Hey OP - honest question. Since from your post you seem ~ 7/8 pqe, which means about a PA, how much of this you've implemented for your own juniors, the guys who report to you? And what were the actual challenges you faced and how you managed? And do give more recent examples since whatever you have mentioned above is more close to what an A0 or A1 will do and get away but the world would be different for an PA. Not to troll you but want to exchange notes.
Everyone should do more than bare minimum. What is bare minimum anyway. If you are paid for it, do what is expected. Don’t kill yourself. But nothing wrong in trying to do the best.
On the 10 pm rule and weekend rule, it’s a good rule. But if you see an email from a client on Saturday morning saying they need an asap turn around over the weekend and you push back, you are not doing what’s expected.
But otherwise if it’s not urgent or there is no client pressure, no need to force yourself to work over the weekend.
Y u al tink ppl dont get fyrd in law firms? Maybe so cald T1s dont fyre. Otherwise in several placs if der is lack of perfmnce or commtmnt, d boot is inevitable. Sum ppl seem 2 b livng in La La Land
I get paid a bit more than what I was getting paid at my previous firm (Tier 1). There are multiple factors in play here. One of the reasons that was possible is probably because my level (I’m around 5 years PQE). At a more senior level perhaps it would’ve been harder to find comparable pay because salary progression at firms is more. Instead of MNCs try to look for growth stage start ups. Their salaries are attractive and you can make a lot of you negotiate ESOPs early on.
It really comes down to what you want from your life ultimately. Working inhouse, money progression will not be able to match a Tier 1. But working at a Tier 1 will rob you off any time to enjoy the money you make, it’ll take away mental peace, and precious time with family/your partner. I’m sure you know the drill - take your pick.
I dont want to be staffed on big matters. I dont care, you may think they're glamorous. But you're just fighting for a comma in an SSPA.
I dont care about lifeless sods bitching about me. Im getting my money in the bank. I wanted a decent life, but they want to kill my work life balance, i.e. My healtb, mental health, relationships, sex life, hobbies. I don't care mate.
Promotions only mean more responsibilities. But im okay with promotions on a slower pace or none at all. Partner ka khud life nahi hota.
I have a fairly great reputation, amongst my peers, my firm and the larger world and client and society. I engage with them often. I know some partners deliberately sully reputation, but why do they think it doesn't have equal and infact worse consequences for them? Hahaha, you're out of the loop, we have a list of such partners and bosses who deliberately fuck around and bad mouth.
Re Holidays and all, im AWOL usually. Catch me if you can is my mantra on holidays.
It may affect appraisals in the short term yes. If you fear appraisals like this then boss we're back to square one. Everyone or a majority should do this.
Let the heroes be heroes, let those enthu heroes carry the weight of the team. Why degrade your life, body, health, mental health for some imaginary brownie points which will expire within the week.
Ultimately, you're gonna earn a lot of money, now it's okay if the enthu cutlet earns 5lpa more, but his life is shit, he is a boring person.
If you live in this mental space all the time, you're just going back to square one in a rat race.
Partner's lives are also such shit, i have seen handful of partner's actually having a life outside of work. Netflix doesn't count.
Fyi. Its happening, it's just that it's slow, but it's happening in my anecdotal experience. I mean I quit to go in-house. I know 6 (not exaggerating) people who quit recently to go in-house or shift firms.
I don't think OP is thinking of not working in a law firm..OP is going to exploit the law firms, like how we all have been exploited by law firms and partners.
My gluteus maximus is more sympathetic. Kuch bhi, they're the worst. Usually (the current generation) are first bench nerds with no social skills other than screaming, and nerding out with no actual understanding of business or ability to generate business without the brand name of the firm.
As a PA, I am telling you that this works. If you do this, you will gradually get lesser work and you will not technically be kicked out of the job. Unless the market becomes really bad - for record, the market has never been that bad.
But, these will be the impact of such behaviour:
a. You will not be staffed on big / well known matters (unless its a matter of last resort) b. Your seniors will bitch about you and you will become a topic of conversion for them (in and outside of office) c. Your bonuses will suffer. You will get 30 - 60% lesser bonus than a hard working peer. d. You will not be promoted on time. But if you stick around, you will eventually get promoted. (Have seen it happen numerous times). e. You will be bereted (directly or indirectly) a lot. If you have a thin skin, it will hurt like hell. f. You will only get false deadlines, and therefore, every deadline will feel super tight, even if you are delaying them. g. People will still try to ruin your holidays, offs and late hours by piling on urgent but simple work like proofing and dragging you on to calls. Even if you delay or do a bad job. This will be done purely to allow the senior take out some frustration on you. h. You will definitely ruin your reputation. This is the worst hit. Once your reputation is ruined, you can't easily earn it back by being a better worker. Once an impression is developed, it is nearly impossible to break out of it.
I am not saying that the OP's strategy is bad. If you want work life balance, and time for yourself - this is a way to achieve it. A better way to achieve it is to join a smaller law firm with lesser work.
Everything has a cost. For this strategy, the cost is little bit of money (~15% of your annual takeaway), and self respect.
The two people who have downvoted this - you must be clinically insane.
OP - I spend more time on this forum than I’d like to admit. It’s a matter of habit. I haven’t come across a more relevant and on point post. I’m out of the shit circus but if I was still in it, I’d feel inspired. I hope others who have stuck around follow each of your stellar recommendations but I’m worried that with time the system will deflate them (like it deflated me). Still hopeful though!
Its very important that associates now start pushing back against unreasonable bosses, unreasonable demands and unreasonable hours.
Willing slaves, this post is not for you, nor is this post for toothless HR and nor is it for enthu partners with 0 life / slave driving MPs.
Here it goes. Basic ground rule to understand, you're not gonna get fired for doing any of the below activities, based on my experience. Do the bare minimum, as these bosses do not care about you beyond the bare minimum. Stop chasing so called "excellence", your bosses are mediocre as hell.
(a) Guys, you should learn to push back and not answer calls and whatsapp messages on your phone after 10pm (I know, the standards are pretty low.). You may make an exception, if execution date is in the next 4 days.
(b) Start pushing back on work to be done on weekends. If they give you no choice, submit it late Monday or Tuesday, they're not gonna fire you. They don't have resources.
(c) Name and shame toxic partners, and mid level minions. You have a responsibility towards your friends, and even enemies, to warn them and to prevent them from joining teams of toxic and unreasonable bosses and partners.
I have tons to speak on this, but keeping it short. Toxic bosses who have temper issues, are disrespectful, have no empathy, are lazy to train but expect the Taj Mahal have no place in the system. If you want associates to improve their work and work on it, it behoves you to work on your mental health issues before you lash out on your juniors, who are in a sense your colleagues and apprentices.
There are some partners who are known to be toxic, actively do your due diligence, and do not join their teams. They can do far more damage to your career and self esteem than you can imagine. Law firms keep them around because they mistakenly think that they are productive. Toxic Partner teams are the worst performing teams. Such partners do shady things to make them look efficient (cutting associate hours heavily, etc), my best friend's team in a T1 is such a team. We have been exchanging work notes for the past 7+ years. I have moved teams, he has been in the same team since his PPO.
(d) Push back on a deadline if there is no real urgency. If you have been given an unreasonable deadline say EOD for a document where there is no real necessary deadline, communicate and push back, if they don't relent, delay delay delay.
Remember, partners do not have your best interests in mind. They care about you bare minimum. Do the bare minimum, but with diligence. Push back wherever and everywhere, where there is room to. The more you comply, the more they press you. Its a toxic relationship, and toxic relationships only get worse with time, there is no getting better.
(e) Remember, HRs are usually toothless and have no will and power to act or even at bare minimum suggest correction to errant partners. So whatever falana dhimkana pompous policies exist or words they use, be realistic and careful to remember that they protect partners not, you. Once in a while its good to tell HR though, so that it remains on record that partners are errant. Especially ones with very high attrition teams.
Everyone should do more than bare minimum. What is bare minimum anyway. If you are paid for it, do what is expected. Don’t kill yourself. But nothing wrong in trying to do the best.
On the 10 pm rule and weekend rule, it’s a good rule. But if you see an email from a client on Saturday morning saying they need an asap turn around over the weekend and you push back, you are not doing what’s expected.
But otherwise if it’s not urgent or there is no client pressure, no need to force yourself to work over the weekend.
It really comes down to what you want from your life ultimately. Working inhouse, money progression will not be able to match a Tier 1. But working at a Tier 1 will rob you off any time to enjoy the money you make, it’ll take away mental peace, and precious time with family/your partner. I’m sure you know the drill - take your pick.
I dont care about lifeless sods bitching about me. Im getting my money in the bank. I wanted a decent life, but they want to kill my work life balance, i.e. My healtb, mental health, relationships, sex life, hobbies. I don't care mate.
Promotions only mean more responsibilities. But im okay with promotions on a slower pace or none at all. Partner ka khud life nahi hota.
I have a fairly great reputation, amongst my peers, my firm and the larger world and client and society. I engage with them often. I know some partners deliberately sully reputation, but why do they think it doesn't have equal and infact worse consequences for them? Hahaha, you're out of the loop, we have a list of such partners and bosses who deliberately fuck around and bad mouth.
Re Holidays and all, im AWOL usually. Catch me if you can is my mantra on holidays.
Let the heroes be heroes, let those enthu heroes carry the weight of the team. Why degrade your life, body, health, mental health for some imaginary brownie points which will expire within the week.
Ultimately, you're gonna earn a lot of money, now it's okay if the enthu cutlet earns 5lpa more, but his life is shit, he is a boring person.
If you live in this mental space all the time, you're just going back to square one in a rat race.
Partner's lives are also such shit, i have seen handful of partner's actually having a life outside of work. Netflix doesn't count.
But, these will be the impact of such behaviour:
a. You will not be staffed on big / well known matters (unless its a matter of last resort)
b. Your seniors will bitch about you and you will become a topic of conversion for them (in and outside of office)
c. Your bonuses will suffer. You will get 30 - 60% lesser bonus than a hard working peer.
d. You will not be promoted on time. But if you stick around, you will eventually get promoted. (Have seen it happen numerous times).
e. You will be bereted (directly or indirectly) a lot. If you have a thin skin, it will hurt like hell.
f. You will only get false deadlines, and therefore, every deadline will feel super tight, even if you are delaying them.
g. People will still try to ruin your holidays, offs and late hours by piling on urgent but simple work like proofing and dragging you on to calls. Even if you delay or do a bad job. This will be done purely to allow the senior take out some frustration on you.
h. You will definitely ruin your reputation. This is the worst hit. Once your reputation is ruined, you can't easily earn it back by being a better worker. Once an impression is developed, it is nearly impossible to break out of it.
I am not saying that the OP's strategy is bad. If you want work life balance, and time for yourself - this is a way to achieve it. A better way to achieve it is to join a smaller law firm with lesser work.
Everything has a cost. For this strategy, the cost is little bit of money (~15% of your annual takeaway), and self respect.
You do you!
I have been looking at inhouses but compensation (post tax)/growth is not at all even close (atleast the ones I have looked at).
OP - I spend more time on this forum than I’d like to admit. It’s a matter of habit. I haven’t come across a more relevant and on point post. I’m out of the shit circus but if I was still in it, I’d feel inspired. I hope others who have stuck around follow each of your stellar recommendations but I’m worried that with time the system will deflate them (like it deflated me). Still hopeful though!
Willing slaves, this post is not for you, nor is this post for toothless HR and nor is it for enthu partners with 0 life / slave driving MPs.
Here it goes. Basic ground rule to understand, you're not gonna get fired for doing any of the below activities, based on my experience. Do the bare minimum, as these bosses do not care about you beyond the bare minimum. Stop chasing so called "excellence", your bosses are mediocre as hell.
(a) Guys, you should learn to push back and not answer calls and whatsapp messages on your phone after 10pm (I know, the standards are pretty low.). You may make an exception, if execution date is in the next 4 days.
(b) Start pushing back on work to be done on weekends. If they give you no choice, submit it late Monday or Tuesday, they're not gonna fire you. They don't have resources.
(c) Name and shame toxic partners, and mid level minions. You have a responsibility towards your friends, and even enemies, to warn them and to prevent them from joining teams of toxic and unreasonable bosses and partners.
I have tons to speak on this, but keeping it short. Toxic bosses who have temper issues, are disrespectful, have no empathy, are lazy to train but expect the Taj Mahal have no place in the system. If you want associates to improve their work and work on it, it behoves you to work on your mental health issues before you lash out on your juniors, who are in a sense your colleagues and apprentices.
There are some partners who are known to be toxic, actively do your due diligence, and do not join their teams. They can do far more damage to your career and self esteem than you can imagine. Law firms keep them around because they mistakenly think that they are productive. Toxic Partner teams are the worst performing teams. Such partners do shady things to make them look efficient (cutting associate hours heavily, etc), my best friend's team in a T1 is such a team. We have been exchanging work notes for the past 7+ years. I have moved teams, he has been in the same team since his PPO.
(d) Push back on a deadline if there is no real urgency. If you have been given an unreasonable deadline say EOD for a document where there is no real necessary deadline, communicate and push back, if they don't relent, delay delay delay.
Remember, partners do not have your best interests in mind. They care about you bare minimum. Do the bare minimum, but with diligence. Push back wherever and everywhere, where there is room to. The more you comply, the more they press you. Its a toxic relationship, and toxic relationships only get worse with time, there is no getting better.
(e) Remember, HRs are usually toothless and have no will and power to act or even at bare minimum suggest correction to errant partners. So whatever falana dhimkana pompous policies exist or words they use, be realistic and careful to remember that they protect partners not, you. Once in a while its good to tell HR though, so that it remains on record that partners are errant. Especially ones with very high attrition teams.