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I'm fortunate that I don't need to give back or fund my family. My priority is to learn at this stage. Any recommendations will be useful.
What is abuse? Telling someone their work is no good cannot be abuse. That is where we are at. Don't keep moving goalposts ya. First it was " I cant go home early enough to do things I want" now its abuse and bad behavior. No one thinks that actual abuse is okay. But honestly yall whinge on here so much about not living like instagram influences that its crazy. Its enough to give everyone in the profession pause about working with any of the new people.
Marketing- money
Hostels- money
Unlimited students- money
Educational institution- factory - money
Foreign ties- marketing- money
No focus on quality of education?
Nothing on making it a respectable institution?
1. MDP & Partners
2. Regstreet
3. K. Ashar
4. The Law Point
Or
How many internships should i do from the 3rd year?
Search about Ameet Datta and the work he does.
International quotas.. they will surely not help you.. so please watch out for those partners/ associates who making it on their own.. all the best..
Will appreciate response from seniors.
Won't it affect my CGPA?
2. Seniors who play politics within and/or between teams
3. Firms where burnout is displayed as a badge of honour
The Day You Became A Better Writer
I went from being a bad writer to a good writer after taking a one-day course in “business writing.” I couldn’t believe how simple it was. I’ll tell you the main tricks here so you don’t have to waste a day in class.
Business writing is about clarity and persuasion. The main technique is keeping things simple. Simple writing is persuasive. A good argument in five sentences will sway more people than a brilliant argument in a hundred sentences. Don’t fight it.
Simple means getting rid of extra words. Don’t write, “He was very happy” when you can write “He was happy.” You think the word “very” adds something. It doesn’t. Prune your sentences.
Humor writing is a lot like business writing. It needs to be simple. The main difference is in the choice of words. For humor, don’t say “drink” when you can say “swill.”
Your first sentence needs to grab the reader. Go back and read my first sentence to this post. I rewrote it a dozen times. It makes you curious. That’s the key.
Write short sentences. Avoid putting multiple thoughts in one sentence. Readers aren’t as smart as you’d think.
Learn how brains organize ideas. Readers comprehend “the boy hit the ball” quicker than “the ball was hit by the boy.” Both sentences mean the same, but it’s easier to imagine the object (the boy) before the action (the hitting). All brains work that way. (Notice I didn’t say, “That is the way all brains work”?)
That’s it. You just learned 80% of the rules of good writing. You’re welcome.
Problem starts when incompetencies are punished.
10. Do basic research - if the person looks like one of a particular gender don't use the opposite title of ma'am/ sir.
“Arrogant people are non-learners. They invest their energies in maintaining a cozy feeling of complacency, and complacency is the biggest single enemy to the process of continuously learning from experience. Arrogant people are exactly the sort of people who are destined to have one year's experience 20 times rather than 20 years' worth of experience.“
Would appreciate any help and advice thanks.
https://www.legallyindia.com/convos/topic/161777-honest-salaries-paid-by-newly-designated-senior-advocates
The arguing counsel couple of Mr Gopal Sankarnarayan (2001, NLS) and Haripriya Padmanabhan (1998, NLS) are decent paymasters and very popular bosses. Even their interns (of which I was one) get 12,500 to 15,000. Juniors get between 40000 to more than a lakh depending on the years of experience. Most important, there is a proper work life balance:
1. You don't have to go into office in the mornings and go directly to court.
2. Friday after court and Sundays are off, except for online conferences for the junior who worked on the case.
3. They make it a point to refer to juniors during arguments and acknowledge their assistance.
4. One of the juniors who plays football is allowed to go for training and matches when she has to.
5. They take all Supreme Court vacations off and juniors get paid. So you get paid leave of almost 2.5 months a year!
6. In addition, juniors can do their own independent work and get guidance from the two of them.
7. Right now they have 6 juniors all of whom are women. There have been men in the past, a few of whom still continue to work on matters after they have left.
As far as how the nickname originated, as a general expression "Harvard of the East" has historically been used often to describe many universities in many contexts. For example, in 1972, the title of a book on Moscow Lomonosov University described it as the "Harvard of the East". Obviously, here East meant anything East of the Berlin Wall.
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Andreas-Hrsg-F%C3%B6rster/dp/B0025WIAR6
Similarly, there are old articles referring to NUS Singapore and Peking University in China as the "Harvard of the East".
In Prof Madhava Menon's autobiography, he says that "Harvard of the East" was a kind of USP/marketing pitch used to get NLSIU started and to get bigwigs to support it.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Wl19pPHgIy4C&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA47&dq=%22harvard+of+the+east%22&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
As for how the nickname became mainstreamed, my research points to an India Today issue in 1998, when NLSIU was around 11 years old. This was the first-ever India Today issue ranking law schools. The issue says: "No wonder the school can claim to be the Harvard of the East."
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/education/story/19980706-best-law-colleges-in-india-nlsiu-bangalore-remains-no-828058-1998-07-05
Most likely the nickname was fed to India Today by an over-enthusiastic faculty member/admin at NLSIU and the magazine copied it blindly. I'm told that India Today was hugely influential in the 90s, as there weren't too many 24x7 news channels and websites around back then. So this was probably the start of how this nickname became popular.
Subsequently, the India Today college ranking issues reproduced the nickname as follows:
1999: "Our own Harvard of the east, this law institute despite its small history (only 12 years) has a very large reputation"
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/education/story/19990614-india-today-gallup-mba-poll-identifies-centres-of-excellence-in-india-781133-1999-06-13
2000: "Called the Harvard of the East, the National Law School of India University (NLSIU) was established by an Act - Karnataka Act 22 of 1986 - under the sponsorship of the Bar Council of India."
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cover-story/story/20000619-best-law-colleges-in-india-nlsiu-bangalore-remains-no-779775-2000-06-18
2001: "Cliches such as the "Harvard of the East" abound for the 14-year-old National Law School of India University (NLSIU), Bangalore."
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cover-story/story/20010521-nlsiu-has-emerged-as-the-leading-indian-institution-for-legal-education-776158-2001-05-20
You may also look at this article by star alum Ashotosh Salil (IAS officer) from the 2006 batch, who says: "There was a piece about the National law School (NLS), Bengaluru calling it the “Harvard of the East.” NLS was also ranked as the number one law school in the country. "
He's very obviously pointing to the old India Today rankings issues.
https://www.outlookindia.com/national/law-diary-magazine-299011
So it looks like the India Today late 90s/early 2000s issues cemented this nickname and it continued. Now, you may say that it was wrong of the college to have fed India Today the nickname (if that was the case) but the media is expected to be neutral in its assessment and not blindly reproduce things. Also, in fairness, all young colleges (and NLSIU was young then) try to fake it before they make it. Best example is JGLS, which is now in the QS rankings through marketing wizardry. I could also argue that Ranbir Singh was a million times more shameless while promoting NALSAR and NLUD.
But the best quote on "Harvard of the East" is by good old Venky, who said:
"National Law School is a Harvard of the East but our vision is to make people call Harvard the Bangalore of the West.""
😀
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/india/best-colleges/story/20090622-indias-best-law-colleges-739990-2009-06-10
In my thirties. I have plenty of time left I can spare a minute or two to call you out on the bullshit. If you led a better examined life you wouldn’t have to cling to your youth as if it were a virtue.
Not everyone wants to do well. The scam/ hustle culture is quite big among young people. They do think all they need to do is to be able to talk themselves out of doing hard work. Not every problem you have starts with someone else being in sufficiently motivational or mentoring or whatever. Sometimes it’s just about you expecting these things on a platter. You need to work on your own motivation. And if you demonstrate drive and commitment sooner or later someone will mentor you- the profession exists because of that. But you can’t make your self improvement or lack of it someone else’s fault. That’s not how adult life works.
This is how law school kids complain “ oh I don’t study cause the prof doesn’t seem fun “ - it’s not his job to be. Not everything in life is about fun- his job is to teach the material- that maybe be boring material but it’s his job to teach it. And your job is to learn it even if it doesn’t give you seratonin. Cause not everything in life does.
If you think that having to share your flat with a roommate means you’re not living on luxury- I don’t know anyone who is that blind. The average law student is not supposed to be able to own or rent the year they start! If you’re spending 80 k on your rent because you’re too posh to share your flat - that just shows how spoilt and out of touch you are.
I am envious of you lot. You’ve had every opportunity and you’ve ruined them. I do hate it when corp lawyers whinge because they have absolutely no idea what anyone else in the country lives like. What is the problem with that ? Where is it written that you can only be judged by people exactly like you? You’re in a bubble. It’s not an acceptable state of affairs for everyone else to let you guys think you’re under going literal slavery when there are children in beedi and cigarette factories who go blind from working there in this country.
I do not have a problem with your average law college grad who goes into litigation or a small chamber , makes a modest amount of money or sometimes even gets paid very poorly.
People who get paid very poorly should whinge, and scream and fight and unionise until they get a living wage.
That is just not you. 15 k ten years ago was not 45 k. Please go check inflation indices instead of making shit up. You’re not in law school anymore.
When you’re interning - you look around at what the associates are doing with your eyes. That’s part of what you’re there for. This isn’t hard. Just because someone offered you a job - doesn’t mean they’re in love with you.
Technically, the virtue signalling 'seniors' will not even look at a client without having placed 10 Lakhs at the table.
It is better for younger professionals to look at MBA as an option.
https://www.barandbench.com/news/lawyer-appears-in-supreme-court-with-injured-hand-after-stray-dog-attack-cji-says-his-law-clerk-was-also-attacked
Quality matter more, long term internship are a big green flag.
5 long term internship with boutique firms in five years of your law school have way more value than 10 1-month tier-1 internships.
Pick a boutique firm, try to convert your internship into long term or even become a paralegal if possible.
Target tier-1 firm only with the view of displaying your performance.
Step 2. Assuming you're working in a top tier team and with global clients, you could get an interview call.
Step 3. Nail the interview.
Step 4. £££
Plus the billing rate differential is too wide for it to make any money for the partnership. On average London bills at £1000/hr, Singapore at £650 and you won't be able to bill more than £200 in Mumbai - dragging down PEP.
The firms will come... eventually. India is a macro story and they'd want a part of the pie - but the regs need to settle and fees need to catch up. Will be interesting to see who's the first to bite the bullet. My bet is on Links.
They also are very religious about their summer and winter vacations so the associates get a 2 months of paid leave every year. What more can you ask for?
A year ago when I wanted an internship, a college senior gave me an important piece of advice - he said when you have to choose a chamber, dont look only at how good the lawyer there is, but also how well the juniors who have left are doing. That will show what a mentor the person is.
Oh, and I forgot, they also allow juniors to do their own work! ; )
FREEDOM FOR EVERYTHING
As per my experience, keep trying one way or the other, don't rely completely on the recruiter. Once the recruiter has sent your CV to the firm, you can ask for the name of the Partners with whom the positions are available and then can directly mail to them (the recruiter will still get their cut so its a win-win).
Also, try to address the reason for the one year gap you have in your CV (be honest and clear, don't make things up or you will get caught in the interview)
I just want to have reasonable work hours so I can have time for myself, for the things I love, for my family, friends and community even if it comes at a cost of professional success.
Am I wrong to have no professional goals? Is there any way I can proceed from here?
Anything helps - perspectives, practical tips, etc.
Even start with internships if you get some good ones. It's better than doing nothing. Once you are in the market, in whatever position, you will have capacity to sell your services in a better way and possibly get hired soon.
2. If not, please stop micro managing what people do.
Their go-to metaphor? "You need the blazing heat of a furnace to purify gold" or perhaps a "stretch to judge how flexible the rubberband is" I'd say it's more of a half-baked excuse than a nugget of wisdom, an attempt to paint their old-school hazing as a badge of honour. I bet the fresh lot can value genuine mentorship and a dash of tough love. However, there’s a difference between that and a senior mistaking their gray hair for a license to play the nightmare-inducing boogeyman.
Cutting to the chase: every profession has its pompous balloons waiting to be popped. I've had the, let's say, "pleasure" of dealing with these so-called legal titans—the ones paraded as the cream of the crop. And boy, have I been left scratching my head! Not to toot my own horn, but we're talking basics here, folks. So, whenever someone starts waxing poetic about the 'golden days of lawyering,' I can't help but visualize a steaming, freshly served plate of... let's just say, a cow's generous donation to our environment.
Lastly, and just for the record, there's not even a shred of empirical evidence that supports the notion that a tormented soul drafts better documents or magically enhances one’s ability to dot the i's and cross the t's.
Old Faculty, yes. Considering everyone who has left. Abhay, Ratna, Liz Griffin, Laxmi Arya, Latika, Ashrita et. al. Please don't comment as if you know if you don't know the history.
Alas for posh apartments, in the city. The rent is ideally 80K above. No associate (given most of them make betweel 1L-1.5L during the course of their 3-4 ywar associate ship) rents out such places if they want to have anything resembling privacy. Fancy apartments only if you room/flat share with 3 or 4 other people. That's not a house or a home. That's a stop gap arrangement till you make some money when you can afford a house closer to the city, with your spouses salary combined. So boomer aunty/uncle, please stop assuming we all have it too easy.
I do realise a one year gap in my CV is not helping. But I'm sure many like me have gotten into firms. Pls help!
That's non negotiable.
Stop writing the same ghisa pita Victorian English.
Keep it simple.
What is the right way to message them without seeming stupid
And do not want to change or quit. When asked to do better, start criticising the world. Where is the self respect in that?
Law profession is demanding, law firms are more, lawyers are known for perfections in their work. All those who have it and are willing to give their best, will veritably succeed and will get all their demands fulfilled.
And others will keep whining and complaining and keep demanding, changing jobs, complaining every boss, criticising system. And once you are lawyer, you are not a kid anymore.
a. Posts about their college;
b. Comparing weiners of different colleges;
c. Making Quora like clickbaity voyeur posts to get insights on law firm life - but yaar at least ask about all law firms, what this T1 T1 obsession?, y'all have never adulted;
Given the above nonsensical spam, would it be possible to make a different section for college related bakwaas?
Doing so, I believe may help in fostering better discussions on both adult topics and this weiner waving.
Also, everyone, please. T1 firms and colleges and NLUs and Non-NLUs are equally mediocre. This is from someone who is mediocre af, I can tell you everyone is mediocre or worse.
All the grandeur you guys associate with all this is just pure showbaazi. Nothing more nothing less.
My T1 Partner keeps telling me - "We're the best M&A team there is in India, the A Team". I'm inclined to not believe my partner considering the quality of work we do, and the way we fumble about for solutions.
1. Either do more internships at those T1 firms , since most of the T1 firms hire a person if you have done internship there or have a high corporate internships experience at various T1 firms.
2. Various T1 firms have one internship policy where you have to perform well there and then hope for a PPO or at least can request them to short list your name from their side through their HR.
3. If you have good networks/ connections then just directly ask a partner of that particular T1 firm where you want to work for an interview opportunity for job or directly a job.
- Plain English over legal eccentricities (no "hereinafter", "wherefore" etc.). This doesn't include terms of art which need to be used as they are.
- Avoid using multiple words where you can use one ("if" instead of "in the event of")
- Simple past and active voice where possible ("we discussed" instead of "it was discussed by us that")
- Spend some time organising the flow of your argument before you begin drafting. I often work with my team to set out a structure before they begin the draft, so it holds together better. You should ideally ask for guidance on this if you can.
- Use sub-headings where you can to delineate different sections of your argument. Clarity is as important an ideal to chase, as accuracy.
I literally worked with rape victims for years after law school and you want to mock that? - it was that famous ngo in bombay if you really care. But I'm not gonna doxx myself more to children on the internet. You sure youre better than me? That seems moral to you?
I'm absolutely none of those things you think about me. And your assumptions say more about your victim mentality and "if anyone disagrees with me they must be evil" thinking than they do about me.
I pay my juniors and interns exceedingly well- but if they dont perform they know they will have to go elsewhere soon. I wont carry people who will waste my time or put my clients in harms way. Not for a day longer than necessary. And I dont hire just anyone. I had zero connections in law. Literally first generation college student. I dont yell at people. I got yelled at a lot and I myself get quite anxious around people who yell. I pay freaking traffic fines. No corruption. Turns out you can make an honest living when you work hard and are good at your job. Shock! Horror!
And I didnt block FDI- but please do not assume any foreign law firm would hire slackers who cant put in billable hours. It is literally a pop culture trope about how american lawyers in big law are cutthroat and how difficult it is to stay on at a firm or advance in your career without putting in crazy hours. I know quite a few colleagues from law school who took the magic circle route- they may have a yearly vacation now and then- but they work crazy hours the rest of the time. No one gets home at 5 pm to ride off to the beach to watch the sunset with their model girlfriend. And those places will expect quality analytical and detail oriented folks to do the work. Like 10% of firm lawyers in india would even be considered. Why do you think consultancies that can hire in india dont hire from most indian law schools- even nls they only take a couple every few years. They are chock full of engineers though because those guys work hard.
I dont have children- but if I did I would dissuade them from going into big law with these grand expectations of utopia. And I would teach them the social, economic, and spiritual value of hard work. Leave your campsite better than you find it dude. If you can only think about how your life is not perfect- you get myopic and dont realise the house nextdoor is burning.
Cap Marks has a lot of attrition, but on the other hand, M&A teams are generally bigger and even smaller firms have steady practices.
If you are earning well with a firm that you are currently with - it becomes quite difficult to foray into the unknown with no assurance of a monthly paycheck.
Another factor to consider is where your source of work will come from. If at a High Court level - do you have enough contacts with trial court lawyers who would feed you matters in appeals/ writs. Are you likely to get a few clients from the office where you are currently working. Other determining factors could be age, marriage, children, preference of city, etc.
There are many subjective and objective factors that would need to be considered before one takes the plunge. But there is one important element which usually you cannot be prepared for - some may call it luck, some may call it 'naseeb', some may call its God's wishes - but there is surely that some unknown force/ factor which is not in your control - which could be your guiding light.
However, I feel that in a usual circumstance, about a 5 year work-ex is a good time to consider going independent. I went independent after 6 years of being with a law firm.
I am not sure whether I have answered your question or confused you more. But I do not think there is a straight-jacket formula which is the absolute correct answer/ response. Further, what scenario may work for one person - may not work for another.
Having said that, I have found the world of independent lit practice to be fantastic. Has its own bumps and challenges - but overall is very rewarding. Good luck with whatever decision that you take.
If you’re the sort of person who took a firm seriously when (if) they told you you’d have the free time of a Kim kardashian - I mean theres no warning you at that point. Do you want to buy a talking dog ? I’m a Nigerian Prince send me your account details.
These places make you work long hours - that had been true for freaking years. Ask anyone. On the flip side they actually pay you well for your time unlike cab drivers and delivery boys who work the same hours , do harder manual labour, and then get a pittance for their trouble.
@KIAN can you please help in improving the working conditions of young Indian lawyers so that their confidence doesn't die a death?