students do everything better or comparable with those from other law schools, despite having everything else much worse than in other law schools, I have no problem with that. That actually means students here are better as per logic. That should still induce good students to come here and actually learn and I'm fine with that. You keep trumpeting NLUD bells and how good their faculty are. Data revealed here doesn't support that.
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Like +12 Object -2 Guest 04 Jun 18, 20:36  interesting
Where exactly has NLUD overtaken NUJS exactly? Placements? That would be no. Faculty? There's no data that actually supports that. In fact, data revealed as per earlier comments say quite the opposite. NIRF ranking? Yeah, false data submission will do that to people. Proximity to SC and Parliament? Yeah, that it does. ILI trumps even NLUD there, by the way. Not that it actually makes any difference in the students' education.
The fact remains that since its inception, students and admin of NLUD have been aggressively marketing their institution like a private college as the next best thing to Harvard and while it's undoubtedly a good place to study in, in terms of real data, it has shown zilch so far that it has overtaken any of the 3 top tier NLUs in any way. No matter what other factors you show, it will have to be reflected in the student performance only to actually make a difference. If an institution has an amazing legal academic scholar but it still produces graduates indistinguishable from peer institutions, then either that scholar isn't contributing anything different to the education there, or the students there are simply dumber than elsewhere, which I don't believe.
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Like +5 Object -7 ShantiPar 10 Jun 18, 00:51  controversial
NUJS kids these days seem to be on overdrive mode to cry out their law school is #3, I guess due to well deserved concern that NLUD has overtaken them, if not last year than def. this year. Lots of fear and insecurity smell in the air. The joke is that if their claim that NUJS is best faculty, best infra, best placements is true than why were thy crying so much to the review commission members. LOLOLOL
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Like +6 Object -2 Guest 10 Jun 18, 08:25
The real joke is, NLUD students don't realise that if all their claims about having best faculty, best infra and best admin are indeed true, and despite that the students' performance output is not significantly ahead of all other NLUs even after 10 years, then that actually reflects on the poor quality of the students. That's actually simple logic, which AILET probably does not stress on much, instead focusing to bleed students dry greedily and illegally.
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Like +8 Object -0 Guest 04 Jun 18, 20:39  interesting
@Down to earth: The ranking wasn't made on the basis of any website, but Heinonline database. You are just angry it disproves your inflated opinion of NLUD having the 'best faculty in the country'. It's okay, reality hurts.
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Like +8 Object -0 Guest 04 Jun 18, 20:46  interesting
By the way, a lot of NLUD current faculty members have also publications in those 'bad' journals, as you claim. Seen their CV ever? Because I actually have, of at least 5. And if NLUD faculty are continuously publishing so many prestigious articles in superlative journals, why aren't those getting revealed in Hein searches? Don't tell me your faculty are trying to compensate for your admin's tall claims about placement salaries by underwriting their own publications? That would be tragic, now.
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Like +3 Object -2 Down to Earth 05 Jun 18, 00:30
I don't know if you are trolling or if you actually believe what you are saying. In just one move I will crush your argument. Just now I went to Hein and Westlaw and searched for your top scorer Prof Sandeepa Bhat.

Below are the results:

HEIN:

Foreign Journals:
- 2 in Journal of Space Law (of which 1 is co-authored with a student)
- 1 Proceedings of the International Institute of Space Law (also co-authored with a student)
- 1 in Annals of Air & Space Law
- 1 in Kathmandu School of Law Review (which is not prestigious)

Indian:
- 1 in NUJS Law Review (also co-authored with a student)

WESTLAW:

- No results

This raises two questions:

1. The score given was wrong. It is 20 from 4 international journals.
2. Looking at it qualitatively, your Prof Bhat has a senior rank and is your top scoring faculty in terms of publications. But are these publications that impressive?

Now, let me randomly compare with just 1 Assistant Prof (i.e. junior in rank) at NLUD, who is not even the top score for NLUD --- Prof Arul Scaria.

HEIN:
- 1 in NLUD law journal
- 1 in Michigan State University College of Law International Law Review
(all sole-authored)

WESTLAW:
- 1 in European IP Review
- 1 in in WIPO Law journal
- 1 in IIC (Max Planck Journal).
(all sole-authored)

The score is higher (25 form 5 international journals) but more importantly look at the quality of the journals here. Also, Prof Scaria has a PhD from Germany. And he is junior in rank to your top scorer,

So do not try and live in denial, my friend.

And you were debunking the JGLS profs, if you look at some of the profs web pages there are many publications listed. If you keep arguing I will look at NLUJ and GNLU and compare, so better not as you may get embarrassed.
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Like +1 Object -1 Sidharth Chauhan 09 Jun 18, 01:08
Well, this has been one of the most commented non-law firm stories that I have seen on Legally India. I hope that those who are offering their opinions here will also take out the time to read our report and discuss some of the issues that we have covered.
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Like +1 Object -2 Guest 09 Jun 18, 01:38
Sir, I think the reason this story got so many comments is that you touched a raw nerve by saying that faculty and placements determine a choice of law school. This means that CLAT preferences (made by teenage high school students) don't match up with the perceptions later, because NLSIU does NOT have the best faculty and placements. According to your study NALSAR or NLUD should be 1 in CLAT as they have better faculty. NALSAR also has better or at least equal placements to NLSIU (unlike NLUD) so your data means it is NALSAR that should be 1 overall, not NLSIU. NLSIU is just relying on past glory and media hype. So despite being an NLSIU alum it will be good if you can follow this up with another study proving that NLSIU has been overtaken by NALSAR, or at least both are equal. We need to change the herd mentality of school students during CLAT preferences.
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Like +0 Object -0 20.2 09 Jun 18, 10:02
For once we were having a meaningful discussion in the LI comments section. So sad that it turned into a pissing contest!
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Like +4 Object -0 20.2.1.1 09 Jun 18, 11:32
I agree. These days, law school students are so busy establishing their places as the king of the hill that few of them are in a position to examine, understand or do something positive about legal education in the country as a whole.
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Like +2 Object -5 Guest 09 Jun 18, 22:19
Abey khud ki tarif karna band karo....have u talked abt why more about two dozen faculty members have left ur so called great institution?? It's not a secret as to how NALSAR got the NAAC score that it got. Does ur report talk about the dynamic nature of the "Dynamic VC" of NALSAR, who's extremely dynamic in building his own profile at the cost of the institution, but is "Man Mohan Singh" in matters which are crucial for the prosperity of the institution?? Somebody who can't even set an exam paper properly (which the students had uploaded on social media) and who's rejected by the 1st year students in the class (as only about 10% students come to his class willingly) is the main author of ur report. Does ur report talk abt it?? Is liye ye khud-khushi band karo aur chamchagiri chhod ke kuchh dhang ka Karne ka koshish karo life mein.
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Like +3 Object -0 Sidharth Chauhan 11 Jun 18, 00:44
Judging by the tenor of your comment, it is not clear whether you have actually read our report so far. Out of the points made by you, there is one criticism (about the poorly framed question paper) which is true. The others are highly exaggerated and border on spreading falsehoods. Since you have the freedom to make such accusations on a public forum, I have the freedom to point out errors in your comment.

How did you arrive at the number of 24 teachers having left NALSAR? In the last five years, there have been only 3 permanent teachers who have left for better opportunities elsewhere. Prof. Madhabhushi Sridhar left in November 2013 to serve as one of the Chief Information Commissioners. Prof. Vijender Kumar has been on lien since October 2014 to serve as a Vice-Chancellor, initially at NLU Assam and now at MNLU Nagpur. Most recently, Prof. V.C. Vivekanandan has taken lien in order to serve as the Dean of the Law School at Bennett University. All of the others who have left were either in ad-hoc positions or serving their probation periods. Some were asked to leave because of consistently poor feedback by students. There are of course some individuals who are good teachers and have left to pursue better-paid jobs at other institutions or in order to pursue higher studies. Everyone at NALSAR will accept that we need to do more to attract and retain teaching talent. We have in fact addressed this problem in Section 3.3 of our report.

What is your grievance with the NAAC rating obtained by NALSAR? The inspection committee consisting of 6 external members had visited the institution in March 2016. The score of 3.60 reflects an average of the scores given by them. All the procedural requirements of submitting a self-assessment report and organising the interactions with the inspection committee were complied with. If there is indeed an irregularity committed by anyone, why don't you bring it in the public domain or at least file a complaint with the Chancellor of the University?

As for the present Vice-Chancellor's public profile, can you give any specific examples to show how he has enhanced his own profile in a manner that is detrimental to the University? In the last few years, he has written a large number of opinion pieces in newspapers, delivered public lectures, appeared on public television (mostly on NDTV India which is a Hindi News Channel) and produced accessible recorded talks on legal subjects for a lay audience. These activities have in fact greatly improved the visibility of the institution. I will accept the criticism that we have performed relatively poorly when it comes to generating research output (articles in peer-reviewed journals and externally sponsored projects) but that can hardly be attributed to the Vice-Chancellor alone.

Lastly, your claim about us being 'chamchas' is perhaps one of the best jokes that I have heard in the last decade. Why don't you come and spend a few days at our campus and observe our behaviour to decide whether we are resorting to 'chamchagiri'? Perhaps you should begin with a google search about my previous employment history.

If you want to resort to further falsehoods, I will keep rebutting you.
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Like +16 Object -11 Lassi 10 Jun 18, 13:23  interesting  controversial
Few years back when India Today ranked WBNUJS as No. 6 or 7 the students made a big tamasha about what a shit ranking it was, what vested interest, bad data, blah blah. Now suddenly India Today has become a shining light for them.

LOL The hypocrisy.
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Like +12 Object -15 NUJS student 10 Jun 18, 14:05  controversial
@Lassi: Unlike the students and admin of certain NLUs and private colleges, who go to the extent of supplying false data for ranking or make false claims before the media, students of NUJS do not need to beat their own drums regarding any of these faulty and useless rankings, regardless of where they place NUJS. Students believe their and alumni's performance in the real world speaks for that. We don't need validation from either other students or the teachers of other NLUs to show the merit of our institution, thank you very much. :)
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Like +16 Object -11 Lassi 10 Jun 18, 19:33  interesting  controversial
@37.1 You have coolly not replied to my point. How come WBNUJS students were [...] when India Today and Outlook ranked them so low in the past. They boycotted, threatened and abused these magazines.

www.legallyindia.com/201106192170/Law-schools/nujs-boycotts-outlook-law-school-rankings-nlu-j-butts-back-in/amp

www.legallyindia.com/201008201213/Law-schools/nujs-ers-threaten-outlook-a-india-today-law-school-rankings-with-press-council-complaint

Now suddenly the magazines have become god because in like 15 years of rankings they put WBNUJS at no. 2 once???? What is your answer eh????

[...]
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Like +10 Object -10 NUJS student 10 Jun 18, 20:38  controversial
@Lassi: Clearly, your mastery of words reveals the depth of your education and taste. I will not, however, stoop to your level. To answer the only point you made, you seem to be the only one who's highlighting magazine rankings here. Neither I nor any of my fellow students at NUJS have ever sought to make any fanfare about them. The reason being, as stated earlier, we simply do not care about them. As for the rest of the vitriol you spewed, that unfortunately reflects more about the institution that you received your education from, rather than reflecting the state of affairs in mine, regarding which you appear to have little or no clue whatsoever. Thank you. :)
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Like +8 Object -9 Lassi 11 Jun 18, 18:04  controversial
@NUJS Student. Sweety, Good job avoiding replying to me. You have been shut up because your hypocrisy has been exposed and you have nothing to say. Obviously you have to accept that WBNUJS students went on a rampage in 2010 and 2011 over this so-called "dont care" rankings by India Today and Outlook. Obviously you have to accept that right now the same WBNUJS students are trying to make the most of the rankings because it shows their college as No.2. LOL Is this vitriol or hypocrisy ??? Its a well known fact that the same students "kicked" the VC out to quote their own words. So its very fair to say that they have learned Mamta's tactics.
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Like +8 Object -8 Guest 11 Jun 18, 18:30  controversial
@Lassi: You have been writing the same thing over and over again without a shred of evidence to support it. Any proof at all that NUJS or NUJS students have been trying 'to make the most of Outlook/India Today' ranking? So far you have given none apart from the product of your fertile mind. Give it a rest, pal. Let the only green-eyed monster that bothers you be the Hulk. Aren't enough good students coming your way unless and until you throw mud on other NLUs? Too bad and too sad (your life, clearly).
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Like +8 Object -7 NUJS Alunmnus 11 Jun 18, 19:06  controversial
@Lassi: I would have spoken about this very slowly, had this been a face-to-face talk, since you appear to be somewhat challenged in the cerebral sector. Fairly certain you and logic have parted ways a long time back and don't even send each other Diwali/Eid/Christmas greetings, so probably wouldn't have worked even then.

1. 'NUJS students going on rampage in 2010-2011': Yes, students did protest against an inane system of ranking by those rankings (which were the first of their kind at that time) because it made no sense whatsoever and had no transparent parameter. You seem to be a law student now (at least I dearly hope for others' sake you are actually not dispensing legal advice to some poor chap somewhere), so you can't possibly remember this, but most of the NLU community had actually supported this at that point of time. I know they did, because I was part of the group challenging the magazines. We took the initiative, because someone had to. Usually law students are better placed to do that.

Subsequently, it was quite clear to the legal community in general that the magazines and their rankings were a joke, and we stopped there, satisfied because the objectives were achieved. These days, there are plenty of rankings available around every street corner (though almost none of them contain sufficient scientific basis or even fact-checking, it's still a free country, so we have stopped complaining; so have our juniors I presume). Or do you think it is a coincidence that since 2010-11, despite Outlook and India Today having these idiotic rankings every year, there had been no organised protest since? Of course you avoided mentioning that nugget, selective as your choice of facts is.

2. "the same WBNUJS students are trying to make the most of the rankings because it shows their college as No.2" - I can't believe that I am gracing this stupid claim and blatant lie with even a response, but WHERE? NUJS students have nowhere championed either of the rankings. The answer has been given by a commentator (probably an existing student) above. The students have now realised going after inane rankings is a waste of resources and effort, the legal community actually has better sense to recognise sNUJS students' achievements for what they are and rightly consider the place where they flock to every year for recruitment.

3. "Its a well known fact that the same students "kicked" the VC out" - The students have protested against an incompetent and possibly corrupt (I wouldn't know the latter, never having studied under him, but the former, yes) administrator and removed him after following every other usual channel of protest. I happen to approve that as an alumnus. It's called standing up for themselves and not allowing injustice to happen, you know, something that is actually taught in law schools. You should try that sometime. Though I believe you and your kind, who are only content with anonymously slinging mud at others without having had any achievement of your own, would be at all equipped to actually do something like that. You lack the courage, the sense of justice and above all, the spine, ability and taste. (Kian, if this appears to be ad hominem and you don't publish it, then you should stop publishing these anonymous mud-slinging too).

p.s. In case you are an alumnus of any law school (Heaven forbid), then you may, just may know, that NUJS students achieved a record recruitment (several other NLUs' figures combined) right after they did take such a stand. Clearly, the people who actually matter in the real world, have an opinion of the institution and its students that is way better than you do. Even if you are a law student whose sole source of information about other NLUs is fora like LI, you may still have heard about that. Given that, any sensible person would know whom to believe (spoiler alert, it is not you). So, better scurry away and try to do something worthwhile for your own institution, rather than spending all your time maligning others.

Is that answer enough for you?
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Like +11 Object -11 Sider 11 Jun 18, 08:05  controversial
Quote:
Looks like Mamta Bannerjee takes a few seminar courses:) I will not be surprised if these tactics are used inside WBNUJS also by students v students, students v teachers and teachers v teachers.
So true. There are complaints filed by faculty against other faculty, EC is investigating other faculty, C is investigating former VC, students have filed murder cases against others and failed students have filed court cases in a desperate attempt to somehow pass. The college is practically Beliaghata Law College and the transformation will be complete once the new VC joins.
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Like +10 Object -7 Noojie 2 11 Jun 18, 17:44  controversial
Still the students end up doing exceptionally well in every sphere, as is evident from the obvious jealousy of commentators here. Keep the love coming, folks! We thrive with your compliments. :) And we won't say bad things about your university either, even when they are true. Because we honestly believe law students should stick together and help each other, since they actually end up working together.
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Like +9 Object -7 Guest 11 Jun 18, 19:10  controversial
@Sider: We will still invite you for our recruitment after-party and Harvard/Oxbridge convocations and other important affairs that matter in the world. Aana mat bhoolna! *hugs and kisses*
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Like +0 Object -0 Peacemaker 10 Jun 18, 19:11
This debate will go on an on. Kian, please settle the debate and do a ranking of NLU faculty. The comments on your site have a lot of fake data and are misleading law aspirants.
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 11 Jun 18, 02:11
Wee need to follow the NIRF ranking but with correct data. If LI can do a detailed placement ranking and faculty ranking, then together along with MPL these can be submitted to NIRF.
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Like +1 Object -7 Guest 11 Jun 18, 03:39
Sharing a excerpts of a shocking post about NLIU Bhopal on Quora. The media should look into this so that CLAT aspirants are made aware.

www.quora.com/Is-it-worth-dropping-a-year-to-prepare-for-the-CLAT

Quote:
I am a final year student of National Law Institute University, Bhopal. It is my humble request to you to read my entire post before thinking about taking admission in NLIU Bhopal.
Quote:
The recent placements can show that we are lagging behind even new NLUs
Quote:
There is a deliberate policy of failing students so that they are forced to pay bribes to the university administration.
Quote:
Recently my batch mate lost his mother and directly abused him saying that he is from a poor family who deserves to be debarred. However, kids of politicians and senior officers are able to influence the administration even if their children are way below 70%.
Quote:
There is another faculty who is very old and short-tempered. He always threatens to fail certain students and make good of that threat. Because of these intimidation tactics, three students have committed suicide in last five years.
Quote:
The canteen is non-existent and only offers cold drinks and packet of biscuits. There is no other alternative as the campus in located in forest area far away from the city. Even buses and transport facilities are not available. Few autos are there who charge around Rs 400-500 for one trip and even misbehave with students.
Quote:
There was a case few years back where a female recruiter was harassed by a faculty member. The placements are going down as compared to other NLUs.
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39.1
Like +14 Object -1 Concerned Reader 11 Jun 18, 19:30  interesting  top rated
@Kian: Have you ever considered that at least part of the law school community and law firm community having a dislike for you, stems less from the actual reports you publish and more because of the completely baseless, false, misleading and anonymous garbage you allow in the comments? Free speech is fine, but I doubt the framers of the Constitution envisaged anonymity to be covered under that and they also required some facts to be said, not wild, inaccurate comments without any supporting evidence whatsoever! You say you protect individuals as much as you can from this, but I don't see where you get off saying institutions deserve to be treated otherwise. For sure, if you get any fact, publish it after verifying it, but a lot of the comments in this very post (some attacking even individuals like Prof. Chauhan and his group) had zero facts and just venom in them. You seem to consider them as 'just trolling' and allow those, but taking that kind of call is not your prerogative either without accepting the responsibility for it. Each of the last few law school related posts has seen obvious outsiders writing completely rubbish about about one or other NLU, which have little or no connection with the posts at all, and those comments still get allowed! And I won't even start on law firm-related posts! While that is more understandable (though still inappropriate) in forums where comments get posted directly without moderation, in your case, it doesn't. By allowing them, you are doing your own bit to spread misinformation and even fake news, because like it or not, a lot of people do read these comments and some even get influenced by them. I repeat, if you have verifiable facts, publish them by all means. But in the absence of that, publishing these wild accusations is neither legal, nor ethical, nor in good taste. There are a lot of things I personally like with LI (and have done for the past 6-7 years), but this is not one of them. I am sure a lot of sensible readers will agree with me too. If this continues, I will probably stop visiting this place, and while I not being a subscribed reader, that may not have any impact on your revenue stream as such, I am still hoping you take a moment to consider why readers can be feeling like this.
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Like +1 Object -6 Guest 12 Jun 18, 02:40
It is taken from Quora. I am merely reproducing it from Quora.
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Like +0 Object -0 Concerned Reader 12 Jun 18, 18:39
@39, 39.1.1: My apologies if it seemed my remark was specifically intended at your comment only. I wished to post it as a separate one and not as a reply to yours.
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39.1.1.2
Like +6 Object -0 Guest 12 Jun 18, 18:59  interesting
It doesn't matter where you have taken it from. Unless and until you have actually verified it, or given Kian a tip to do so, what you have done is doing your bit spreading and propagating libel (anonymously, of course). Which is shameful.
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Like +9 Object -6 Expert Analyst 12 Jun 18, 03:16  controversial
90% of the comments here are just rubbish. I am an experienced analyst of legal education and placements. Rest assured that the correct ranking is as follows, over a 5 year period:

PLACEMENTS:

1. NLSIU
2.NALSAR
3.NUJS
4. NLUD
5. GNLU

FACULTY:

1. JGLS
2. NALSAR
3. NLUD
4. NLSIU
5. NUJS

MOOTS:

1. NLSIU
2. NALSAR
3. NUJS
4. NLUD
5. GNLU

CAMPUS INFRASTRUCTURE:

1. JGLS
2. NALSAR
3. NLUD
4. GNLU
5. NLUJ

BEST CITY LOCATION:

1. MNLU
2. NLUD
3. NLSIU
4. NALSAR
5. NUJS

CAMPUS NEIGHBOURHOOD AND SURROUNDINGS:

1. NUJS
2. NLUD
3. NALSAR
4. NLSIU
5. GNLU

Now, different people have different priorities in choosing a law school. For some, city location is the most important. For some, placements. For some, faculty. No law school offers everything. If NLSIU has good placements and reputation, the infrastructure and faculty quality are not the best. It is also not in the best location within Bengaluru. On the other hand, although Kolkata is not as good a city as Delhi or Bengaluru, NUJS is in a nice central location compared to Dwarka and Nagarbhavi, with better access to modern city luxuries. But the campus is tiny. My own top preference is NALSAR. think it's the best overall and will eventually overtake NLSIU. For CLAT aspirants, I advise them make this their overall preference: NALSAR>NLSIU>NUJS>NLUD>GN LU>NLUJ>NLIU>JGLS>MNLU Mumbai>NUALS>RMLNLU>RGNUL >NLUO>HNLU>MNLU Nagpur>DSNLU>MNLU Aurangabad>TN NLS>HPNLU>CNLU>NLU Assam>NLU Ranchi.
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Like +8 Object -7 Guest 12 Jun 18, 18:55  controversial
Expert analyst my ass! You haven't even got your records straight. Over the last 5 years, NUJS has consistently been better or equal to NLSIU or NALSAR in terms of placements. Anybody who actually knows the stats knows that. Also, how does NALSAR have a better city location than NUJS? Law firms in Telengana/AP recruiting loads of NLU students and hosting multiple legal events that nobody knows? At least Kolkata (while much behind Mumbai and Delhi in that metric), has the presence of several top recruiters like KCO, SAM, ITC etc.
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Like +1 Object -0 Reporter 13 Jun 18, 20:20
Broadly I agree but MNLU, Mumbai and NUALS, Kochi are slightly lower on the ladder. My comments are mainly to guide the fresh aspirants.
@ Expert Analyst, please review and revise the preferences.
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 13 Jun 18, 23:56
I think most people choose Patiala and Lucknow over Mumbai and Kochi, but Kochi's image has improved after it got a Rhodes scholar, while Mumbai's locational advantage is making it high in CLAT preferences and it is likely to be the next NLUD in the long run.

But getting back to the paper by Prof Chauhan and the original topic, if NLU students feel that faculty quality and placements are most important, then NLSIU is being overrated by CLAT aspirants.
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Like +4 Object -6 MLB 14 Jun 18, 00:12
The commenters here have a very short term view. It doesn't matter if one law school got 6 CAM placements and another got 3. In the next 10 years, there will be 10 times as much competition between NLUs as there is now. In these circumstances, factors like faculty quality, funding and infrastructure will play an increasingly important role. This was also pointed out in the Harvard study on the Indian legal market. As the legal market becomes more sophisticated and foreign law firms come in, they will look at the quality of training provided in law schools and the foreign firms will fund chairs and enter into tie ups with law schools, as they do abroad. If some NLUs offer good students but bad faculty and infra, many foreign firms will get turned off and prefer to work with other NLUs.

If you feel complacent about bad faculty and infra as long as the placements are strong, It's a ticking time bomb that you can ignore at your own risk.
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40.1
Like +9 Object -0 Guest 14 Jun 18, 09:46  interesting
The thing is, how exactly do you determine good faculty? I am yet to come across any NLU where at least majority of students if not the whole, are satisfied with the quality of teaching they receive in classrooms. That includes even those NLUs where the faculty profiles are generally more impressive in terms of publications or qualifications. Not sure why that is the case though. Maybe we just don't have enough good law teachers in the country.
Maybe the few we have are mostly geared towards subjects which maaby students don't find that useful from career perspective. A matter to think about.

As for infrastructure, this is actually a very wide term. Includes a lot of things, ranging from necessities to luxuries. A lot of NLU students these days post-CLAT come from very affluent families, to whom a lot of luxurious things may just seem to be the bare minimum requirement. That doesn't make those essential for legal education. AC hostels, for example. Not saying they are bad, but one can easily do without them in course of 5 years in law school.
A hygienic campus, a good library with access to latest databases, a good lecture hall and bright, sincere students make a decent combination. All top tier NLUs started with that or less and produced excellent graduates. So while some form of basic infra is of course needed, I think we place too much stress on that these days for legal education. Had it been a science course, then a good lab and equipments could have been added perhaps. Maybe I've got too old to think otherwise, since my law school education is amidst a decade old by now. Others may differ.
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Like +8 Object -10 Dainik 14 Jun 18, 12:23  controversial
Very true that. NUJS exemplifies that attitude where the current placements may be good but is the function of 20 years of law school building. In contrast I do see NLSIU students having the wisdom to get it that placements of 2030 will be influenced by 2020. In ten years the IITs, private universities and even newer NLUs will all be competing and employers will be spoilt for choice. At the moment NLSIU BALLB graduates are deliberately out of the rat race job market (which is slugged out between NLUD and NUJS). Most of the NUJS-origin comments here reek of a blind faith in placements continuing despite the very apparent decline in standards there. Thats not healthy and theres no reason why placements will continue so. Only a fool will make such a assumption.
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Like +8 Object -6 Guest 14 Jun 18, 14:07  controversial
How exactly is NLSIU or for that matter, NALSAR, out of the rat race in the job market? Aren't they holding Day Zero and interning at law firms and doing everything exactly the same as NUJS or NLUD when it comes to placement? Albeit with varying results. Your comments about the relative wisdom of NLSIU students is quite vague. What is it that they have been doing to ensure future glory or whatever? They are having their own faculty crisis like most other NLUs, their admin is nothing to write home about either. Only the strength of the unchanged rules from the Menon era and the fact that the brightest of students every year chooses that place continues to give them their edge, coupled with the strongest alumni base.

As for NUJS students, people look at placements because that's the most obvious and readily visible metric. Why don't you cite some other metric like higher studies, scholarships, moots, entrepreneurship to show this 'obvious decline' that you speak of (relative to all other NLUs, that is, because I personally find an average NLU grad these days not as reliable as an average NLU grad 10 years ago anyway for all law schools)? Because you would find students doing quite well in all those fields too, just that the university doesn't do a fan fare about that specifically like some places do.

If anything, the fact that a lot of people here are of the opinion that NUJS faculty and infra and everything else are absolutely sub standard (a claim that I don't agree with) and still their graduates are doing just as well as those of NLSIU, NALSAR or anyplace else, should actually mean they are better, shouldn't it? That is if the claims of all those other NLUs of having everything better than NUJS is true, which I don't believe it is.
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Like +10 Object -8 Dainik 14 Jun 18, 17:39  controversial
I graduated from NLSIU and these law firm jobs are not really anything that get people excited there anymore. Most of the top students look at research, policy, alternative careers, academia, litigation and even gap years. Law school has cemented its place and theres a symbiosis between faculty and students even if they dont like each other. Theres supreme confidence in the ability to get a law firm offer whenever whatever. Thats why there are barely any takers for law firm jobs at law school. NALSAR is getting there, I guess in 5 years. NLUD is getting there at a faster pace but are a bit behind so maybe 10 years.

TBH only at NUJS is there so much excitement about these associate jobs. And anyways even these jobs come because of the excellent impression made by the alumni of the first few batches and the good work done by Menon, Chimni and MPS and their students in supporting each other. That wont last long not only because current graduates are getting more immature, lazy and undisciplined but also because competition among law schools is shooting up and nobody will take the risk of hiring from a place where there has been ugly turmoil for months. I know that my last firm has decided to reduce their intake from NUJS and even the NUJS partners (2005, 2006 and 2007 batch) at my current office are not happy at the goings-on.

I follow the NUJS events because my spouse is from there. It's pretty ugly at the moment, students and faculty are as bad as each other and without going into who is right or wrong I would just prefer to avoid recruitment there entirely.
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Like +8 Object -6 Guest 14 Jun 18, 18:56  controversial
Barely any takers for those law firm jobs? The sheer ignorance in your comments is apparent from the fact despite being alumnus, you have lost touch about the happenings at your alma mater. As per released reports, 46 out of a batch of 76 at NLSIU this year have taken such jobs (www.legallyindia.com/lawschools/nls-after-day-zero-46-jobs-in-bag-already-out-of-76-grads-for-2019-trilegal-sam-cam-luthra-khaitan-biggest-recruiters-00011130-9287). Why don't you provide some concrete statistics about how all the top students at NLSIU (at least top 10, so around 50) in the past 5 years have opted for everything else other than law firm jobs, rather than relying upon your questionable gut feeling and experience? Of course some do, nobody is doubting that, but to consider every other alternative to law firms as something 'glorious' is a stupid assumption. It completely disregards the economic factor, for one. A whole lot of NUJS grads, for instance, have been known to opted for law firm jobs to take care of initial financial problems and then shifted to other lines of work subsequently. If a student can afford to do so straight out of law school (and the luxurious 'gap year'), it means above anything else that they are financially sound, not simply extra brilliant with a cherry on top. And so far, statistics does not show ANY NLU students to be overwhelmingly (even majority) opt out of placements.

As for these 'associate jobs' as you so disdainfully put it, you yourself are still doing one admittedly, so they cannot be that bad surely as you paint them out to be? There are so many contradictory statements you made that it is difficult to decide where to begin. Let's see, according to you, the first few batches produced amazing students (which they did, I'm not questioning that part), who went on to become successful in their lives (in these so-called second-class law firm jobs, as you feel), who despite being unhappy with students of NUJS (again, only your word for it), continue to take (and here comes the cinch) INCREASING number of students every year from NUJS. Why, exactly? The biggest number of intake (this year) was right after all those turmoil as you speak of it. Are you saying that NUJS alumni are very intelligent, but still continue to hire increasing number of sub-standard juniors to work for them every year simply because they are from the alma mater? Are they running law firms or charitable institutions? They can't be intelligent and stupid at the same time, right? Do make up your mind.

As for declining standard of average law graduates from NLU, I happen to agree with you. But newsflash, it is true for EVERY NLU, including your beloved NLSIU. So while your sense of pride in your alma mater is quite understandable, it comes off as hypocritical given your misplaced wrath at students from another law school about which most of your knowledge comes from Legally India or the like (in fact, some would say it is the very typical supercilious, holier-than-thou attitude that a lot of NLSIU grads and other NLU grads too are criticised for at workplace and elsewhere). You wouldn't prefer to recruit from NUJS anymore? Given all the firms even this year obviously felt otherwise, it is a good thing you are not the one who makes recruitment decisions at your workplace then.
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Like +6 Object -7 Dainik 14 Jun 18, 19:55  controversial
Hmmm placement numbers do not show how many actually start work on those offers 18 months later. Very few from law school do. You can easily ask around and see there will be not more than one or two at most working at the top firms (my firm had nobody from law school join from the offers and one kid left after 4 months to litigate). It's because NLS (slowly NALSAR) is moving beyond law firms that NUJS gets the offers. I joined a law firm a decade ago when that was still a big deal (I've done well so stuck here now!). Btw gap year is not a party time, they work at NGOs, schools for children with special needs, lok sabha members, government schemes. Its as paying as litigation in initial years.

Recruitment decisions are collectively made and everyone has a quota. From next year the NUJS quota will be reduced. I (and others) find these forums reveal a lot about the current crop of students. Provocative posts on law school or NALSAR hardly generate any kneejerk pompous replies like the NUJS ones do which I'm guessing is because NLS/NALSAR are pretty secure or decent. Even NLUD students have tremendous confidence in their faculty and that's why more and more firms are liking them. Students who piss on their own admin and faculty today will do so on their bosses and colleagues tomorrow so they are better avoided and if the stories of them filing murder cases against each other and against the admin are true then they are a risk to anyone who hires them.
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Like +8 Object -6 Guest 14 Jun 18, 19:02  controversial
You like to pretend NLSIU students do not care about law firm placements without having any idea about the reality. The number of students who opt for Day Zero and firm internships from there says otherwise. Law firm jobs are definitely not the be-all and end-all, but those who consider such jobs to be the dregs of career opportunities and keep bashing them as such are mostly those with sour grape syndrome. It is a job like any others. Some like it, others don't. And the fact remains that it is still an extremely demanding position to get into (regardless of the work one does once in) and most of what a student learns during law school days are indeed tested in course of internships and recruitment.
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Like +7 Object -7 Guest 14 Jun 18, 21:07  controversial
This is very true . NLSIU has a "meh" attitude towards law firms, except UK training contracts (which are highly coveted). Otherwise, even a student interested in corporate law would rather do an LLM in the US and join a law firm there, than join the likes of CAM and SAM. An Indian law firm job gives very little intellectual stimulation or work satisfaction for the brightest and most ambitious minds. Then, the numbers interested in research and academics are getting bigger and bigger. These students also pursue LLMs. But having said that, over the years an IIT Kota coaching class culture has crept into all law schools. The demographics are changing from big city English-speaking brats to middle-class Hindi belt wallahs. Thus, those who are too cool to work at CAM and SAM are shrinking in numbers..

And I am not from NLSIU but someone in the know .
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Like +7 Object -8 Dainik 14 Jun 18, 23:08  controversial
Absolutely! At law school and NALSAR getting into a CAM or Trilegal is not really news. Job offers from firms like LL are embarrassing. I've never seen so much celebration over these "achievements" today except at NUJS which shows a huge difference in attitude and maturity. By current standards there's a clear Tier 1 consisting of NLS and NALSAR, a tier 2 consisting of NLUD, NUJS, NLIU and NLUJ) and a Tier 3 of the rest. NLUD is on track to be in Tier 1 in about 3-4 years at most and the students there deserve it. They've taken a huge bet on their young university, stuck to a strongman and a bit unpopular VC knowing that making a fuss would affect their future the most. Moreover academic standards at NLUD and NALSAR are as rigorous as law school compared to the rampant plagiarism and cheating at NUJS and NLIU. NLS, NLUD and NALSAR all have excellent financial support compared to NUJS. Lastly NLSIU, NLUD and NALSAR actually attract good faculty while at NUJS good faculty actually end up leaving.
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Like +4 Object -5 Third Umpire 15 Jun 18, 10:59
These are excellent points being made. For an NLSIU or NALSAR kid, a Magic Circle offer is the top choice. After that, an LLM offer (even outside US and UK) is more desirable than an Indian law firm job. Even research/policy/litigatio n careers are more interesting for them. You would think this would be more prevalent in NUJS, as Bengal had traditionally been a left-leaning state and Bengalis have a high presence in academics. Furthermore, the first 3 VCs of NUJS were solid academicians with socialist leanings. But this phenomenon has not happened beyond the first few batches. As an example, top NUJS grads from early batches are teaching overseas. In India, the faculty of JGLS is dominated by people from earlier NUJS batches, including the topper of the very first batch and some other star talents. Then, there are people doing very interesting work in litigation, policy etc. But the present batches do not have such a mindset. In my view, the reason is that professors have a big impact and inspire students. At NLSIU and NALSAR, there have been good public law professors who have encouraged students to look at non-corporate options. At NUJS this was the case earlier, but under Ishwara Bhat a huge faculty exodus happened. Students had nothing to look forward to other than going for law firm jobs.
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Like +5 Object -4 Guest 15 Jun 18, 14:55
Who told you people exactly that students from NUJS don't aspire for foreign firm jobs, exactly? Apart from everything else, the sheer pay scale difference (coupled with more attractive work life balance) alone makes those jobs the most aspired for. However, neither NLSIU, nor NALSAR, nor NUJS manages to send more than 4-5 students to those foreign firms. This propaganda that is being spread here makes it seem every alternate student at NLSIU or NALSAR is enjoying a magic circle position! No NLU is sadly good enough to do that at present. Just like most of the top 40 students at NLSIU/NALSAR are opting for law firm jobs (see Day Zero results, number of working A0s, A1s at various firms), so are those of NUJS. You people are giving exactly zero data to support your claims so far.

And a large number of students from NUJS every year do take up non law-firm jobs, research positions, clerkships, policy work too every year. In fact, there are students who have already come up with mediation platforms and nation-wide initiatives supported by the Ministry of Justice (in their 3rd Year). Take the foremost policy research organisations like Vidhi etc. where at least 30% of people working are from various NUJS batches (including people as young as from 2016 batch). What about you (who possibly belong to NLSIU or NALSAR or any other law school) actually do the research first before arriving at your ill-founded conclusions, since you seem to be valuing research so highly as a career? Make claims, but support them with actual data, otherwise don't mislead people.
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Like +5 Object -3 Hawkeye 15 Jun 18, 15:07
@Third Umpire: Care to tell me how many students of, say, NALSAR from the batch that graduated in 2017 are working at foreign firms or doing their LLMs (fully funded with scholarships) abroad now? I am willing to bet with you that the number stays between 10 and 15. What's the total student strength again? Over 100, isn't it? Mindset does not count for much if it is not supported by ability. Same goes for all the other law schools too. Everybody knows Magic Circle jobs are the most coveted of all irrespective of the law school name. The point is, what's the percentage of graduates who actually end up getting it? It has never exceeded 10% of the batch of any law school ever (may be one occasional outlier for smaller batch size, though I doubt). So the rest of the 90% and their choices don't count for anything at all, do they, when you consider the overall performance of the institution? Typical elitist mentality.
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Like +6 Object -2 Guest 15 Jun 18, 11:41
Considering NLSIU hasn't attracted any faculty (good or bad) in ages, that's a tall claim indeed. Since 2008, there has not been any permanent recruitment to that place. If anything, the examples like Sid Chauhan has clearly shown that unless you are a Yes Man to the VC there, you don't have any place regardless of your abilities. They tried to hold a recruitment sometime back, but squabbles about the VC trying to get his cronies in stiffed it in the end. So there goes your one claim.

As for those "embarrassing" or "no big deal" offers, care to tell me why students at NLSIU or NALSAR keep on taking them? You have produced zero stats to show they don't. Or are you saying all the A0s, A1s of all top-tier firms consist of students other than from NLSIU or NALSAR? That's a laugh! Foreign firms may be all that NLISU students dream about, but the sad truth is, not more than 5-6 people end up actually getting those every year. The rest simply don't cut it, as snooty as they may behave as their purported alumni (like you) do. This is just an effort on your part to stay relevant. As usual, you keep blustering about the grandness of NLSIU without any statistics to back up your claim.

As for declining academic standards in other law schools, care to show ANY PROOF of that? And how would you know, anyway? Or don't tell me your 'hubby', whom you claim as an alumnus of NUJS, still continues studying there? Plagiarism and cheating, again, how would you know? Let me tell you an open secret. It is RAMPANT in every NLU now, from NLSIU to NLUJAA or whichever is the latest one. There are actually notes on how to beat plagiarism detection software that students of all law schools circulate among each other. Either show some proof, or stop defaming others and go back to your make-believe ivory tower. All your comments have shown so far is your antipathy towards one law school, nothing else. To the extent you keep on making unfounded accusations under anonymity. If you are that confident about your defamatory claims, why not shed the garb of anonymity?

The actual point remains this: WHATEVER performance any NLU is boasting of right now, regardless of the field, it is solely because the brightest students of law every year are joining there. Nothing else. None of the NLUs actually makes any discernible difference in the legal education of these kids (barring providing a good peer group), much as they claim to do otherwise. Alumni do, yes, during internships and recruitment (for all established NLUs), but not the actual education part. All the claim of any NLU being a doyen of legal education would fall flat if on one year, students having 30000
CLAT rank onward join there. That was the scene 10 years back, that is the scene now. Barring a few good teachers, the state of Indian legal academia when it comes to classroom teaching is in the doldrums now. Even those who sport a grand CV or qualifications are seldom actually making any difference in terms of their contributions to the students' learning. State funding does make a difference, I won't deny it. However, as JGLS shows, simply by paying teachers a lot of money, you cannot hope to achieve much unless you get excellent students. This is all a tragic and sick game of gutted institutions calling themselves 'king-of-the-hill', where in reality, when compared to global institutions (or even the top Asian ones), none of the Indian law schools deserves a single mention as on date. And one of the reasons beings that the alumni, instead of making cogent contributions to their own alma mater, are busy spewing venom against other law schools and basking in self-proclaimed artificial aggrandisement anonymously on fora like this. So, happy dreaming!
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Like +6 Object -1 Guest 15 Jun 18, 11:53  interesting
@Dainik: Any idea about the average number of students NLSIU and NALSAR have been sending to foreign firms every year since the last 5 years? Since you are saying the students here only care about these places and consider all Indian firms to be err... beneath their station, so to speak? Should be at least half of the students who opt for recruitment, right? And here I thought the average is max 5, silly me!
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Like +9 Object -3 Guest 14 Jun 18, 14:12  interesting
You mean to say what 7 graduating batches of NUJS graduates did, the last 8 graduating batches (assuming Bhat's administration to be the point where things started going downhill) have been leveraging that to actually provide increasingly better results (at least in the fields where they are actually tested)? Sorry, that doesn't wash at all. By that logic, both the two other older prominent NLUs are liable of the same.
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Like +5 Object -7 Dainik 14 Jun 18, 19:14  controversial
First five batches of NUJS were by and large better and more successful than first five NALSAR or NLIU batches. It took about ten years to prove that though (results became apparent only from 2015 when nearly the entire batches of 2005 and 2006 were made partner). That has translated to more opportunities for later batches but after a point mileage of the past wont work. This is only about law firms. In alternate careers NLS and NALSAR and even NLUD are ahead and more well rounded. All law schools have had instances of bad VCs, bad faculty, bad infrastructure or a bad student body but its only NUJS which looks like it has all these evils at the same time.
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Like +3 Object -3 Guest 16 Jun 18, 20:24
Do you even know how many students of NUJS actually opt for non-law firm positions and career every year? If so, pray tell how do you know that? Because that is not covered on a Day Zero-related news, which usually gets all the media mileage. Nor does it get highlighted from the university's side in any other way. Only students themselves (and maybe some teachers who keep themselves informed) know about those details. It would be interesting to know how you arrived at your conclusion other than by simply throwing your opinion out there. Institutes like NLUD actually name each of their students cracking the Civils and congratulate them in public (which is a good move). While NUJS has never done that, it actually doesn't mean students from here aren't cracking it every year! So, what you can say at the most is that non-law firm jobs aren't being publicised at NUJS as the law firm jobs are. Not that they aren't actually happening.

If anything, I doubt you can give me the stats of exactly how many students from NLSIU, NALSAR, NUJS and NLUD graduating in 2017 opted for law firm jobs and how many took up other careers, which is the bare minimum for making the comments you have been making. In fact, in all your comments, there has been a marked absence of any form of statistics whatsoever, apart from random, inaccurate claims (like NLSIU attracts best faculty, where everybody knows it hasn't recruited any in the last decade). Without that, your opinion is not even an informed one, let alone accurate.
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Like +6 Object -5 Guest 14 Jun 18, 21:18  controversial
Trust me, the glory days for the older NLUs will get over in future, because money, funding and state government support will make the difference. This will be the ranking of the future:

1. NLUD
2. MNLU
3. NLSIU
4. NALSAR
5. NUJS
6. JGLS
7. GNLU
8. DSNLU (if Chandrababu Naidu backs it like he backed NALSAR)
9. NLUJ
10. NLIU

You may laugh, but that is the attitude people once had when told IIM Ahmedabad would overtake Bangalore and Calcutta, or ISB would overtake IIM Lucknow, Indore and Kozhikode, or BITS Pilani would rival IIT, or IIT Delhi/Bombay would overtake Kharagpur.
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Like +6 Object -0 Guest 15 Jun 18, 15:12  interesting
Amidst all the bickering, assuming people from NLSIU are actually reading this, any idea what is the status of that foolish move by the Karnataka Government to introduce 50% domicile reservation? Please tell me that has been set aside or something! A fine institution cannot be subjected to this kind of ridicule! Kian, any idea/update?
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 16 Jun 18, 12:25
Kian, any development about this that you know of?
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 16 Jun 18, 12:26
Yes, Kian please update us. In fact, this can be a huge blow that will definitely push NLSIU from it's no 1 position, which is already precarious.
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Like +5 Object -0 Guest 15 Jun 18, 15:38  interesting
I have a rather fundamental question to ask. Why is it that Magic Circle jobs are considered to be somehow 'better' or 'superior' to Indian law firm jobs? If it is because of the higher pay and more comfortable work conditions, I have nothing to object about. However, that merely makes them more covetous, not 'better' like, say, in terms of making a difference to the society or cause of justice or anything else. Even when someone is opting for litigation, it is not as if he is doing the society a whole lot of favour (unless he regularly deals with matters pro bono, gets involved with legal aid, etc., which let's face it, very few litigators end up doing). Serving society through research, policy jobs or academia, I get that. But everything else is just people trying to get more money and stay more comfortable, isn't it, at the end of the day? Not that I have any problem with that or that it is wrong, just that this concept of some form of jobs being inherently morally superior or something as a whole over what appears to be fairly similar other jobs, seems to be based on some faulty premise. I actually know a brilliant batchmate who let go of foreign firm offers and Indian firm offers and is now currently teaching. Can't say what drives him, given the state of these NLUs and their admin, but I can respect that choice, because he is actually trying to make a difference. A person who opts for a foreign firm job on the other hand, may also be a brilliant one, but he is only trying to serve his own interest (not that there's anything wrong with that); not a whole lot of difference between him and one who works for an Indian firm actually.
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Like +0 Object -0 Guest 16 Jun 18, 06:34
It all depends on media hype and PR. A university needs a good website and favourable media coverage to create a buzz.
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Like +4 Object -0 Guest 16 Jun 18, 12:25
Completely agree. This is the age of 'jo dikhta hai, wohi bikta hai', even when it comes to education. Institutes like NLUD and JGLS have understood and embraced that fact, as reflected in their focused PR work (which is not to say they don't have any substance to boast about, they certainly do). The others too need to, asap. Where there is little substantive difference between the top NLUs in reality, the packaging, promotion and PR can and do make all the difference, like it or not.
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Like +0 Object -5 FFS 16 Jun 18, 13:17
If I was marketing a lower tier NLU, I would make a fancy website and have photos of gorgeous models posing as students, next to nerdy-looking guys (like Beauty and the Geek). A large chunk of male toppers will immediately flock to my college. To attract the female toppers, I would post pics of guys who look like Ranbir Kapoor posing with cuddly animals, saying our legal aid camp prevents little puppies and kittens from being tortured. Below is an example of a good photo, from the website of Sharda University.

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Like +5 Object -0 Guest 16 Jun 18, 13:48  interesting
Didn't know in your mind, pictures of students are equal to publicizing the activities and achievements of the university. One learns something new every day.
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Like +3 Object -0 Gyanchand 16 Jun 18, 12:58
Re faculty rankings, I do agree that JGLS profs have the best qualifications and CVs. However, the students are really terrible. They have no interest in studies and people get in with single digit percentages in their entrance exam. Only 10 or 15 students in a batch are good. These are the ones who end up in tier 1 firms and foreign firms or get good LLM scholarships. But there are close to 400 in a batch, so we are just talking about 10%. The professors stick around there either because of law firm-style salaries or because they are kept out of NLUs due to nepotism and politics (some quit NLUs as well). Thus, even though Prof Chauhan's study says students choose law schools because of faculty, if a law school has very good faculty and bad students no one will choose it.
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Like +6 Object -1 Guest 16 Jun 18, 13:51  interesting
Another thing is fancy degrees do not make a good teacher necessarily. I've met multiple legal academics in India, who have got their degrees from Ivy League colleges, but are terrible inside classrooms. This still remains a profession where you truly need to care about students to be able to make any real difference in their lives and education.
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Like +1 Object -2 Guest 18 Jun 18, 07:23
I have a message for the NUJS SJA on the point about publicity:

1) Although your website is classy looking and rich in information, the official NUJS website looks cheap and ugly, with no information about news and happenings. Your website should used as the template for the official NUJS website and the two websites should be merged, else CLAT aspirants will get deterred from joining NUJS.

2) You should prepare profiles of 100 interesting alumni of NUJS and share it on the official website. If you showcase the interesting work NUJS graduates are doing it will attract CLAT aspirants. The 100 profiles can be a mix of foreign law firm associates (10), Indian law firm partners (10), in-house counsels (10), people in Supreme Court lawyers chambers (10), people in High Courts and district courts (10), UPSC and judicial service (10), policy work in India and abroad (10), academics (10), NGOs and activism (10) and those in out of the box careers like politics, journalism, entrepreneurship etc (10).

3) You can also have positive testimonials from celebrity parents and CEOs/judges/IAS officers whose children went there (not taking the names here).

4) The comment about NLSIU being the "Harvard of the East" was a comment by the then Chief Minister of Karnataka, SM Krishna. It was then used by PR people as some sort of official endorsement by Harvard itself. You should get someone of stature like Amartya Sen, Kaushik Basu or Ruma Pal to similarly make a flattering statement and put it up.
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Like +2 Object -2 Lafanga 18 Jun 18, 11:36
Oh please ! celebrity parent endorsements are the last thing we need. There are enough young princes and princesses already with heads too big for their bonnets. Everywhere around me is a young star from an IAS, IPS, JNU profesor, MLA.
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Like +1 Object -0 Fellow NLSIU Alumnus 18 Jun 18, 23:26
I have not read the full report but the language used in the introductory chapter suggests that the entire thing has been written by SidC himself and the other co-authors were just involved with the data collection. I remember him writing a memo on similar issues for the NLSIU School Review Commission when we were in our 5th year in 2007-2008. The Commission's report in 2009 did not engage with most of the issues raised by him. It's been 10 years and clearly the chap does not give up easily even if no one is listening to him.

The present students at NLSIU probably don't realise this but the present Vice-Chancellor R. Venkata Rao's decision to remove SidC from a contractual teaching position in February 2013 is probably the single worst decision of his tenure. I met with some NALSAR students recently and he seems to be prospering there. He has built up their public lectures programme and has already helped several NALSAR students with getting into top masters' programmes abroad. And unlike the sea of mediocrity that is law teaching in India, the students are actually learning something from his classes in constitutional law and political philosophy. NLSIU students (and the few decent faculty members who are left) need to get their act together and prevent Venkata Rao from getting a renewal for a third term in 2019.
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Like +2 Object -1 Greenday 19 Jun 18, 09:00
To those saying teacher qualifications cannot be used for rankings, you are making a pretty shallow argument. The best way to objective measure the quality of a professor is to measure research output in Indian and international journals that are widely considered by peers to be leading journals (Hein/Westlaw/Scopus etc), plus book chapters (or full books) published by publishers widely considered by peers to be leading publishers (OUP, CUP, Sage etc). If a person has widely published in leading journals then it is reasonable to assume that he/she is knowledgeable about his/her subject and is a knowledgeable instructor.

You people are claiming that we should look at INSTRUCTION, as opposed to RESEARCH and KNOWLEDGE, by looking at factors like class punctuality, friendliness towards students, communication skills etc. You can't objectively measure this for thousands of professors, which is why QS and Times look at research output. Surely, this is fairest way to objectively measure faculty quality? Also, I would be suspicious of universities where teachers are "friendly" to students and "communicate" well, but fare poorly in research. This would lead me to believe the such teachers are merely communicating book knowledge without fresh perspectives and also winning students over with friendly behaviour over substance.

I would also be curious to know if those making these arguments are from NLUs with ... cough cough..... excellent "communicators" and "friendly" faculty who never publish.
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Like +3 Object -0 Guest 19 Jun 18, 11:35
@Greenday: I agree with you that publications are the only possible objective way at this stage for outsiders to gauge faculty quality. However, I do not agree with the manner in which you refer to teaching skills disdainfully as 'friendliness with the students' and treat it as sub-par or something that automatically comes with knowledge of the subject. In my 5 years of law school study and subsequently, I've actually met basically 4 kinds of teachers, those who neither publish quality papers, nor can teach well (highest in number), those who do not publish much, but are exceptionally good in classroom teaching, which includes not only rehashing of books, but also getting the students genuinely interested in the subject, those who do publish a lot but have average or sub par teaching skills only (some of the big names in Indian legal academia, whom I won't name here, but they just can't properly convey in classrooms what they know so as to get the students interested and learn), and those who publish and also teach well (fewest of the lot, naturally).
We need to consider that NLUs at this juncture are still primarily teaching universities and barring one or two, rarely have sufficient number of quality teachers to take care of the workload. Compare this with foreign universities, where teachers have less than 1/3 of the workload in terms of teaching, which actually frees their time to engage in quality research. Now, I've seen teachers at NLUs actually neglect their teaching duties or compromise with it in order to focus on their publications. I don't think that's ethical, because the primary duty is still to teach and help the students learn the fundamentals at first. Of course, there are a few exceptions who balance both somehow. But if a teacher focuses only on research at the expense of teaching, then she can still be an asset to the university (enhancing its profile), but is no better or worse than that teacher who spends her free time helping the students at the expense of her research. Of course, as you said, there's no objective metric to judge that yet. However, that doesn't mean we consider teaching skills to be secondary or something that automatically comes with research, because it doesn't.
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