We want LI to be one of the friendliest places on the internet, where lawyers and law students help each other with their career related queries and occasionally discuss other stuff that might affect their lives too. In other words:
1. Be kind, respectful and helpful to each other.
2. Be bona fide, truthful, genuine and curious.
3. Assume the best intention of others.
Therefore, in using the site, you must agree to do your best to uphold these community guidelines.
Note that what you find here is written and moderated by anonymous people on the internet.
Therefore everything you read here is very likely unverified, rumour, speculation and/or downright false.
In continuing to read anything here, you must therefore agree not to take anything you read here as factual and that you will exercise due caution, diligence and common sense before acting on any information you may come across here.
You also agree to report any inaccurate or malicious comments with the buttons. Moderators take action within 24 hours, as required and appropriate under law.
Our full terms and conditions apply too.
Do you solemnly agree to all of the above?
Secondly because PPP wise comparing I can save more while living a relatively more lavish life in India. (IF you are talking about Magic Circle firms)Thirdly because I don't want to become a second class citizen and be subjected to their anti-immigration tantrums.
Third one, I can understand about the anti-immigration mood fluctuations, many people wouldn't want the psychological uncertainty and instability that results from that sort of thing - and yes, it comes with the territory. But this "second class citizen" language is putting this very strongly, and definitely does not reflect my personal experience (I am not saying this to contradict you, but putting forward my own perspective). I live in London and have done so for the last five years (and yes, I read the London Times, Guardian and Financial Times every day, so I definitely don't live under a rock here). But I haven't felt like a "second class citizen", ever. Perhaps it's because of my visible disability, but in many ways, I have felt more like a first class citizen in Britain than I ever did in India (and I spent about 80% of my life in India - wasn't one of the privileged [family network-wise and financially] disabled people of earlier generations from India and Israel educated from childhood in the UK).
Only leave the UK for India if you have this kind of life. Else, get the f*** out of India and save yourselves.
AQI
1. On a PPP basis. You are far more rich in a tier 1 shop in India than a Magic Circle firm in London.
2. Work culture and Hours - if you think magic circle or AM100 lawyers have it easy you are wrong. Law firms are horrible to work at even in Germany (country with most WLB)
3. Far more easy to grow in India - UK, US law firms have saturated. Especially in the UK - legal market cannot grow any further.
Indian legal market will be growing super fast in the coming years. In 30 years I won't be surprised if Trilegal/CAM/Khaitan individually has 1000+ partners and 6000+ associates.
If you are somewhat competent you will make partner in an Indian firm.
Practise areas like IP and competition are extremely crowded: 1. because of the niche practise area 2. lot of boutique firms are present, which can provide same/similar service at a much lower cost. therefore, acquiring clients becomes even more competitive.
Additionally, since law firms dont have a set retirement age (atleast nothing on this, that i am aware of) most senior partners tend to stay put, making it difficult for the younger lot to acquire clients.
Things that ARE better here: Much better quality of work, much better training, much less lala family politics in the office and far more professional (politics will always be there anywhere humans work - but much better than Indian family firms). Comfortable life (not rich), no pollution, the power doesn't go out, the streets are clean, the public services (mostly) work without corruption. Basically you can live your life in peace without most the daily hassles of Indian life. Also if it matters to you - far more diverse, much greater range of interesting people from all over the world, incredible cultural opportunities and the chances to pursue any hobby you have (art, music, literature, sports, you name it) with the best people in the world.
Basically you don't come to London for the money - you come for the lifestyle.
Don't worry about nonsense re immigration and racism. No place is perfect but this is probably the least racist place on Earth and in the circles you'll move in as a City lawyer, racism is non existent (and even in other circles, it's mostly a class issue - directed at the illegals coming in boats across the Channel, not high earning City lawyers).
Essentially, although the salaries are higher in London, the taxes are (far) higher and so is the cost of living if you live in a nice part of London (and even more so if you want to send your children to private school). Far more bang for the buck in India in terms of finances - the lower taxes and lower cost of living mean you can afford a lot more and have more disposable income, not to mention there are simply more opportunities in a growing market and country like India.
On the other hand - there are lots of things about London you can't measure in money. How do you measure the value of living in London and not choking on the way to work like winter in Delhi? Or using it as a base to see Europe and the world and have friends from all over the world and work with the best people in the world? Ultimately it depends on what is important to you and what you want from life - but if money is all you want (nothing wrong with that) - trust me, stick to India.
Yes, if you come to London when you're 26 and work hard for 5 years and live carefully and save money and go back at 31, you can probably save more than you can in India, but after 5 years you probably won't want to go back (and you would have wasted the opportunity to experience London and Europe) and once children and spouse enter the picture there are a lot more factors in the equation. And if you want that kind of 5 year plan you're better off going to Dubai or Singapore where the taxes are lower anyway.
As I keep saying - money is the wrong lens with which to consider that kind of move - what kind of life do you want?
- I get £10.9k in-hand (8pqe, magic circle).
- Spouse earns £2k (unless your spouse is also a lawyer/tech professional, in my experience it is difficult to find high paying roles in most other industries in the UK).
Main outgoings:
- £2.4k rent
- £2k child school (includes fees and afterschool club (i.e. childcare from 3-6pm))
- £1k in non-discretionary costs (council tax, gorceries, utilities)
- £400 for house help (once/week cook + cleaner)
- £800 for the car (EMI, insurance, fuel, parking)
- £1-1.5k in discretionary spending
- £1k for travel (normalised and covers annual holidays, weekend getaways + trip to India)
£2.4k rent is on the low side. There are lots of variables of course, but I'm guessing you are either living outside London and commuting (tough with MC hours) or in a 2 bed flat somewhere. That figure is what you'd probably spend for a modest 2 bed flat in a nice area or a nice two bed flat in a much less nice area (on average). Your kid is probably fairly young too - you probably cannot live in a flat like that long term (although car suggests you probably are living outside London and commuting which means you may have a bigger place).
As a rough estimate, a nice family house in a decent area will be around double that (if not a lot more) - and that will come from after tax income. Also, in the long term you won't want to be dependent on rent and will need to have saved the deposit on a mortgage which is another game entirely...
Ditto school fees - £2k per month is for one child. If you have 2 (or god forbid, 3) - well, that's all coming from after tax income and at your income level that's near enough 50% tax.
Also, unless you are in the tiny minority who makes MC partner, or makes it to the top of an inhouse job (ie, MD legal at a bank), your income is already pretty close to topping out. You can still go up, but you are not going to double your income.
In short - your costs are going to keep going up, and your income is probably not. You don't really have any slack left for the long term unless you make partner or your spouse starts earning as much as you do. Forget saving a lot - you'll be lucky if you can just hang on to your current lifestyle especially if you have more children.
I don't mean to suggest you're badly off or anything - you're making a high income and living a comfortable lifestyle - and if necessary you can take kids out of private school etc - I'm just pointing out that one does not come to London (especially with a family) to save money..
Its (relatively) easy to get into MC but making partner is a whole different game... The way I look at it, one option is to move to a US firm for a 25% pay rise, or keep grinding and gun for partnership here or in a peer/silvercircle firm. No easy options really.
I don't really give out my email address etc
-> take the SQE and move directly to a Magic Circle or US law firm
-> do an LL.M. in the UK and look for positions at city firms, Magic Circle, US firms
-> do an LL.M. in the US and look for corporate positions in US firms
first year salaries (NQ) could be £50,000 at boutiques or north of £200,000 at firms that pay at Cravath scale.
--> Take the SQE - but how do you move? how do you find vacancy? most junior level hiring is via "vacation schemes" etc via which are atleast 2 year long pathways. that sounds maddening to me, cause why should i leave my T1 job to go be an intern/paralegal for almost 2 years. Vacancies that i see on linkedin of recruiters is usually for Singapore offices or at times for Dubai offices.
--> do LLM in the UK - people that i have talked to, who have gone to Oxbridge often say that the uni doesnt have campus placement for grad students, then how does one land a job?
On top of that economies are closing and job market is saturated, so what is the way out.
-> UK's economy has been struggling so there are less jobs, and a lot of competition from students all over the world to do 4 year traineeship and be paralegals.
-> US has the jobs and the economy but there are too many barriers to entry.
If you're looking for a way out an MBA has plenty of finance, M&A and strategy options but this also comes with a grind as the market is very competitive. But at least you can find people willing to interview.