A lot of times, elementary stuff is left on juniors! While the juniors always want credit, they even falter and act lackadaisical in elementary stuff! What do you expect a Partner to do? See the charts and basics? Juniors are for what? Just to bitch about partners and take credit?
Just give us clear instructions and feedback, don’t be rude and sarcastic and snappy, let us work from home when we’re not absolutely needed in office.
You dont want clear instructions. You want to be spoonfed so that you dont have to do the hard work because that takes away from your social media time a d sad attempts at ten second fame posts.
You don't want others to be rude and sarcastic but want a free pass to be rude, disrespectful, sarcastic, bitchy, gossipy and whiney.
You want to WFH all the time when in reality you are just lollygagging around in your jammies watching reels on social media and thinking of new ideas for your social media posts and attempts at getting two minutes of fame.
You want all of the glory but none of the hardwork.
You want all the money but none of the responsibility.
But you want people like him. That's why you recruit people like him. And then you whine. And you rant. And you throw a hissy fit. And you sens hysterical emails.
I guess people like him come to firms with their resume and give an assurance of hardwork, intelligence and dedication- that is tossed out of the window the second the job is obtained.
What you are saying is extremely subjective. It is completely dependant on the instructions given, and the remarks passed. Very factual.
But let's come to what's not factual- Partners these days do not have the time or patience to tech juniors. The reasoning for this may be bad targets from the ultimate boss or just incompetence to manage or lead, but the truth is quite clear- a whole generation cannot be incompetent. Almost every junior facing issues in the team with their boss or senior highlights bad, incomplete or incorrect instructions.
Partners- learn to communicate better. None of you have had management training, we understand, but that's no reason to shit on juniors when they turn in the work according to the instructions they received and interpreted.
Understand the wavelength of the junior and give them instructions accordingly, and also align your expectations.
If you expect them to think 10 steps ahead, atleast show them the first 3. Atleast teach them how to think better and optimise their commercial understanding.
You Partners who do not communicate are the problem. Pick up a management book and become better.
Start with accepting you need to improve/evolve, instead of blaming it on Gen X, Y, Z whatever.
Wait so if I have time to lollygag in my jammies, why cant i do it? Why do you need to see me sit and suffer in office with psychos i dont like? What do you care what i do with my free time? Not everyone wants to be a law firm partner who is basically a beggar among the actual rich people.
Your team is a jail. We all are praying for your downfall, you miserable crow. Ofcourse, #notallpartners. But yeah, definitely you.
Blaming only the junior (first level) associates without fixing responsibility with the PA/ junior partner reflects shabbily on the practice head/ senior partner
You will not get any upvotes because LI is full of law school kids and not actual lawyers. They don't understand the perspective of a partner and the responsibilities they have to shoulder, especially in a lala firm. All these juniors think they already know it all and can't make any mistakes. Yehi log fir hagg denge and the partner will have to take a fall. No doubt a partner has no right to shout or berate any team member, but the junior should also take responsibility and work diligently. You are not an intern anymore.
Who is saying that the junior should not? You are the one who is trying to play down the partner's behaviour and actions, under the guise of "no doubt the partner has no right" etc. If she did not have such right, then will there be any step taken against her? If not, then why should associates be held accountable here? They failed to do their job, she failed to do hers.
Agree that young lawyers don’t understand the responsibilities of being a partner but as a partner you have to stand up for your team, after all, it’s YOUR team. If something has gone wrong, it’s the team’s responsibility. You can’t blame just the junior associates who are maybe 2-3 years into this profession. You are a partner for a reason and they are associates for a reason. Maybe you should have reviewed their work or gotten it reviewed from a senior.
She didnt blame the juniors tho. Not in front of clients. In front of clients and her superiors she takes the blame. But its ridiculous to expect others to take responsibility for your work. Shes well within her rights to call you out and shame you for the poor work and behavior afterwards.
and given you biscuits and tea and a cuddle after? Get a grip. All it is is that male associates were humiliated by a female partner na? thats what really pinched? I've never seen a man at work do all that youre asking of the woman.
Others in the firm, in an email in which no foul language was used. And yes it was unpleasant- but it was a LONG way off from being abusive.
internally. She kept it within the firm. They didnt. Shes a team player. You lose a match- you put up a brave face and you go back home and watch game film and figure out who is messing up and why. The folks who tried to cancel her for "toxicity"- they made the firm look bad. twice. first because they messed up, second because they put this stuff online.
The clients probably have no idea what has happened, this error won't affect the case. Berating is berating, be it in front of clients (much worse because you're literally throwing away junior associates under the bus and stepping away from accountability as the lead partner and head of practice; OR be it in front of other associates and partners in the team (look what happened with the leak). Accept the mistake, move on but stop hate mongering against the juniors. In fact, why are we even assuming that the contents of the email are a FACT as is, they are contested at best.
she didnt berate. She set them right, told them their behaviour was being noticed, and that the error had made the firm and her look bad and that this was a failure. She didnt put the email on the internet. The associates did that- to humiliate her. Shes supposed to be kind and mothering and nice- and shes supposed to take the blame for their eff up. She failed this by writing an email addressed to people in the team and the associates where she told them what was what. But they have a free reign no? to cancel her with a mob online? to shirk responsibility for their eff up?
Are people truly happy being a partner or just that being a law firm partner is their entire personality and anything that affects their own image they have in their head causes them to react harshly to it
It’s totally Gen Z’s fault. This generation is single-handedly responsible for the culture of grade inflation in law schools, which makes them lazy and entitled. In every law school now 80% of the class gets either the highest grade or second-highest grade. That’s just ridiculous. Teachers give in because they fear negative teacher feedback if they don’t comply. The other problem is wokeness. Instead of learning how to draft and contract, they are busy learning courses on intersectionality, which are easy to get high grades in and have no application in the real world.
Grade Inflation - as someone in an NLU that has hardass profs I really want to laugh. If we do not follow arbitrarily set answer keys for open ended questions, we lose 20-30 marks as it is.
The argument alternatively could be made that your generation was just plain and simple incompetent that you couldn't get a few measly marks.
See how that sounds? There's no statistical reasoning or empirical study backing up such claims, only frustration at a culture clash. Your generation had to grow up in an environment that was toxic and full of 'yes sirs', so you passed on what you knew, plus a lot of laziness - not with respect to your own work, but to the responsibility you owe to those below you in the hierarchy. Most of us see partners and PAs point blank rude to us before we even get to utter one word - I've legitimately had this happen in two T1 internships. And this general rudeness and toxicity is what is driving away a lot of the Gen Z from this profession.
The point is, I'm not blaming your competence of the work you've done to rise to your level - there would be no clients and connections after a while if you can't get the job done. Just try and put yourself in our shoes once in a while, that's all most of us can ask. If we mess up, which we will at some point, we want clear instructions and some actual feedback. Most of us know what we signed up for, but we still do grumble in the comfort of our own privacy, because it is our right to grumble. We may grumble but we make damn sure that the work is done properly because there are barely any second chances in this oversaturated market.
Since none of my own comments are backed up empirically, these are my own two cents. I hope none of this is taken in the wrong spirit because lord knows I'm not without my many flaws.
"Arbitrarily set answer keys" - you mean the answer that the teacher believes to be true and has mentioned accordingly in class, as opposed to you thinking that what you know about the subject being the real truth. If you cannot follow instructions given in class, then you don't learn to follow instructions at work. Which is more often than not the reason why you mess up.
We've had non-subject matter experts teach us regularly, some even who've never seen the basic bare acts of Companies Act, let alone alone IBC. They regularly teach outdated case laws and expect us to memorise everything when regular usage of bare acts exists even in corporates. Half of the answers in the keys make no sense, and just to make sure we weren't going crazy, had those cross checked by an actual practitioner. Bold of you to assume we don't follow instructions in class when everything they say is either vague or just plain wrong. The comment above yours tried to remain civil, but clearly you have no such qualms
Clearly you can't read. Who memorises bare acts for open book exams? Again, people who can't follow instructions. You people keep questioning the ability of others without having any clue about such ability yourself.
It's unfortunate that someone had such a deep impact. I also know the person who posted this comment personally and she quit law after working with them. I know the men in question both socially and through business, and they'll pretty chill and actually very sensible people in real life. Unfortunately, that's not how they WISH to run the team. I also know they treat people differently on the basis of their designation and other partners on the basis of the business they're able to whip up. You should see how they treated CAM funds partner. Even more, YB (partner) from their own team!! So that's truly just who they are. To put it in simple terms, they don't give a fuck.
Second of all, a lot of you like to imagine that we'll "retire". I hate to break it to you but we won't go anywhere anytime soon. Say for instance, AJ & GR both have young kids studying in elite bombay schools. Both kids are less than 8 years of age. We intend on providing our kids with best of this elite education now and in the future (sweating funds for college). We'll stick around in law firms for as long as our health allows us. We need the money much more. Both wives of these men have taken on more relaxed roles professionally since bringing in their child.
Talking about behaviour and toxicity, you have to understand. We are people. Hamari zyada fatti hai. Client ke saamne hamara naam hai. Any mistake, and we are more so legally responsible than juniors in the team. Obviously the stress is too much. The saying of lawyers in T1 drink, smoke and party hard so much is to keep up with the stress is true.
Yes, we've also gone through similar conditioning. At our time, the favouritism was insane. The Shroffs would literally destroy your career if they didn't like you. NLU preference was a real thing. Back then track to partnership was in 8 years.
But tbh, hamari zyada gaand fatti hai. If we don't discipline you in the way we know how or learned, God knows what will happen to the work product. But none of that matters tumhare bonus ka share toh kaatenge hi ;) I know AJ & GR cut A0s bonuses. Yes, they're a little too much. A lot actually. But hey, that's the game. They struggled through their days and made it. Fair to say the competition and politics was lesser as now there are just too many young lawyers from too many colleges aspiring to make it here. Hate the game, not the players. Let me also say this, partner vohi banega Jo hume pasand hai. Your "work product" will not take you as far as you think ;)
I am the one who asked the question. Don't understand why this is marked "trollish". Seems genuine and fair enough to me. Thanks for the response. The world is not fair, don't have such expectations.
Those of us in academia would have told you this is coming from pandemic batches. They barely know anything and got through law school by bullying teachers and claiming oppression. It would be better for firms to not hire from NLUs for a while.
And really - just fire them if the behaviour doesn’t stop. Teachers can’t fire them and they’re expecting the same thing from you. Don’t give in. Hold the line.
I saw that email but that lady at that firm. It was clearly written in frustration , but hardly so objectionable or so horrible as to require social media trial. These kids are just cry bullies.
Don't claim yourself as representative of academics. I have seen that email and I don't think it's acceptable behaviour that befits a leader, despite me being from academia myself.
You just started a sentence with "Those of us in academics". If that's not a representative claim according to you, then you probably should reconsider your decision to be in academia.
These pre-pandemic peeps need to catch up with us. I don't think you can berate the younger lot but also reply on their youth, vulnerability and capacity to tolerate abuse in order to sustain an obviously dysfunctional corporate partnership culture of tier 1s.
You say the younger lot but you also rely on the invention of younger lot i.e. technology, AI, legal research platforms, whatsapp (cases can not be file using the forum, validity of this app is I'm depth spoken about in courts), manupatra, ssc, etc.
Imagine another scenario- senior professionals getting fired. YOU have to catch up with the times and culture. You CANNOT pass snide comments and oppress us into submitting to an abusive boss. If something is not ok in this day and age, stop being lazy, understand the reasoning and change and improve.
I would love to see your kids/ younger loved ones go through the same culture, Sir. 🥰
Certainly wasn't invented by these idealogies of shaming and exploring the youth and still being ungrateful if it doesn't suck up to their ass. It was invented by people who thought outside he box ,weren't ok with the norms and made the change. If the older generation finds it too difficult to work with the youth, they can gladly retire or move on to a role that doesn't require interaction with them. It's ridiculous to shame the younger generation and yet be depending on them for keeping rh capitalist system going.
or it was invented by people who worked freaking hard to do some good to the world instead of sitting around blaming everyone else and playing the victim. Get a clue.
or they can just fire yall and hire from other law schools. just saying. They have no obligation to retire or move on from a firm they have built because you guys will not learn.
criticism isnt automatically abuse because you dont like it. Everyone messes up at work and everyone gets called out for it. Be an adult and take it on the chin.
Millenials invented ALL of the stuff youre claiming. Post pandemic Genz hasnt invented anything except pronouns and labels and hundreds of new ways to claim oppression.
there was nothing unprofessional in that email bro. It was unpleasant- but not unprofessional at all.
I dont know the lady who sent the email and its not me either. The fact that youd resort to that sort of juvenile nonsense tells me youre not worth engaging with.
I simply don't get it. No one compels you to go work a law firm. You make that choice. Both lit and transactional work tend to be time bound. maybe not always, but a lot of times. There are deadlines that HAVE to be met. You have to put in the hours to get the work done. And if you expect to be paid 18-22 lakhs per year, you NEED TO ALSO be able to pull your f*****g weight. A law firm is running a business at the end of the day. Its not charity.
In the same breath, toxic behaviour is not okay. But the words / terms like toxicity and mental health get thrown around soooooo loosely now, that when people who actually face genuine issues look like they're crying wolf.
It’s a culture clash. Lot of things which were acceptable 10 years back are not acceptable today. It’s fine. Boss junior relations is the new frontier of the clash. You either evolve to bring in better standards or you die.
Baaki saara credit apne G mai bharlo. 🙏🏻
You don't want others to be rude and sarcastic but want a free pass to be rude, disrespectful, sarcastic, bitchy, gossipy and whiney.
You want to WFH all the time when in reality you are just lollygagging around in your jammies watching reels on social media and thinking of new ideas for your social media posts and attempts at getting two minutes of fame.
You want all of the glory but none of the hardwork.
You want all the money but none of the responsibility.
You want it all.
You want. You want. You want. You want.
But let's come to what's not factual- Partners these days do not have the time or patience to tech juniors. The reasoning for this may be bad targets from the ultimate boss or just incompetence to manage or lead, but the truth is quite clear- a whole generation cannot be incompetent. Almost every junior facing issues in the team with their boss or senior highlights bad, incomplete or incorrect instructions.
Partners- learn to communicate better. None of you have had management training, we understand, but that's no reason to shit on juniors when they turn in the work according to the instructions they received and interpreted.
Understand the wavelength of the junior and give them instructions accordingly, and also align your expectations.
If you expect them to think 10 steps ahead, atleast show them the first 3. Atleast teach them how to think better and optimise their commercial understanding.
You Partners who do not communicate are the problem. Pick up a management book and become better.
Start with accepting you need to improve/evolve, instead of blaming it on Gen X, Y, Z whatever.
Your team is a jail. We all are praying for your downfall, you miserable crow. Ofcourse, #notallpartners. But yeah, definitely you.
Blaming only the junior (first level) associates without fixing responsibility with the PA/ junior partner reflects shabbily on the practice head/ senior partner
Others in the firm, in an email in which no foul language was used. And yes it was unpleasant- but it was a LONG way off from being abusive.
The argument alternatively could be made that your generation was just plain and simple incompetent that you couldn't get a few measly marks.
See how that sounds? There's no statistical reasoning or empirical study backing up such claims, only frustration at a culture clash. Your generation had to grow up in an environment that was toxic and full of 'yes sirs', so you passed on what you knew, plus a lot of laziness - not with respect to your own work, but to the responsibility you owe to those below you in the hierarchy. Most of us see partners and PAs point blank rude to us before we even get to utter one word - I've legitimately had this happen in two T1 internships. And this general rudeness and toxicity is what is driving away a lot of the Gen Z from this profession.
The point is, I'm not blaming your competence of the work you've done to rise to your level - there would be no clients and connections after a while if you can't get the job done. Just try and put yourself in our shoes once in a while, that's all most of us can ask. If we mess up, which we will at some point, we want clear instructions and some actual feedback. Most of us know what we signed up for, but we still do grumble in the comfort of our own privacy, because it is our right to grumble. We may grumble but we make damn sure that the work is done properly because there are barely any second chances in this oversaturated market.
Since none of my own comments are backed up empirically, these are my own two cents. I hope none of this is taken in the wrong spirit because lord knows I'm not without my many flaws.
It was marked contested later. But he is not the first person to be saying such things.
Second of all, a lot of you like to imagine that we'll "retire". I hate to break it to you but we won't go anywhere anytime soon. Say for instance, AJ & GR both have young kids studying in elite bombay schools. Both kids are less than 8 years of age. We intend on providing our kids with best of this elite education now and in the future (sweating funds for college). We'll stick around in law firms for as long as our health allows us. We need the money much more. Both wives of these men have taken on more relaxed roles professionally since bringing in their child.
Talking about behaviour and toxicity, you have to understand. We are people. Hamari zyada fatti hai. Client ke saamne hamara naam hai. Any mistake, and we are more so legally responsible than juniors in the team. Obviously the stress is too much. The saying of lawyers in T1 drink, smoke and party hard so much is to keep up with the stress is true.
Yes, we've also gone through similar conditioning. At our time, the favouritism was insane. The Shroffs would literally destroy your career if they didn't like you. NLU preference was a real thing. Back then track to partnership was in 8 years.
But tbh, hamari zyada gaand fatti hai. If we don't discipline you in the way we know how or learned, God knows what will happen to the work product. But none of that matters tumhare bonus ka share toh kaatenge hi ;) I know AJ & GR cut A0s bonuses. Yes, they're a little too much. A lot actually. But hey, that's the game. They struggled through their days and made it. Fair to say the competition and politics was lesser as now there are just too many young lawyers from too many colleges aspiring to make it here. Hate the game, not the players. Let me also say this, partner vohi banega Jo hume pasand hai. Your "work product" will not take you as far as you think ;)
And really - just fire them if the behaviour doesn’t stop. Teachers can’t fire them and they’re expecting the same thing from you. Don’t give in. Hold the line.
I saw that email but that lady at that firm. It was clearly written in frustration , but hardly so objectionable or so horrible as to require social media trial. These kids are just cry bullies.
You say the younger lot but you also rely on the invention of younger lot i.e. technology, AI, legal research platforms, whatsapp (cases can not be file using the forum, validity of this app is I'm depth spoken about in courts), manupatra, ssc, etc.
Imagine another scenario- senior professionals getting fired. YOU have to catch up with the times and culture. You CANNOT pass snide comments and oppress us into submitting to an abusive boss. If something is not ok in this day and age, stop being lazy, understand the reasoning and change and improve.
I would love to see your kids/ younger loved ones go through the same culture, Sir. 🥰
Millenials invented ALL of the stuff youre claiming. Post pandemic Genz hasnt invented anything except pronouns and labels and hundreds of new ways to claim oppression.
Otherwise you're just being a "snowflake" cry-baby throwing a hissy-fit because you/ your aakaa "got called out" on bad behaviour.
I dont know the lady who sent the email and its not me either. The fact that youd resort to that sort of juvenile nonsense tells me youre not worth engaging with.
In the same breath, toxic behaviour is not okay. But the words / terms like toxicity and mental health get thrown around soooooo loosely now, that when people who actually face genuine issues look like they're crying wolf.
Cry babies need to get their shit together.