I had applied for a job at a Ex- Tier-1 SA's boutique law firm .
Cleared the first assessment, but no reply for almost 2 months. Suddenly got an invite for an interview.
Gave it, went great, the Partner seemed satisfied with my profile everything. Was asked to wait for anoter week, took follow-up twice. Rejected.
reason? No skills? no good internships? not enough convincing answers in the interview? i don't think so. Why consider in the first place when I don't have the skills according to you?
Go figure yourself guys, it's beyond me now. Having patiently waited for more than 3 months for a boutique law firm, only for a rejection. That's where the non-creamy layer of the Legal fraternity has come.
If you think that your candidature couldn't have been rejected on grounds of your CV because they would never have shortlisted you to begin with otherwise, doesn't the same logic apply to which university you come from too?
If they didn’t want to consider non nlu people they wouldn’t have interviewed you- twice. The job market is tough - you don’t know what happened, maybe a former employee came back, maybe they had an internal candidate they wanted to elevate, maybe the partners best friends son put in an application., maybe they looked at numbers and figured they couldn’t hire you. If they’ve interviewed you - you spoke to a partner - at that point nlu / non nlu is not what is going on. Who told you to wait three months ? In the job market you apply everyday to different places and then reject offers you don’t want. Take it on the chin and move on.
Most discriminated and all is hyperbole. This is a country with endemic poverty and caste and religious discrimination not to mention trenchant sexism. Don’t play victim.
Not even trying to troll, but sometimes circumstances don't allow for a drop / gap year, just depends. Also not in favor of OP because I had a similar experience w a tier 1 IP firm, just know that hiring is a big decision with multiple factors at play and the fact that you got two interviews means they overlooked the college for sure.
Here are a couple of reasons why you may not have been hired.
1. The vacancy ceased to exist. The firm decided to promote someone internally and not take the risk of hiring someone else and test waters and eventually arrive at a culture shock.
2. The firm opted for someone who had more PQE than you and that trumped your candidature.
3. If it was a client transaction that had drove the decision to hire, maybe things did not work out with the client and hence the aftermath?
State University is always a thing. You will make it big in your career if you keep at it but it takes time and a lot more effort than what others needed. This is in addition to discounting your years of experience when you join a tier 1 law firm and all the BS like that.
For all those who ask "Why did you not retake CLAT?" Let's lay the tables, shall we?
i. Paisa baby. Not everyone of us is born in the lush comfort of Rupee bills.
ii. We may have older parents whom we can't leave behind.
iii. In addition to both, some people just are not comfortable moving out. Yes, they choose to remain inside their shells or well, just like you throw a spear of an absolutely unwarranted and unrelated question everytime someone talks about the hardships faced by state university student.
FYI, use some brain cells (if u have any I doubt).
i) Top Tier NLUs are an investment, not a luxury. If someone takes a loan to study at them he/she will surely get the ROI. Plus a lot of scholarships are also available
ii) We live in India bro, Tu Africa se aya hai to not our problem.
iii) Everyone wants growth , who doesn't, but at what cost?
i) Which means that money isn't a problem right? If I'll surely get the ROI then I'll go for it. That's a good financial decision I guess?
ii) Han India mein hi. At 18, people usually won't have older parents whom they absolutely can't leave. In case they have an older parent, usually they will have an elder brother/sister. I never said that it cannot be the case but usually it's not common and will not fall under 1% of the cases.
iii) If you are not willing to bear the costs then you don't deserve the growth, it's as simple as that!
Actually, there are plenty of good people who cannot join NLUs because of money. CLAT exam is still an expensive one to appear for insofar as a large chunk of the population is concerned. If you are unaware of that, get down from your privileged ivory tower and talk to people who are involved with initiatives like IDIA for example.
Why are you bothered about getting a job at a law firm? Go to the local courts and start your practice then. Education is an investment in human capital.
Will u pay me to work at courts or ur dad. I don't want to work in that seedy environment such as local courts where I would be nothing but a court clerk toting files from courtroom to courtroom. A law firm job atleast gives me financial independence and growth opportunities.
Your argument is clearly indicative of the notion that everyone is born in a household, which is above a certain income level.Which is not my friend.
Oha nd Btw , the fees of NLUs have skyrocketed , whereas the Returns is actually plummeting at these NLUS, so yeah , I don't see a harm in people having second thoughts about investing their hard earned money .
i. Yes. I had a batchmate with a 170+ CLAT rank (but within 200). The only reason he could not join was because he had lost his father right before his boards and there was no way a lower-middle class widow could send her son away to college that would cost her this much. This is not the only time. Have come across other kids on whom life had taken an unfortunate toll.
Regarding iii. Come on man he wanted to join a boutique law firm right at its inception (from what the OP has cleared). Its not like he is whining about a top-tier law firm. I am from a state university and I know differences exist and rightly so. Better faculties, better connections, better alumni network- all of these play a big part. But that doesn't mean OP or others here are not 'relevant' in their profession and would be snubbed by each and every law firm out there.
Also thanks for the non-trollish comment. Baki do naujawan toh censored mey hi kho gaye! Cheers mate!
i) Hi, can you name the year and rank? People who are fighting against high NLU fees are struggling to find people like your friend. It would be a big boost to their fight.
All T1 NLUs have internal scholarships which can extend to 100% of the fees depending on the financial situation of the family + Education loans usually can cover traveling expenses as well. So, please ask that person to come out so that everyone gets to know what the actual problem that he had faced.
iii) But OP did compare themselves with NLU kids. The main issue was the NLU v non-NLU fight.
Boutiques can be big firms too. Eg: ICUL and a lot of others. Depends on which firm it was
1. You need to know actual names of people who couldn't afford NLUs, just to motivate you to go for work towards your goal? Just the mere knowledge that it's a common occurrence, is not enough? Stop looking for poverty porn.
Seriously, people thinking this is an uncommon thing, "nAmE oNe iNciDenT!" are either reaallly out of touch and probably need to reconsider a lot of things in life, or are just trolling. In either case, don't warrant the response of a serious discussion.
1. She had just started her firm and I was one of the first batch of people to be interviewed, so question of elevating an assessment intern or vacancy ceasing to exist doesnt arise.
2. Im not the first one who faced such arbitrary discrimination . There are so many graduates who lose the hiring battle to NLU pricks, even if they are far -far better than those puper-pushing ass talkers.
3. If I could show you my rejection mail, I would still be standing where I did when is was battling this whole nlu-non-nlu conundrum- No proper reason for rejection, no inputs or feedback, valuable insights etc. Like i'm apply to a tier -1 law firm and I received a cold- auto generated mail for condolence. For fuck's sake are we people so indispensable?
Every comment of yours is so fraught with grammatical errors and mistakes that the same could very well have been a reason why you are not being hired. For example, you wrote indispensable when you clearly meant to write the opposite.
They do judge based on language. You just thinking that you deserve a particular job and have the necessary skills does not aid you in landing it. You should be able to show it as well, which you clearly have not either in the interview or on this comment section. Don't cry about NLU crowd doing better because even the average to moderate people in NLUs have a basic standard that is much higher than the university you belong to. Just stop whining at this point.
Not plain English, incorrect English. Followed by arrogance. You are making it clearer by the minute why you are not getting a job. So try introspecting for a change.
Matter of fact you guys have an inflatable ego. The moment someone starts spilling facts, you Batch- bearers are laid bare. I introspected for a while and realized that stereotypes are going to stay regardless who/what you are. People wouldn't stop favoring you guys regardless your incompetency and they wouldn't notice us, regardless our struggles. There's no point fighting over this issue, and this thread isn't helping anyone either.
Moderator, you are being the Devil's Advocate here my editing my replies. Atleast sacchai to batane do, or maybe you are also on the commission rolls of ConSikho.
There is a lot of discrimination.It may or may not be the reason that you didn't get hired.But dint get bogged down.You dont lose unless you give up.Dont allow them to make you give up.Keep trying and you will make it.
These spoilt kids wouldnt have the aukat to clear even basic exam such as CLAT, They are cash bulls for Jindal etc. Amity seriously? bhai m apne kutte ko bhi waha na bhejun pdhne.
Thanks for that clarification. This exactly is what I guess most people mean when they have this NLU/Non-NLU convo. The access to a well-established alumni base or connections within the family that the kids can use vs those that can't.
And for all those people trolling my grammar here, U guys have certainly not heard the joke where an English Major once confused between the words "unpossible" and "impossible". Perhaps use some pragmatic logic, or I guess your ▮▮▮/▮▮▮ brain is a good - for - nothing meme - making novelty act.
Several top partners in top tier firms are non nlu grads. amity and whatnot. So nlu is not a criteria. almost all top senior advs are also from state unis or private grads. It's only now that the NLS bunch is claiming litigation. This trend will take up as other NLUs get older - just because kids from NLUs are already used to the grind.
But clearly if you are gunning for big money, big dogs will look for excuses to filter through the bunch.
What you can do to stand out? write, publish, present, anything that seperates you from the general gunk coming out of donation quota institutes. Mind you, NLUs already have a filtration criteria at CLAT, howsoever silly it may be, meaning dumbest kids at NLUs are presumed to be smarter than non-NLU klds. That presumption is very rebuttable.
I do support the advice you gave, and with the second paragraph in general.
Mere do paise on this:
1. The top tier firm law partners who are non-NLU were so before NLUs become relevant. If you were to judge based on that criteria alone in today's time, we still have T1,2 and 3 NLUs, where the lowest rung NLUs suffer just as much as outlier colleges.
2. Litigation has always been dominated by state unis for the same reason. Also, the kind of money that is spent in NLUs to obtain the degree, it is generally hard for the NLU grad to shift to litigation with its low paying culture and survive for a significant amount of time before the dice starts rolling.
3. Regarding rigour of NLUs, this is something that most state unis do not get. Your courses are tougher than ours, with dozens of research papers, assignments, moots, paper presentations, seminars and what not.
[I guess] the point that OP is trying to make is that even after doing everything you said in the second paragraph (and as someone who has personally done that to separate myself from the crowd at my state uni), there are still biased notions that are held on by most law firms (not referring to tiers here). Its not like they are not insurmountable, they just require a lot more time than what someone else starting further from the starting line would need. On top of that (as far as LI threads have reported) there is also this particular habit of tiered law firms to discount the years of experience when laterally shifting for better pay and for obvious ambition.
Big dogs are sniffing for the wrong things is what we mean mostly. Am I equivalent to the top crop of NLUs? Probably not. But a lot of students from NLUs who do get hired sometimes do a shabbier job than a big bunch of us and that is where the systemic problem lies.
Agreed with all points - climbing up the ladder has a huge element of luck - right firm, right time. Advice on this? Start small - switch ferociously till you make it where you belong.
also, shabbier jobs payback with interest in the longer run. Karma catches up. Or so we'd like to believe - sometimes it doesnt if your daddy knows people in the profession.
The sobering thought here is that not everyone here has a daddy in the profession even if they come from a privileged bg. Also what I have personally come to believe over my law school is that the cake is big enough. No matter how much one hoards, the cake is sufficiently big to feed most. Its just that some get there sooner than later.
Also whoever put that reply up there, not sure how disclosing the name of any firm with preferable work-life (or in my case one that supports the commitments I have towards my family) would help state-unis. I did most of what @NLU grad had mentioned in the previous thread and even then I consider myself lucky to have witnessed things work out.
Can't give out the name of the firm because I would dox myself. Its a very small team. But for starters, its based out Delhi NCR, has an ex-Khaitan as the partner, is a boutique firm and started a couple of months ago. Cheers!
Not that I know of man. I don't even think they would run that decision by me even if that was the case. In case I come to know of something, let's just agree I'll drop a lead here? :)
It's just something they catch on to and make their whole personality. I have seen so many kids on LI fighting tooth and nail to defend their uni. Having the utmost respect for the academic rigor at these colleges, since I never got an education like that from a state uni, hard work will ultimately come through, regardless. This is not a comparison, but just keep pushing through and things do work out. Questions like 'why didn't you retake' are stupid. Abh graduate karke yeh thodi sochne baith jayega, time machine hai kya uske paas? As someone who chose not to retake (my state uni was ranked pretty well at the time), I didn't start off w a tier 1 but I was so so grateful for what I learnt a boutique firm and am now getting interviews at t1s. It takes a while, but you'll get there.
Cleared the first assessment, but no reply for almost 2 months. Suddenly got an invite for an interview.
Gave it, went great, the Partner seemed satisfied with my profile everything. Was asked to wait for anoter week, took follow-up twice. Rejected.
reason? No skills? no good internships? not enough convincing answers in the interview? i don't think so. Why consider in the first place when I don't have the skills according to you?
Go figure yourself guys, it's beyond me now. Having patiently waited for more than 3 months for a boutique law firm, only for a rejection. That's where the non-creamy layer of the Legal fraternity has come.
Most discriminated and all is hyperbole. This is a country with endemic poverty and caste and religious discrimination not to mention trenchant sexism. Don’t play victim.
All of this is a part and parcel of life, Just dont treat others as you have been treated.
You will make it eventually irrespective of your college, STAY DETERMINED And work in a structured manner
All the Best to you too, Lets start working instead of Whining. If you have worked harder than the rest, you will make it!
1. The vacancy ceased to exist. The firm decided to promote someone internally and not take the risk of hiring someone else and test waters and eventually arrive at a culture shock.
2. The firm opted for someone who had more PQE than you and that trumped your candidature.
3. If it was a client transaction that had drove the decision to hire, maybe things did not work out with the client and hence the aftermath?
State University is always a thing. You will make it big in your career if you keep at it but it takes time and a lot more effort than what others needed. This is in addition to discounting your years of experience when you join a tier 1 law firm and all the BS like that.
For all those who ask "Why did you not retake CLAT?" Let's lay the tables, shall we?
i. Paisa baby. Not everyone of us is born in the lush comfort of Rupee bills.
ii. We may have older parents whom we can't leave behind.
iii. In addition to both, some people just are not comfortable moving out. Yes, they choose to remain inside their shells or well, just like you throw a spear of an absolutely unwarranted and unrelated question everytime someone talks about the hardships faced by state university student.
-Toodles!
ii. Valid reason but rarely the case.
iii. If you wanna stay in your shell forever then settle for a job that allows you to stay inside your shell and not look for growth or improvement.
i) Top Tier NLUs are an investment, not a luxury. If someone takes a loan to study at them he/she will surely get the ROI. Plus a lot of scholarships are also available
ii) We live in India bro, Tu Africa se aya hai to not our problem.
iii) Everyone wants growth , who doesn't, but at what cost?
ii) Han India mein hi. At 18, people usually won't have older parents whom they absolutely can't leave. In case they have an older parent, usually they will have an elder brother/sister. I never said that it cannot be the case but usually it's not common and will not fall under 1% of the cases.
iii) If you are not willing to bear the costs then you don't deserve the growth, it's as simple as that!
Why are you practicing law then, my friend, why not take a loan and run an oil refinery? The returns are crazy.
Oha nd Btw , the fees of NLUs have skyrocketed , whereas the Returns is actually plummeting at these NLUS, so yeah , I don't see a harm in people having second thoughts about investing their hard earned money .
i. Yes. I had a batchmate with a 170+ CLAT rank (but within 200). The only reason he could not join was because he had lost his father right before his boards and there was no way a lower-middle class widow could send her son away to college that would cost her this much. This is not the only time. Have come across other kids on whom life had taken an unfortunate toll.
Regarding iii. Come on man he wanted to join a boutique law firm right at its inception (from what the OP has cleared). Its not like he is whining about a top-tier law firm. I am from a state university and I know differences exist and rightly so. Better faculties, better connections, better alumni network- all of these play a big part. But that doesn't mean OP or others here are not 'relevant' in their profession and would be snubbed by each and every law firm out there.
Also thanks for the non-trollish comment. Baki do naujawan toh censored mey hi kho gaye! Cheers mate!
All T1 NLUs have internal scholarships which can extend to 100% of the fees depending on the financial situation of the family + Education loans usually can cover traveling expenses as well. So, please ask that person to come out so that everyone gets to know what the actual problem that he had faced.
iii) But OP did compare themselves with NLU kids. The main issue was the NLU v non-NLU fight.
Boutiques can be big firms too. Eg: ICUL and a lot of others. Depends on which firm it was
Seriously, people thinking this is an uncommon thing, "nAmE oNe iNciDenT!" are either reaallly out of touch and probably need to reconsider a lot of things in life, or are just trolling. In either case, don't warrant the response of a serious discussion.
Funny how the moderator moderated comment championing the nlus
1. She had just started her firm and I was one of the first batch of people to be interviewed, so question of elevating an assessment intern or vacancy ceasing to exist doesnt arise.
2. Im not the first one who faced such arbitrary discrimination . There are so many graduates who lose the hiring battle to NLU pricks, even if they are far -far better than those puper-pushing ass talkers.
3. If I could show you my rejection mail, I would still be standing where I did when is was battling this whole nlu-non-nlu conundrum- No proper reason for rejection, no inputs or feedback, valuable insights etc. Like i'm apply to a tier -1 law firm and I received a cold- auto generated mail for condolence. For fuck's sake are we people so indispensable?
Ohh yes btw, they finally hired a ▮▮▮
- Mukul Rohatgi's son: Amity
- Arun Jaitley's children: Amity
- Cyril Shroff's son: GLC
+ Many more. Bottomline: the real divide is between nepo kids and non-nepo kids.
Thanks for that clarification. This exactly is what I guess most people mean when they have this NLU/Non-NLU convo. The access to a well-established alumni base or connections within the family that the kids can use vs those that can't.
But clearly if you are gunning for big money, big dogs will look for excuses to filter through the bunch.
What you can do to stand out? write, publish, present, anything that seperates you from the general gunk coming out of donation quota institutes. Mind you, NLUs already have a filtration criteria at CLAT, howsoever silly it may be, meaning dumbest kids at NLUs are presumed to be smarter than non-NLU klds. That presumption is very rebuttable.
Sorry, for bursting bubbles.
I do support the advice you gave, and with the second paragraph in general.
Mere do paise on this:
1. The top tier firm law partners who are non-NLU were so before NLUs become relevant. If you were to judge based on that criteria alone in today's time, we still have T1,2 and 3 NLUs, where the lowest rung NLUs suffer just as much as outlier colleges.
2. Litigation has always been dominated by state unis for the same reason. Also, the kind of money that is spent in NLUs to obtain the degree, it is generally hard for the NLU grad to shift to litigation with its low paying culture and survive for a significant amount of time before the dice starts rolling.
3. Regarding rigour of NLUs, this is something that most state unis do not get. Your courses are tougher than ours, with dozens of research papers, assignments, moots, paper presentations, seminars and what not.
[I guess] the point that OP is trying to make is that even after doing everything you said in the second paragraph (and as someone who has personally done that to separate myself from the crowd at my state uni), there are still biased notions that are held on by most law firms (not referring to tiers here). Its not like they are not insurmountable, they just require a lot more time than what someone else starting further from the starting line would need. On top of that (as far as LI threads have reported) there is also this particular habit of tiered law firms to discount the years of experience when laterally shifting for better pay and for obvious ambition.
Big dogs are sniffing for the wrong things is what we mean mostly. Am I equivalent to the top crop of NLUs? Probably not. But a lot of students from NLUs who do get hired sometimes do a shabbier job than a big bunch of us and that is where the systemic problem lies.
also, shabbier jobs payback with interest in the longer run. Karma catches up. Or so we'd like to believe - sometimes it doesnt if your daddy knows people in the profession.
The sobering thought here is that not everyone here has a daddy in the profession even if they come from a privileged bg. Also what I have personally come to believe over my law school is that the cake is big enough. No matter how much one hoards, the cake is sufficiently big to feed most. Its just that some get there sooner than later.
Also whoever put that reply up there, not sure how disclosing the name of any firm with preferable work-life (or in my case one that supports the commitments I have towards my family) would help state-unis. I did most of what @NLU grad had mentioned in the previous thread and even then I consider myself lucky to have witnessed things work out.
Can't give out the name of the firm because I would dox myself. Its a very small team. But for starters, its based out Delhi NCR, has an ex-Khaitan as the partner, is a boutique firm and started a couple of months ago. Cheers!