Sorry, the real question is, 'Do chamber juniors get paid?'
Juniors draft, research, run around for compliances, at times serve as literal secretaries doing reminding and stuff. All for nothing. Instead, when something goes downhill, these seniors have the audacity to be seething at you. Judges don't say a whisper to seniors, who are always on record, but dress down the juniors appearing.
Juniors sell their soul and dreams, seniors sit pretty.
I got 10K PM and that too I got after begging my senior (Reminding him about the salary) every month. And in return of that 10K I had to give my soul, mental health, peace, to the Senior. I used to cry literally daily because of the pressure and Toxicity. I ruined my Physical and Mental health for that 10K , not to forget that the 10K I used to get, went into travelling to firm and Courts only. So yea practically I got nothing. Plus the fact that I had to visit almost 3-4 District courts daily. I was literally robbed off my mental health and peace. The fact remains that the Lawyer is a well known Lawyer in Few Discrict Courts of Delhi. Those 6 months were literally the worst 6 months of my Life.
Just enough for juniors from financially stable backgrounds to be told by their folks that the domestic helps, car drivers, and other support staff outearn them as professionals. Just enough for people from financially not-so-stable backgrounds to reconsider the utility of their degree, when they are not able to support their families after graduation.
Looking at the annual income may not be a good indicator, as sometimes there are some windfall gains. Also, sometimes you get paid only when the case resolves (so, didn't get paid anything for a year in a case, then got the entire fee). Stuff like this can skew the image. That being said, it would be around 8-10LPA.
Clients you get only through networking and delivering results to your clients. I have had clients refer me more work because they were happy with what I did. I have also had other lawyers refer work to me because they knew I work in a particular field of law.
These are questions to first/also ask your college management whom your parents paid large fees to prepare you for your career. Truth is, most students come out of college without any real knowledge. Most graduates don't even know where the courts are, what the fundamentals of civil and criminal procedures, or how to listen and speak to clients. How will you add value to the chamber you want to work in?
For whatever it is worth, I can tell you that Gopal Sankaranarayan Sir is a decent paymaster. I was given 12,500 for a 4 week internship and I know that his juniors get between 50000 and 1.25 lakh depending on their experience. I don't know whether it is a conscious decision to promote women, but after having male juniors in the past, he now has 5 or 6 women juniors. There are such a variety of seniors and such different work styles that it is difficult to pin down what is best. His office worked 5 and a half days a week from 9:30 to 9:30 and he was always polite and helpful, but the interactions were mainly with the juniors.
Graduated from a NLU and started working with dispute resolution team in a Tier I law firm in 2017. Left in 2018 and joined an independent advocate who practiced civil commercial law. Got paid 20K initially. After about 6 months, salary was increased to 25K. It stayed the same for next 1 year. Left the office to join another advocate after 1.5 years of joining. The advocate I left was very nice and paid about 50K bonus before I left to join a new office.
In the new office, started at about 35K which increased to 45K after about 6 months of working. Worked there for about 1.5 years before joining a senior who pays about 75K. Have never gotten a Diwali bonus. Allowed to take independent work as long as it does not affect the office’s work.
Litigators ko Inhi logon se satark rehna hai jo 'craft aur knowledge' ka dhong rachke juniors ko thagg lete hai aur unhe exploit karte hai. You get my point?
Can we please move on from the Rao's, Dewan's, Sibal's everytime someone asks about Chambers in Delhi that pay well and have good work?
Not meant as a dig on those seniors, but due to the nature of their Chambers, they take on considerably few juniors at once and attrition is very low (compared to T1s).
It would be great if people can move beyond the popular and oft repeated names in the public domain and recommend Chambers and Independent Counsels, even if they might not be as well known as these gents.
The past was grotesquely poor because most lived as peasants on scraps of land. The peasant lifestyle on a scrap of land is a poor one because the value of output from peasant farming on scraps of land is low
Certain designated Senior Advocates are rather good paymasters. A former ASG pays starting of 40k to juniors with no experience. Within 2 year 65k. 1 lakh bonus every year plus Diwali bonus additionally. Senior most chamber junior earns close to 3L per month. Plus all meals in office taken care of.
What you're saying is mostly true. It is difficult to get clients who would pay. And not just for the first 10 years; I know people with far more experience whose clients try to get away without paying.
I'd say for the first couple of years, don't expect any earnings at all. Do pro bono work, get noticed, get exposure. Plus, if you do well and make that client happy, he may refer more clients to you (whom you can charge). It's about building a network, really.
And yes, in 90% of cases, the only fees you'll actually get is what you grab before the case. So, if it's a bail application, don't expect anything after the hearing (if bail is granted, he has no incentive to pay you; if bail is denied, he would not want to pay you).
You will have to write a lot of them off, yes. As a tip (backed by my personal experience, more senior lawyers can probably correct me) - make sure those "bad debts" are also worth it. Either the case is good, gets you some limelight (and thus, potential future clients) or you're able to build a long-term relationship with that client in lieu of waiving the fee off.
Please be clear about the financials before you plan to join a litigating lawyer or going independent. It would be a very tough decision to make, having done it myself in the last year. The journey would may be an ordeal if you are pressed for money. If you are the sole or one of two earners in your family, please ponder over the idea very carefully. The road ahead needs to be taken after weighing all considerations.
Of course, there is no intention to demoralise anyone, but the figures being quoted to seniors income are not really representative of an average litigating lawyer. The competition is cut throat and the MNCs do not really come to you. They would instead spend a bomb on a senior since a general counsel is made ccountable to the top management.
Lastly, there is nothing right or wrong; in a cosmopolitan city, where a bare survival alone needs 25, just chose your options financially. This is because all those claiming to get independent matters do so only after the first two to three years. Not every gets lucky right away and mind you, your senior's matters/briefs will take precedence over your matter.
Note: be game to forget personal and family life for the time you work with a senior. Since there is no leave policy as such, sacrificing personal space and time should be very okay to you.
I currently work in the GC practice at a tier-1 law firm. I have made up my mind to leave and start practicing. However, reading this chain, I feel like it does not make sense for a middle-class lawyer to start working at chambers especially in Mumbai where the rent is no less than 25k for a single room. This post has made me anxious and I am now back to my starting point on deciding what the next stage of my legal career should be.
My question is - would it be a smarter decision to work in a boutique litigation firm instead of approaching senior advocates as I do not want to live in a house for destitutes with a 'salary' as less as 5k/month? I am from a top NLU. Would that help in any way? I have also heard horror stories of blatant sexism in litigation/ client interactions/ briefings/ salary disparity. Not sure if I'm mentally strong to handle that yet.
I would really appreciate a (detailed, if possible) answer to my question - as I have no insight on which firms to approach. Thank you in advance!
Thank you for this detailed reply. I've heard that it's very difficult though, for those who're not established (say a decade in practice atleast) to get paid by clients who do brief you.
Alot of bad debts and in general it's a miracle to get your fees paid almost entirely. How true would you say is this?
Everyone is saying that they draw a salary and then they also take their own clients, but what amount does a new lawyer charge to a client? Anyone who can provide numbers? e.g. per appearance, per client total, I get it that it varies but there must a range for a new grad?
First of all, let me thank you for writing such detailed answers!! Such insights are of great help to a lot of people and are honestly rare to come by!
If possible, could you also touch upon the following:
1. Clarification: Do you mean 5-6 years PGE or these many years with the said senior?
2. Would you recommend joining a senior like yours (going to be designated in some time / just designated) over a slightly older/more established senior or even a legit A-list senior?
3. One of the career paths that is often suggested to young aspiring litigants (esp first gen) is: Litigation team at good firm (2-3 years) -> LLM (if they want) -> junior filing chamber -> senior chamber (say 3 years) -> independent
What are your thoughts on this?
Would be great if you could touch up on some of this
1. Was in a super-specialised practice in the firm (took out of peer pressure to get high pay ppo). The more time you spend in a specialised practice, it becomes difficult to move out, hence left as soon as my mind was made up. Also lit. rewards you for being good at your work (better clients, larger mandates, independent matters), whereas in a firm your progress is based on your graduation batch with little scope to leap ahead.
2. My senior supports going independent after 5-6 years, and does refer. This is the norm for seniors who are themselves aiming for a Senior Advocate designation - cultivating relationship with juniors helps them get clients to represent as an arguing counsel.
3. Firm is regimented in terms of the type of work you do (based on practice area), and your contribution to a matter is defined majorly by your work ex. (don't expect a lot of client-facing or heavy-lifting work till A3 level). In chamber, you get to lead on matters irrespective of your experience; the quality of your output defines the work your senior is comfortable trusting you with. In terms of direct legal exposure, chamber wins hands down. You would be drafting SLPs from day 1, being in front of judges (even if just to ask for a passover) whereas in firms (non-lit practice), this will come only at a junior partner level. However, chamber work is erratic, sometimes there's little work, sometimes a lot - although this is not a major concern given there are no billing targets. Aspects such as designated leaves, handover to teammates are also largely non-existent, and you work in silos so not a lot of scope for teamwork.
2018 batch - started at a monthly pay of 1lakh+ in a tier-1 law firm. Moved to a litigation chamber in 1 year (not getting into reasons as that's not the topic).
Got paid 25k, and a hike of 5k after 1 year. My chamber senior is a prominent litigator, has stellar, high-paying clients and a roaring practice for someone nearing 40s. The senior most person in the chamber gets about 65k after working for 5+ years, gets to take own clients (which involves longer working hours), and can bill the chamber clients separately too. The pay is exploitative, and abysmal considering there is absolutely no infra at work (own laptops, softwares), and you get nothing more than the retainer (so travel expenses, insurance and other such things go from the retainer). There's a general sense that chamber juniors come from well-off families, and should milk their family wealth.
Depends purely on the bargaining skills/position of you and the client. My friends who come from political families (etc.) and therefore have people who look up to them have a greater bargaining power with respect to those people.
But a lot of times you will have to do pro bono work to just get some recognition. But all that 'strategy' and all aside; you can take upto 1L for a writ petition. From some clients, it may be lower, say 50k-ish. Similarly for bails, think around 25-30k at district level; 50ish at HC. But again, all of this depends on how much faith your client has in you (which translates to how much they are willing to spend), and what background they come from.
My colleagues who have been taking independent cases for quite some time now charge around 2k per appearance - which in my opinion is too low. Personally I aim around 5k per appearance (+ drafting charges, etc.). At the same time, a friend has charged 25k to a client for drafting and arguing Or.1r.10 & Or.7r.11 applications (in other words, 25k for 2-3 hearings), and will take more if the trial proceeds. Again, it's about bargaining power.
The figures above apply mainly to A-list seniors in top cities. Otherwise the pay is Rs 5,000 a month plus the following perks:
- Complimentary meal plan: 2 rotis and a banana everyday, plus an ice cream bar every alternate Sundays. - Complimentary annual health plan: 12 paracetamol tablets annually, plus a strip of Pudin Hara - Annual vacation bonus: Return Uber taxi fare from residence to closest cinema hall, plus price of movie ticket for one (as litigation junior unlikely to have a girlfriend) - Annual executive education bonus: Jaswant Motor School course on autorickshaw driving (backup career option).
Unfortunately, no. A batchmate who joined another senior (designated alongwith Mr Rao recently) was only paid Rupees 15,000 at starting. He's still there but I don't know how much he makes now.
Mr Rao is also generous with bonuses etc. and the more he makes, the more you get.
The increase isn't fixed with Mr Rao. But put in effort, and your pay will increase. 25-30% minimum yearly, but this guy who worked there told me his pay increased in 8 months itself. I think you should try seeking out one of his current or recently-left juniors, most of them are a helpful bunch, no doubt in part due to Mr Rao's humble nature itself.
When I joined in 2019, I was being paid 20k a month. Got three bonuses of 20k, 30k, and 60k (2019-2020). Got a slightly delayed hike in September, 2020 to about 30k. Additionally, I also work with some of my seniors from law school and do some advisory and can have earned upto 20-30k above my salary in 2020-21
Most of the Chambers out here and in my knowledge in regional High Courts don't pay at all to the Juniors, irrespective of whether Senior is a designated senior or not, or whether he or she milks Crores monthly or not. However, like an oasis in a desert, a few chambers do pay and it ranges from 3K to 20K per month. There are hardly any experience-related criteria for increasing payment. Though no chamber disallows juniors to work independently and income from independent clients belongs solely to the juniors.
Started @ 15k, currently @ 25k. (mostly criminal trial work). I'm allowed to take up my own cases though, and all that fees is mine. And if I get cases for my senior, I am eligible for a generous (though not fixed) cut.
Batchmates who went to HC or SC instead of trial get slightly higher.
85 percent of litigation lawyers start off with less than 15k a month, with some being paid sub 5k for a month. With about 4 years pqe, it can reach a maximum of 35k.
He's not a designated senior, he's a regular advocate. The year I joined his chamber was a really bumper year for him financially, he made double what I mentioned.
How senior is your senior? 8-10cr a year is on lower side. I know a dozen senior advocates at Bombay High Court that make much more.
I'm curious what do top tier senior advocates charge per appearance in Bangalore? It's about 2-3 lakh per appearance in Bombay, briefing/settling/calls/OPE extra.
2018 grad here. I started off at 12k/month, currently drawing 24k/month. I'm allowed to take money from my clients directly, senior has no problem if it's a 1000 or a crore, it all depends on your ability to milk the client. However, his progeny who is a colleague also expects, and realises a cut of everything I collect.
Enough has been said and discussed on law firm salaries. But how much do juniors at chambers of advocates and senior advocates make? Bombay counsels are infamous for not paying their juniors even a single penny. The ones in Delhi do pay, but how much?
It is also interesting as per this report that at least a dozen senior counsels make over 1 crore a day. That makes for at least 200 crores a year (which is so much more than what any lawyer in the UK or US would make).
Juniors draft, research, run around for compliances, at times serve as literal secretaries doing reminding and stuff. All for nothing. Instead, when something goes downhill, these seniors have the audacity to be seething at you. Judges don't say a whisper to seniors, who are always on record, but dress down the juniors appearing.
Juniors sell their soul and dreams, seniors sit pretty.
Just few seniors in every HC who pay well. Forget payment in district courts !
FYI, Bombay pay system is rotten.
Clients you get only through networking and delivering results to your clients. I have had clients refer me more work because they were happy with what I did. I have also had other lawyers refer work to me because they knew I work in a particular field of law.
Cheers.
There are such a variety of seniors and such different work styles that it is difficult to pin down what is best. His office worked 5 and a half days a week from 9:30 to 9:30 and he was always polite and helpful, but the interactions were mainly with the juniors.
In the new office, started at about 35K which increased to 45K after about 6 months of working. Worked there for about 1.5 years before joining a senior who pays about 75K. Have never gotten a Diwali bonus. Allowed to take independent work as long as it does not affect the office’s work.
You get my point?
Practicing under SC lawyer - 20k salary.
working hours - 11 hours a day.
Exploitation at its best !!!
Not meant as a dig on those seniors, but due to the nature of their Chambers, they take on considerably few juniors at once and attrition is very low (compared to T1s).
It would be great if people can move beyond the popular and oft repeated names in the public domain and recommend Chambers and Independent Counsels, even if they might not be as well known as these gents.
I'll start - Abhijeet Sinha, Amit George, Shri Singh, Arshdeep Khurana
Quote:
Abhi ke naye ASG to 25k bhi ro roke dete hai
Learning how to bill a client is a skill in itself. Something to learn and hone with time.
If you have the skills, there is no limit to how lucrative a practice in court can be. Have some faith.
What you're saying is mostly true. It is difficult to get clients who would pay. And not just for the first 10 years; I know people with far more experience whose clients try to get away without paying.
I'd say for the first couple of years, don't expect any earnings at all. Do pro bono work, get noticed, get exposure. Plus, if you do well and make that client happy, he may refer more clients to you (whom you can charge). It's about building a network, really.
And yes, in 90% of cases, the only fees you'll actually get is what you grab before the case. So, if it's a bail application, don't expect anything after the hearing (if bail is granted, he has no incentive to pay you; if bail is denied, he would not want to pay you).
You will have to write a lot of them off, yes. As a tip (backed by my personal experience, more senior lawyers can probably correct me) - make sure those "bad debts" are also worth it. Either the case is good, gets you some limelight (and thus, potential future clients) or you're able to build a long-term relationship with that client in lieu of waiving the fee off.
Of course, there is no intention to demoralise anyone, but the figures being quoted to seniors income are not really representative of an average litigating lawyer. The competition is cut throat and the MNCs do not really come to you. They would instead spend a bomb on a senior since a general counsel is made ccountable to the top management.
Lastly, there is nothing right or wrong; in a cosmopolitan city, where a bare survival alone needs 25, just chose your options financially. This is because all those claiming to get independent matters do so only after the first two to three years. Not every gets lucky right away and mind you, your senior's matters/briefs will take precedence over your matter.
Note: be game to forget personal and family life for the time you work with a senior. Since there is no leave policy as such, sacrificing personal space and time should be very okay to you.
I currently work in the GC practice at a tier-1 law firm. I have made up my mind to leave and start practicing. However, reading this chain, I feel like it does not make sense for a middle-class lawyer to start working at chambers especially in Mumbai where the rent is no less than 25k for a single room. This post has made me anxious and I am now back to my starting point on deciding what the next stage of my legal career should be.
My question is - would it be a smarter decision to work in a boutique litigation firm instead of approaching senior advocates as I do not want to live in a house for destitutes with a 'salary' as less as 5k/month? I am from a top NLU. Would that help in any way? I have also heard horror stories of blatant sexism in litigation/ client interactions/ briefings/ salary disparity. Not sure if I'm mentally strong to handle that yet.
I would really appreciate a (detailed, if possible) answer to my question - as I have no insight on which firms to approach. Thank you in advance!
Alot of bad debts and in general it's a miracle to get your fees paid almost entirely. How true would you say is this?
Way to go guys
But I had another thing to add to OP
How much capital/savings do you think is needed to go independent in Delhi?
And how long is the general incubation period?
Thaaanks so much
If possible, could you also touch upon the following:
1. Clarification: Do you mean 5-6 years PGE or these many years with the said senior?
2. Would you recommend joining a senior like yours (going to be designated in some time / just designated) over a slightly older/more established senior or even a legit A-list senior?
3. One of the career paths that is often suggested to young aspiring litigants (esp first gen) is:
Litigation team at good firm (2-3 years) -> LLM (if they want) -> junior filing chamber -> senior chamber (say 3 years) -> independent
What are your thoughts on this?
Would be great if you could touch up on some of this
Thanks!
2. My senior supports going independent after 5-6 years, and does refer. This is the norm for seniors who are themselves aiming for a Senior Advocate designation - cultivating relationship with juniors helps them get clients to represent as an arguing counsel.
3. Firm is regimented in terms of the type of work you do (based on practice area), and your contribution to a matter is defined majorly by your work ex. (don't expect a lot of client-facing or heavy-lifting work till A3 level). In chamber, you get to lead on matters irrespective of your experience; the quality of your output defines the work your senior is comfortable trusting you with. In terms of direct legal exposure, chamber wins hands down. You would be drafting SLPs from day 1, being in front of judges (even if just to ask for a passover) whereas in firms (non-lit practice), this will come only at a junior partner level. However, chamber work is erratic, sometimes there's little work, sometimes a lot - although this is not a major concern given there are no billing targets. Aspects such as designated leaves, handover to teammates are also largely non-existent, and you work in silos so not a lot of scope for teamwork.
City - Delhi
I just had some other questions - unrelated to the larger thread - would be great id you could answer them:
1. Can you touch upon the reasons that made you leave the firm so soon?
2. Does your senior support juniors in other ways (eg when they go independent - with referrals)? / Is this the norm?
3. What’s the difference in work life / style between the chamber and your firm?
Can you clarify what city you’re from
While these aren’t related to the larger thread - I’m sure most readers will greatly appreciate such insights!
Got paid 25k, and a hike of 5k after 1 year. My chamber senior is a prominent litigator, has stellar, high-paying clients and a roaring practice for someone nearing 40s. The senior most person in the chamber gets about 65k after working for 5+ years, gets to take own clients (which involves longer working hours), and can bill the chamber clients separately too. The pay is exploitative, and abysmal considering there is absolutely no infra at work (own laptops, softwares), and you get nothing more than the retainer (so travel expenses, insurance and other such things go from the retainer). There's a general sense that chamber juniors come from well-off families, and should milk their family wealth.
But a lot of times you will have to do pro bono work to just get some recognition. But all that 'strategy' and all aside; you can take upto 1L for a writ petition. From some clients, it may be lower, say 50k-ish. Similarly for bails, think around 25-30k at district level; 50ish at HC. But again, all of this depends on how much faith your client has in you (which translates to how much they are willing to spend), and what background they come from.
My colleagues who have been taking independent cases for quite some time now charge around 2k per appearance - which in my opinion is too low. Personally I aim around 5k per appearance (+ drafting charges, etc.). At the same time, a friend has charged 25k to a client for drafting and arguing Or.1r.10 & Or.7r.11 applications (in other words, 25k for 2-3 hearings), and will take more if the trial proceeds. Again, it's about bargaining power.
Hope this helps.
- Complimentary meal plan: 2 rotis and a banana everyday, plus an ice cream bar every alternate Sundays.
- Complimentary annual health plan: 12 paracetamol tablets annually, plus a strip of Pudin Hara
- Annual vacation bonus: Return Uber taxi fare from residence to closest cinema hall, plus price of movie ticket for one (as litigation junior unlikely to have a girlfriend)
- Annual executive education bonus: Jaswant Motor School course on autorickshaw driving (backup career option).
Unfortunately, no. A batchmate who joined another senior (designated alongwith Mr Rao recently) was only paid Rupees 15,000 at starting. He's still there but I don't know how much he makes now.
Mr Rao is also generous with bonuses etc. and the more he makes, the more you get.
The increase isn't fixed with Mr Rao. But put in effort, and your pay will increase. 25-30% minimum yearly, but this guy who worked there told me his pay increased in 8 months itself. I think you should try seeking out one of his current or recently-left juniors, most of them are a helpful bunch, no doubt in part due to Mr Rao's humble nature itself.
Though no chamber disallows juniors to work independently and income from independent clients belongs solely to the juniors.
Started @ 15k, currently @ 25k. (mostly criminal trial work).
I'm allowed to take up my own cases though, and all that fees is mine.
And if I get cases for my senior, I am eligible for a generous (though not fixed) cut.
Batchmates who went to HC or SC instead of trial get slightly higher.
Is this generally the norm in Delhi?
If not, what other seniors would normally pay this much/more?
And how this figure would go up over the years in Mr. Raos chambers?
Thank you!!
I remember someone saying that some young seniors like Mr Rajshekhar can pay much more?
Any info whatsoever is appreciated
He's not a designated senior, he's a regular advocate. The year I joined his chamber was a really bumper year for him financially, he made double what I mentioned.
I'm curious what do top tier senior advocates charge per appearance in Bangalore? It's about 2-3 lakh per appearance in Bombay, briefing/settling/calls/OPE extra.
I started off at 12k/month, currently drawing 24k/month. I'm allowed to take money from my clients directly, senior has no problem if it's a 1000 or a crore, it all depends on your ability to milk the client. However, his progeny who is a colleague also expects, and realises a cut of everything I collect.
For context, senior makes 8 - 10 crore a year.
It is also interesting as per this report that at least a dozen senior counsels make over 1 crore a day. That makes for at least 200 crores a year (which is so much more than what any lawyer in the UK or US would make).