The authorities required her to take no tests. They went by whats on the passport. If you think thats what makes someone male or female I dont know how we can have a rational conversation.

Here is what Khelifs Coach said to Le Point Magazine:

"Georges Cazorla told the magazine of Khelif’s distress when disqualified by the IBA in 2023, confirming that biological tests had been carried out by the IBA that revealed that Khelif may not be female.

Cazorla is the President of the Association for Research and Evaluation in Physical Activity and Sport (AREAPS), a scientific advisor, and a former lecturer University of Bordeaux who supervised the master’s thesis of Khelif’s manager, Nasser Yefsah. At the end of 2022, Yefsah contacted Cazorla to assist with Khelif’s training for the world championships, the African championships and the Olympic Games.

“The [disqualification] was based on tests. Frankly, I found it disgusting. Regardless of the results of these biological tests and, without going into detail – that is a matter for biologists and doctors – this poor young girl was devastated, devastated to suddenly discover that she might not be a girl,” Cazorla said."

to sum up:

Khelif did take tests, Khelif did know that he was not female. His coaches knew he wasnt female. The italian and spanish teams knew he wasnt female. The IBA and the IOC both knew he wasnt female. Whatever distress this might have caused Khelif ( I seriously doubt an adult of 25 years didnt realise they werent female when they didnt go through normal female puberty)- that is not a good enough reason to keep punching females to win the olympic gold. There is a male advantage to boxing whether Khelif personally believes it or not. Khelif doesnt care about womens sport or fairness or the safety of other women competitors. Like is typical of male humans Khelif thinks his feelings matter more than womens rights and safety. Thats who and what youre supporting.

link: https://reduxx.info/khelifs-coach-confirms-problem-with-chromosomes-as-spanish-national-boxing-team-commissioner-reveals-that-khelif-was-considered-too-dangerous-to-train-against-women/

She's taken all the tests that the authorities required her to take. You forget that you don't get to judge whether she's a woman. You lack the locus and she doesn't have any reason to prove her womanhood to you. Just like you haven't been required to prove your manhood to the readers here.

‘I’m a woman like any other woman': Imane Khelif after winning gold
===================================================================

https://www.hindustantimes.com/sports/olympics/i-am-a-woman-like-any-other-woman-imane-khelif-after-historic-boxing-gold-at-paris-olympics-despite-gender-row-101723284193306.html

For anyone still following the story. Vinesh Phogat was disqualified because she was 100 gms over weight- thats how strict the weight criteria are for combat sports like wrestling and boxing. They weighed her twice over three days to make sure she didnt have a weight advantage over other competitors. But an XY male is not subject to any testing - not even a simple cheek swab if he has F on his passport and says hes female. Even if other sporting bodies conducted two lab tests that showed XY chromosomes. No genetic or biological disadvantage is supposed to be the limit. Because women have to be perfect to compete in the correct category and no man can be disqualified from competing in the female category.

People love bringing up Michael Phelps at this point and saying he had genetic advantages. Yes. And if 50% of people had those genetic differences there would be different categories in swimming. 50% of people in the world have a genetic and biological advantage over females because they are male. and the Female category was created to allow women to compete. And we dont protect that category anymore. Women will get killed and hurt because of this.

FYI both boxers defeated by Imane and the Taiwanese boxer (the other controversial boxer with XY chromosomes) make XX signs with their hands after losing, as a protest statement to show that they are women.

The finals for Imane and the Taiwanese boxer take place this weekend. Both are favourites to win gold.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/07/olympics-boxing-live-gender-row-fighter-lin-yu-ting-women/

Doing what? No one is arguing that he has transitioned. Its pretty clear when you see photos and videos of him in algeria that he leads his life as a male

Here are some I found that make this fairly clear:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUFYQuvWUAASPZU?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GT9mORkWkAABB7y?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GT9ohy2XEAAWzt-?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUJh-eOX0AATNfs?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUHkmTEWwAAF4ST?format=jpg&name=medium

No burkas, no veiling, quite freely, quite obviously living as a man. Wearing a groin guard- make of that what you will. Semenya was living this way too- after winning in the rio olympics in the womens 800 mtr race he went on to father children and live quite happily as a male. Because thats who these people are- theyre males.

Imanes birth certificate is dated 2018. He is 25 years old- why is his birth certificate 6 years old? exactly the time he began competing in womens sports? Surely babies and their parents are given birth certificates in the immediate aftermath of birth? Why did Imanes take 19 years? How could this happen without the government of algeria being in on it?

Could it be because "African coaches began deliberately scouting for DSD males to train for high-level female competition, since after 2000 they even had a shot at Olympic gold" as stated in this times london article: https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/a-simple-cheek-swab-can-protect-female-boxers-0fkdgv6st

Moving away from DSDs and Imanes case specifically- on transgenderism and religion, I would reexamine your priors. Did you know that the country where the second most gender reassignment surgeries in the world happen is--- iran? yes fundamentalist muslim iran. (https://kapital-noviny.sk/islamic-republic-of-iran-the-unlikely-sex-change-capital/#:~:text=Second%20only%20to%20Thailand%2C%20the,with%20270%20successful%20surgeries%20annually.) Thats because they dont allow homosexual relationships in iran and so if you are gay and in a relationship- one of you would have to get the surgery to remain in the relationship. The idea that there are progressive secular countries are pro trans and pro gender identity and regressive or religious countries are anti trans is complete bunkum. Its too simplistic by half and doesnt query the fundamental homophobia at the core of the transgender ideology that states that your sex is unimportant, what is important is your inner essence, so an effeminate gay man would have an inner essence of a woman and would need to change his body to mimic that of women.

Theres a similar belief in gender being attached to a soul that is religious in nature, and a similar use of modern technology to put the world in "correct" order rather than accepting gender non conforming people of all sexes to be as they are. Homophobia and gender identity beliefs go quite far back. Look up what the cotton ceiling is- its the idea that lesbians are transphobic and bigoted for being attracted only to other women and that trans women ( males) are unfairly excluded in lesbian spaces because of their male bodies ( which the canon holds shouldnt matter. The cotton ceiling here refers to the lesbians underwear which is a barrier trans women (males) would see as a barrier to their acceptance. The fundamental idea is that lesbians must reframe their sexuality include male bodies if gender identity is to matter more than sex.

Lastly, algeria and other islamic countries and african countries do live in 2024, they dont live in some ignorant idyllic past where people didnt know what sex was. When your "daughter" doesnt menstruate at the age of puberty and his balls drop instead and he goes through a male puberty, any person knows that there was a disorder of sex development at birth and the adolescent is actually male. Even poor religious people know the difference between males and females, animals know the difference between male and female- thats how they reproduce. The idea that Imane lived her whole life as female and everyone around her always thought she was female until Angela Carini cried in the ring is total nonsense. He knew he was male, he was tested and given test results by the IBA, he knew he was male as he started to go through male puberty. His parents knew, his coaches knew and the government of algeria certainly knew. They have tried to suppress that information through falsifying documents. To argue that brown muslims dont know male from female is honestly- racist and eurocentric.

Here is a link to the notes from the IBA presser for anyone who is still confused: https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-clarifies-the-facts-the-letter-to-the-ioc-regarding-two-ineligible-boxers-was-sent-and-acknowledged/

Here is the chronology according to them:

- 1. Imane Khelif has been participating in the IBA competitions since 2018, and Lin Yu-ting has competed since 2017. Current IBA management, having been in leadership since December 2020, has been on top of the problem from the very first IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships they conducted in 2022. IBA cannot comment on the previous iterations and lack of leadership actions in this regard.
- 2. Following many complaints from several coaches, boxers agreed to gender testing. Blood sample collection was made on 17 May 2022. Sistem Tip Laboratory from Istanbul (License Number: 194-MRK) issued its report on 24 May 2022, after the competition ended. The laboratory detected results that didn’t match the eligibility criteria for IBA women’s events.
- 3. Khelif won the silver medal in category 63 kg, Lin won the gold medal in category 57 kg.
- 4.One test for each athlete was not enough to make a decision with respective consequences; in the case that one test mistake is possible. The lawyers advised to monitor the situation and to contact the IOC.
- 5.IBA informed the IOC representatives about these tests, but no reaction followed from the IOC side.
- The situation was completely new to boxing, and IBA, following numerous consultations, decided to conduct a second testing before disqualifying the boxers. However, the second testing could only be conducted in a neutral country and within the IBA competition period.
- 6.At the next IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships 2023 in New Delhi, Khelif and Lin were tested following their consent again before their first fights. Blood sample collection was made on 17 March 2023. Dr Lal PathLabs from New Delhi issued its report on 23 March 2023. The findings were absolutely identical to the first test results.
- 7.On 24 March 2023, IBA Secretary General & CEO at the time, George Yerolimpos, informed both Khelif and Lin about their exclusion from the Championships for not meeting the eligibility criteria. The athletes received a copy of their testing and were informed about the possibility of appealing to the CAS within 21 days.
- 8. Khelif and Lin were informed accordingly about the decision and acknowledged it by signing the papers. The test details were attached to the letter.
- 9. On 26 March 2023, the IBA Board of Directors by a majority vote decided to ratify the decision taken by the IBA Secretary General & CEO on behalf of IBA to disqualify Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships 2023.
- 10.These tests affect the private life of the person concerned and constitute medical information protected as personal data. We are not allowed to publish these documents without the agreement of the person concerned. However, both Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting received a copy of these tests, and they never disputed it. They know these tests exist and it is not fake.
- 11. Both athletes were provided with the right to appeal against the Board’s decision to the CAS.
- Lin Yu-ting did not appeal against the decision to declare her ineligible, and it became legal and binding.

It is obvious to me and everyone who isnt putting on blinkered glasses that there were complaints from other boxers and their coaches well before the current controversy, that these complaints led to two different sex tests which looked for chromosomes and not just testosterone. Imane and Ting are Males.

Even if you think the IBA is so corrupt nothing they say can be trusted because of russia whatever- even if you think dr lal pathlabs is corrupt- Dont you think the smart thing for the IOC to do if they cared about safety and fairness of female athletes would be to do a cheek swab? if the cheek swab proved that Imane and Ting were xx , female- wouldnt that have been an easier way to end the controversy? Why did the IOC not do this? Why would you spend your time shouting down and censoring women expressing concern over safety and fairness for female athletes rather than using your social media to demand the IOC does testing? Why are the female athletes not your priority?

Ask yourself if any of the media you have consumed on this issue has explained any of this to you really. or have they just told you Imane and Ting are girls and females and cisgender women? have they told you that the concern is about males rather than transgendered people? in fact a trans man (female) hergie bacyadan entered in womens boxing and not one terf or right wing transphobic bigot said a thing about it? It really really isnt about transphobia or racism or beauty standards- It really is about male or female and biological advantages of having XY and having a testes which produces testosterone and sperm.

Ask yourself why womens sport is not worth protecting for you, and what would happen if we did away with testing for sex and simply relied on passports like the IOC did- do you think any person with xx would ever medal in the future?

Caster Semenya was defended by the same people and media houses in the Rio Olympics. After the olympics caster semenya got a woman pregnant with his sperm and is completely living as a man. How is that fair to the women he robbed of medals?

Ask yourself why youre so quick to conform and believe your media feed and so quick to jump in to defend males and deride females. Does it make you feel good to tell women they need to smile and apologise after being beaten by males? Deal with your misogyny.

No There is evidence- Khelif has made it impossible for that evidence to be publicly released by having her government protest the release of the IBA tests and by not waiving confidentiality and by refusing to take tests further. Its a clever little legal trap . But that doesnt disprove that the IBA presser has specifically made clear that there was a "male karyotype" or a xy chromosomal make up present for both Khelif and Ting.

We dont allow all males into womens boxing because we cannot prove they are male because they wont submit to testing and wont release medical records. That would be absurd. the womens category would not longer exist. When its a category meant only for XX it is on the IOC and any sports organising body to double check and make sure that all players are female sex, and have no genetic or biological advantages as a result of being male.

You dont let grown adult strange men play with kindergartners if they claim theyre 6 years old. You get a doctor to look at them and estimate an age or you do tests. Or you believe your own eyes and tell the creep to go away. its called safeguarding.

It is literally impossible to have this conversation without clarity about the sexes of people under issue. Im happy to play pretend pronouns when its not important- but when we're discussing males beating up females we do need to be able to speak clearly about which is which. Sorry it hurts your feelings. But your rights end where my rights begin. Its not a hate crime in india. Show me the law.

Because they cannot release the tests dude. Its medical confidentiality. Theyve told you everything they could about the tests- which labs in which countries on which dates, serial numbers included and they literally said male karyotypes. They cannot make it more clear without violating medical ethics. Khelif and Ting could waive confidentiality- then wed know exactly whats what. Why do you think theyre not doing that? Why dont they do a cheek swab right now and put the whole controversy to bed? Theyre so tired of being bullied- why dont they just prove all the haters wrong?

Look at all those unpublished comments on this thread. Moderators keep putting their thumb on the scale in these arguments. I suggest you stop letting these topics be posted altogether. Dont let people put it up because youll get clicks, and then censor one side selectively. This forum will be alive enough on its own with discussing the olympics or gender or israel. If you do want people to discuss those things- adopt a free speech standard rather than anything else that would be incredibly biasing.

Yes. When a bug hits my windshield I dont bother getting out of my car and suing the bug. But when someone throws a rock at my windshield I might complain. Its not in human nature to go out of your way to complain about things that dont actually affect you. The problem isnt one of aesthetics. If Khelif and Ting werent punching as hard as they could and were throwing those matches- women arent crazy to still go and complain. They dont want to be mean for the sake of being mean. Its only when women realised how vast the difference is between males and females in punching power and in sporting performance that people complained that it was unfair to xx.

FWIW-- some women complained even in 2022 and 2023- thats why the IBA carried out sex tests and disqualified Khelif and Ting. Women were complaining. You werent listening. And the IOC refused to look into that history.

Which law have you cited? Which law? What are the standards for the IOC? You said that since other women didnt complain the ones who did shouldnt be believed. They must be doing so with an agenda. Thats not a law. Thats just misogyny.

What is the IOC standard for sex eligibility? They made it plenty clear in their presser- they did no testing, no cheek swab, did not look into past controversies, and went by the sexes on the passport. I can accept that that is what the IOC did while calling that unfair and a dereliction of the IOCs duty to ensure fairness and safety and equality for women. Just because something is legal doesnt make it just.

Your argument is that the IOC cannot do wrong. The IOC has done something- therefore it is not wrong. Its completely circular. The IOC did NO testing of their own, they did not consider the IBA testing at all- they said this during the presser- the only proof they looked for was what was on the passport. I can go get my passport changed today to say im a man- would that make me XY?

They did ! They did! The IBA has now confirmed in the presser that other females did complain about Imane and Lin Yu Ting being male thats why the sex tests were conducted and thats why these males were disqualified from the world boxing championships in 2023. Why on earth would you assume that women have no problem being beaten up by a male? Could you consider that losing sponsorships and being labelled a bigot and being ripped apart online and in person might dissuade women from complaining?

The IBA just did. They just did a presser, they had previously told you the labs - theres one in Istanbul and one in India, in new delhi. They have released the serial numbers of the labs. They cannot do more than that by revealing the tests themselves. They have made clear that these were blood tests and a sex test that revealed a male karyotype - xy chromosomes. No one can make you see something that you refuse to because of your prior biases about right and wrong, good and bad.

Some of them have. Others did not. Some of those supporting this have been bullied into it by their sponsors. Even Carini and Hamori were made to issue public apologies which they clearly did not mean.

It cannot be a principle that as long as women are okay with men beating them, men can continue to beat up women.

I have spent a lot of time looking up this stuff. I will say again: NO ONE is arguing that a female will never beat a male in boxing. We are arguing that there are biological differences because of genetics and hormones. I dont know how you can be so thick as to keep missing the point.

The IBA just did a presser where they revealed that the sex tests in 2022 in Istanbul and 2023 in India were conducted in response to female athletes complaining about Ting and Khelif being Male. Women have been complaining- youre only choosing to listen to those women who do not complain. Imagine if we decided that we did not need domestic violence law tomorrow because some wives are happy with their husbands even if their husbands beat them.

The IBA folks just did a presser where they disclosed that the two tests administered- one in 2022 and one in 2023, both after complaints from other female competitors showed a male karyotype- an XY chromosomal make up.

We dont ask people to prove a negative. Prove that imane is not a man and oh we wont let you test imane because of medical reasons. Im tired of repeating myself. Please educate yourself on this case.

1) There are two different tests conducted by the international boxing association in 2022 and 2023- one in istanbul and one in india- after female boxing competitors complained that shows that Imane and the Taiwanese Lin Yu Ting had male chromosomal makeup.
2) Both Imane and Lin Yu Ting were disqualified from word boxing championships as a result of failing the sex test in 2023.
3) Imane and Lin Yu Ting could have appealed the IBAs decision to disqualify them to the court of arbitration for sport but did not. This would have made the sex test public and verifiable
4) Imane and Lin Yu Ting could have taken a cheek swab test to prove they were female but they did not.

5) Both Algeria and Taiwan have requested the IOC to not share the medical test results conducted by the IBA on grounds of medical controversy.
6) The IOC could have asked all athletes to take a once in a life time cheek swab test but did not. Literally the only proof they have is Imane's passport- which was likely based on his birth certificate which again- is dated 2018. Right around the time Imane started his career of boxing against women.
7) We do not have a womens category if we allow every male into it by giving them the benefit of the doubt and put the onus on females to prove that the males do not belong. That means youre asking female athletes to do the job of the IOC in safeguarding women and in upholding fair play.

8) I have eyes.

Here is an article by quillette to summarise it all: https://quillette.com/2024/08/03/xy-athletes-in-womens-olympic-boxing-paris-2024-controversy-explained-khelif-yu-ting/
Here is a link to the IBA presser snippet : https://x.com/ReduxxMag/status/1820437532850495961

I'm not chanting any mantra. Simply the existing law. You as a lawyer not being able to understand that is a you problem. She's being allowed to compete in this tournament because she has not been disqualified under the applicable laws. The other competitors did not raise any challenge against her qualification until one lost to her.

Maybe Imale ( haha love the freudian slip) is hitting to full capacity in these matches because it was Olympics? And not a smaller championship? Do you think that realising the full force of male power and strength could have motivated more competitors from speaking up? where as they might not have noticed or felt confident in complaining before?

How do you know they didnt complain? Did you look? Why do you think the IBA did testing in the first place? Because the women were complaining!

Yes I do. What happened is that this specific athletes faced two different tests at different labs in different countries that was not a testosterone test and failed to meet the sex based eligibility. If you want to argue that that test is not reliable youre going to have to do more than say the IBA is corrupt or russian. Indians and the Indian medical system is corrupt- theres plenty of money thats changing hands at high level between pharma and testing companies and the government- but I'm pretty sure my lab results when I get my yearly check up are fairly accurate.

Hey moderator- It is not a crime in India to refer to anyone by their natal sex. Making this so would go against the very tenets of free speech. You cannot force women to lie and deny the evidence of their own eyes. It is especially pathetic and transparent to try and do so after every other argument for the gender havers have failed.

Trying to confuse the language which we use when we discuss sex directly leads to misinformation and it leads to confusion and ultimately- the erasure of the female sex class.

In many countries it is illegal to say anything offensive about certain religions. Fortunately we arent one of them. And most civilised people would agree that blasphemy laws are wrong because they do not allow for free speech and deliberation. Laws do not alone make morality. and Laws of other countries do not make impose obligations or punishments in this one.

Once again- no one is arguing that all women will lose to all men all the time. Or that no man will throw a match or have a bad day. The argument is that the biology confers an unfair advantage that makes fairplay and safety impossible. I can keep repeating it- but at some point you have to stop quoting a mantra you learned on reddit and actually engage.

I mean- you all keep arguing these frankly incoherent stances. 1) someone on here says the law decides whether someone is male or female. Which it absolutely does not. We could make a law tomorrow that gravity wasnt real, but apples would still fall on your head.
2) You start arguing that there is no evidence at all- Which isnt true. The IBA findings are public- their statement explicitly state that these athletes were administered a sex test which was not a testosterone test and they failed the eligibility for female. Even if you dont trust the IBA- there is the fact that neither the taiwanese nor the algerian appealed the IBA decision. The IBA mind you conducted two tests with two independent labs once in 2022 and once in 2023. Both consistent findings.
Add to this the IOC first issued a statement that "this wasnt a DSD case" and then corrected themselves- leading any sane individual to conclude that this was a DSD case. Otherwise why make the correction?
Then add to that the president of world boxing saying Imane Khelif is male- you now have multiple people who have seen the sex test results confirming its an XY male with a DSD.

3) Even if you discard all of that as not conclusive proof. Shouldnt the IOC then have a duty of care for its female athletes and honestly even for the alleged males to test them with a cheek swab and clear all controversy? Arent the interests of female athletes in safety and fairness worth protecting at the olympics? Arent the interests of the alleged males in avoiding controversy worth protecting?

4) Failing all of that- Why does the womens category exist? Is it to let anyone compete who claims they are a woman? or is to create fair and safe sports for half of the population that has different biology? If it is the latter- which it has to be because of the history of how womens sports came to be- then shouldnt the operating principle be that you safeguard the female space? That you dont let someone in if you suspect they are male unless they prove otherwise?

5) failing that even- what youre asking people to do is to prove a negative. Prove that ▮▮▮ isnt female. Which no one can do unless Imane Khelif agrees to a cheek swab test. And unless that proof is given everyone - no matter their history, no matter the credibility of allegations against them, no matter previous testing and no matter the evidence of our own eyes- should be allowed in the womens category. Do you think womens sport would continue to exist if that standard was truly to apply?

6) Failing that even- you argue that me thinking she is male doesnt make her male, but her thinking she is female makes her female? Do you think male and female are just make believe? what is an identity? is it completely internal and psychological? if I think im superman am i superman? if ben shapiro thinks hes a black guy does he become back? Or does identity have to do with the social world? If you and I see a baby girl and we both agree shes a baby girl as opposed to a baby boy does she become a baby girl? Or is this not about identity- as nebulous a concept that is at all- but simply about biology? XY/ XX/ whatever DSDs you have, whether your biology gives you an unfair advantage? I dont particularly care if Imane Khelif wants to wear dresses and call himself whatever. I care that his biology is making boxing unfair and unsafe for women.

The test is not confidential because results would vindicate Khelif. The test is confidential because Khelif doesnt want to make it public and he has a right to confidentiality regarding his medical information. Khelif could easily have contested the IBA findings before the CAS- he filed an appeal and then withdrew it. Why do you think that is? Could it be because genetic testing showed he was an XY male with a DSD? Do you really think someone grows to the age of 25 and wrongly assumes theyre a woman when they have no ovaries no uterus no fallopian tube and no periods. Even in XY individuals with 5 ARD, the testicles still are functional and eventually drop and you very clearly see effects of male puberty- do you really think Khelif was simply running around having no clue he had this condition and it was giving him an advantage in boxing women?

In any case if the IBA results are not credible why would the IOC not conduct their own testing? a simple once in a lifetime cheek swab is all it takes? Why would the IOC not do that much to ensure the women were safe and had fair competition? Why does the benefit of doubt to go the male?

Why didnt as many people complain when these males were failing at taking away opportunities from women? Is that really the question? Do you complain when you fail to be robbed everyday? Why do you think the IBA did the testing in the first place? they did targetted testing for five athletes in 2022 and 2023 after female athletes complained that they were being forced to fight males. The testing found that they were right- these two people were male. Other women were complaining- you werent listening. Your media wasnt reporting. Three different olympic level athletes from three different countries- bulgaria, italy, and hungary have all said its unfair- are they all sore losers and do they all just need to train harder? At what point do you stop thinking women are just crybabies and take their concerns seriously? Isnt it the IOCs job to ensure there is fair competition and that women athletes are safe?

Hey moderator: there is a comment here misgendering Imane with he/him pronouns. How can you allow this comment? Misgendering gets you banned on all social media platforms (except X, after Elon Musk took over and made it a hate platform) and in many countries you can face criminal liability for misgendering persons.

Yes it absolutely does. Someone XY with internal tested had a great advantage because they produce more testosterone.

Why were people not crying out when he hadn’t stolen opportunities from women ? Because he hadn’t stolen opportunities from women. People aren’t angry for aesthetic reasons - people are angry because this is wrong to put women through this.

No one is arguing that there isn’t a woman out there who cannot beat him, or that he will always be on top of his game and never throw a match. What people are arguing is that his biology confers an unfair advantage. 3 Olympian women have now stated how they feel it’s unfair - are they all just imbeciles and losers ?

And world boxing and the IOC which said this was not a DSD case and then redacted that statement. Do you choose who to believe depending on what story you like ? Two tests done in two different countries isn’t enough ? Khelif could have appealed to CAS and made the records public but he chose not to . Why allow people to speculate about your sex when you can easily prove you’re female ?

Why didn't any of you raise the issue when the same boxer had taken part in earlier Olympics and got defeated by women boxers? The woman boxer who defeated her earlier has gone on record saying that these opponents are only playing the victim card and their own inability to play the sports better.

And over 50% of people have xx chromosomes. So if you allow XY people with their genetic and biological advantages into womens sport - there will not be any womens sport left. We saw this at the rio olympics where three XY people far outpaced women who were Olympic runners. But we’re seeing a worse version of it now where it’s not just fairness but safety because boxing is a combat sport. All three women opponents now - the Italian Angela Carini , Hungarian Luca Hamoria and Bulgarian Svetlana Staneva have expressed how it’s unfair to make xx compete with xy. None of them wanted to finish the fight with the latter two being forced to go back in for more rounds by their coaches. And all of them have been forced by sponsors and the IOC to issue public apologies for their frank and human reactions to an injustice. Are they all bigots ? Are they all in a Russian conspiracy ? Are they all untrained and lazy and bad sports ?

These are all women who are at the top of their country for boxing - they’ve beaten out every woman in their country. They’re not afraid of boxing and they’re not untrained idiots. They know that it’s different when a man beats you as opposed to a woman. Men of the same size and muscle mass have 162% more punching power than women.

We’re not deciding who is pretty or dainty or feminine enough and we’re not deciding who we invite to girls trip. The people speaking up about this are not big old meanies. This is about safety and fairness for women.

There are right wing men saying how it’s unfair, there’s left wing women saying it’s unfair, 80 something percent of female athletes want to bring back genetic sex tests.

People on this thread defending this: If you don’t think there’s something off about this whole thing. If your natural response is to think “ I hate the other team so they must be wrong”. You should take a good long look at whether you’re more attached to your team than principles like standing up for womens rights for safety and fairness and equality. Your politics then might be completely devoid of any real concern for the oppressed and just a cynical play for power. Re-examine your priors.

The fact that the internet is roasting Angela Carini for "being afraid of getting knocked out" -- Do you really believe a woman who dedicated so much time and energy on boxing that she made it all the way to the fucking Olymics has never been punched in the face by another woman?

Do you really think she just strolled up to the arena whilst on a walk on Paris, thought "I'll give this boxing business a go", and was thrown completely off guard over being punched?

Maybe the fact that an Olymic-level athlete had to forfeit after less than a minute might signal that something isn't right.

Crazy thought, but maybe she forfeited because she's very familiar with what it feels like to be punch in the face by another woman and she has the experience to be able to tell whether her opponent is or isn't another woman.

Its got nothing to do with race and everything to do with Males beating up females. If you enjoy watching any man beat up a woman- because you have political differences or because you have racial resentment- consider that youve got to deal with some misogyny.

There are plenty of people of color including women of colour- including me- who saw that match and saw a male beating a female and winning an olympic medal for it. consider why you hate white people so much that you think its funny when white women are beaten by men. And ask yourself if that actually makes you a good person.

You see the world in these binaries of goodies and baddies. Anyone not going along with the extreme left must be right wing.

You dont even know do you? you dont know that the people who have pushing back to save womens sport the longest are women,and theyre women who have worked within the second wave feminist movement, theyre female athletes, theyre lesbians. J.K. Rowling- who im sure you think is a terrible right wing bigot- lost her billionaire status because of all the money she gave to womens causes around the world including setting up rape crisis centres. Shes always voted labour. Julie Bindel has been an anti rape anti trafficking campaigner all her life. She rose to fame for pushing the prosecution of the yorkshire ripper who was killing women. She thinks shes saving womens sport. Sharron davies was a feminist hero for breaking barriers in swimming. Do you really think they dont care about raped women? What a false binary. What do you do in your life to support victims of assault that makes up for you celebrating televised male violence against women?

How misogynistic to make the jordan petersons and the donald trumps the face of the opposition when its obvious that the most sincere and strongest opposition to this mens rights movement has always been from left wing radical feminist women?

Its got nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with biology and what having XY chromosomes and a testes that produces sperm and testosterone does to your body. I'm sorry your karate teacher was able to hurt you when you were a child- but adult human females and adult human males have entirely different biology, You are not a child anymore. You are a grown man and I bet you could beat her up if you wanted to. I dont have to take your word for it- there are studies. Men on average, even at the elite level, have bigger heart sizes, bigger lung sizes, bigger wingspan, more punching power even accounting for weight and for muscle mass, more grip strength, bicep strength, less body fat, greater femur length, able to lift more weights, jump higher, and have more lower body muscle and quad strength. This is what scientific studies show. This remains true even if those men claim to be women. This remains true even if they have DSDs. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

I can also tell you anecdotes- almost every woman can- of how they thought they were going to die when a man decided to hit them- and how they didnt think it was possible for that man to have that much strength., and looking at that match I only saw a man beating up a woman. Because thats what it was- you need to work out your own trauma through other methods- go to therapy. Dont weaponise your personal trauma to justify giving men olympic medals for beating up women.

Just because some awful women exist who abuse young boys doesnt mean that women deserve to have fair sport taken away and to be beaten for sport on the world stage.

hes not gay- as far as we can tell, not a lesbian (since you have to be female) although I do think some of the women he beat up are lesbians. Hes not trans. Theres no reason to think hes nonbinary either- hes never said that he is. What he is is an XY male with a DSD, an intersex condition. This is a great victory for males with DSDs who think they deserve medals for beating up females.

Here is the actual IBA statement. Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Ask yourself why your news sites are lying to you and why youre so happy to believe them.

Why is such a misleading claim being featured? here is the IBA statement : https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

They explicitly say "Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors"

Why are you lying and amplifying lies while you censor responses? How do you sleep?

And its very clear that you have no idea whatsoever about any of it if you think TYT is some objective neutral and nuanced source on any of this. Theyre notorious for being incredibly biased. Try and ask cenk uyghur about the armenian genocide. Even Ana Kasparian has copped to not doing her research on gender. I havent read any right-wing sources. I have read left wing women. Theyre just the ones you do not like because they see the misogyny on the left and the right. I also you know- have eyes. I know an unfair fight when I see one. I dont need to be told to not believe my own lying eyes.

I'm on the left generally. I voted against Modi every single time. I believe in workers rights and womens rights. But I also know when im being lied to. You have a brain- use it. I swear youll still be a good person.

Angela Carini is a grown ass woman who is an olympic athlete. And yes, if you bully women enough and threaten their careers they will say what you want to make you go away. Your misogyny is showing.

How absolutely close minded it is to think that the only reason people might disagree with you is because they arent reading the right newspapers. How closeminded not to wonder what these other newspapers might be saying and what people out of your media bubble might be saying and whether they might be right.

Let me ask you a single question- do you think sources you claim are right-wing- have gotten a single issue right in the last 4 years? or do you think they all just mislead idiots? Do you think its even possible for a right wing person ( not a media organisation) to be right about anything? or do you judge what is true not by your own lying eyes but by what the party tells you to?

Your argument suffers from a key flaw. The boxer in this case is not a male, but a biologically born female, albeit with a high testosterone level. You don't get to decide who a female is, the law does. She has passed that law and hence has been allowed to compete. Whether you or other people consider her as male does not really matter. Just like it would not have mattered had she identified as a female despite being pronounced as a male under the existing law.

Very clear that y’all are reading only RW news sources on this topic. Read WaPo, Guardian, Vice, Axios and TYT. They are giving very neutral and nuanced coverage. Also, that Angela Caroni girl, or whatever her name is, has now said sorry for her behaviour and for not shaking Imane Khelif’s hand. She says she wants to apologise to her in person.

I looked it up on Wikipedia and it’s true. This is a German player who was once’s ranked 36 but slipped to 203. He took up her challenge that she could beat any top 200 men’s player, and to make a point he drank beer and smoked cigarettes before the match and even during the match he was taking cigarette breaks! He won in straight sets even then!

Addressing these disgusting accusations, though they don't deserve a response:

1. As it happens, I happen to believe that women are precisely the opposite of privileged. Biological women are a marginalised group, as are trans-women.

2. I am not getting into what the Italian boxer said.

3. I happen to not have the blinker on of thinking stereotypically about women. They can have as good reflexes, as significant strength, as biological males. They are disproportionately impacted by violence and other horrible things because of (a) entitled men who (i) think they can do; and (ii) are often allowed to do, whatever the fuck they want with women; and (b) because of useful idiots (of both sexes/genders) like you, whose minds are trapped in stereotypes.

No. Women matter more than you feeling like youre a goodie.

Saying males shouldnt be in womens sport is not excluding males from sport. Most males happily participate in male sport. And there are open categories. This is just my way or high way emotional blackmail. We've all been with a guy who claimed he would commit suicide if we didnt give him what he wants- You dont make policy because of threatened hurt feelings.

You have ZERO concern for the rights of natal women, for their right to play in fair sports and their opportunities and their basic physical safety. You think all of that should come second to the cause du jour- whatever oppression group you think is worse off. I bet you think women are privileged dont you?

Awarding handicaps wont stop women from being hit so hard that they get brain damage. Look it up thats happened. You have no leg to stand on. Theres a reason Angela Carini- say her name- shes not "the italian girl"- withdrew after 46 seconds. She said it- shes never been hit that hard in life- and shes an olympian. Shes been in plenty of matches with other women.

Your definition of progressive sure does sound like victim blaming disgusting misogyny. It is misogynistic and disgusting to claim that women who are beaten up by men are too weak, not made for sport, they dont have enough proof of violence- why isnt there more blood on her face- shes just a hysterical coward. She just made him look bad- ruined his reputation. All of that if you said that to a normal woman about a normal male you would think is disgusting. But the moment a male has a developmental disorder you think the women should be blamed?

Do you really think she went all the way to the olympics to give up in the first 46 seconds because women just are like that? Do you know how much work it would have taken? for a woman to make it to the olympics in boxing?

Even caitlyn jenner says he shouldnt be allowed in female sport. Youre so woke youve basically come out the other end as a misogynist.

You disgust me. You disgust all decent people who havent deliberately put blinkers on. Go apologise to your mom. Whatever illusions you have about being on the right side of history- start thinking of reasons why you think males beating up women for sport is a good thing.

Its not about getting knocked out- its about getting killed. No woman is consenting to a man beating her up for sport- until you can be convinced that its wrong. How misogynistic it is to claim women are cowards and weak and deceitful for not wanting men to beat them up. How do you sleep?

reasonable nice kind people who allow men to beat women up for sport. How does the cognitive dissonance not give you nausea? Healthcare? are you in america? Health care is not on the table for any party in this country. In fact- and I hate modi- but the clinics hes set up work. You have ZERO clue about anything.

From NDTV:

Indian sprinter Dutee Chand, who has been at the centre of a similar row in the past, has shared her perspective on the controversy.

"In 2014, I challenged the IOC's rule that a person with a higher testosterone level should not participate in the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Switzerland. It was noted that hormonal levels cannot increase athletic performance. I suffered a lot at that time. I faced a lot of controversy regarding my gender." Dutee Chand told PTI.

"Yesterday, during the Olympic match, (Angela) Carini gave up and now she is complaining about the Algerian boxer because of high testosterone levels. When you play in the Olympics, you undergo several tests. I don't think it is right to create controversy about this social media." she added.

https://sports.ndtv.com/olympics-2024/faced-controversy-regarding-my-gender-indias-dutee-chand-reacts-to-olympics-boxing-controversy-6247298#pfrom=home-ndtv_topstories

Yes. Allow right wing trolls like you into the lives of typical, reasonable, nice people, who have a reasonable level of mental strength, and see those nice, reasonable, kind people go broke with astronomical medical bills, all of which are the result of the constant need for mental health medication prescription. See that happen over and over again.

Hello friends. Let us remember that we went to law school and not medical school, and should not be talking about issues like this with such conviction when we don’t have the expertise to do so. Reading a few sensational articles, or even a couple of research papers on the topic, will not equip you with the nuanced knowledge needed to comment on something so complicated as the human body :)

I request everyone not to be swayed by social media. The IOC has given a statement to this, saying that chromosomes are not a perfect test to determine sex. Many eminent gender studies scholars have said the same thing. Why can’t we trust them? Also, let’s wait till the entire Olympics is over. If she is defeated, then it means she doesn’t have the advantage that all of you are saying that she has. Angela Carini is not a high ranked boxer. Let’s see how she fares against one of the top seeds and then judge.

Born female. Genitals female. Passport female. IOC female. Chromosome XY MALE ..still allowed to participate..Duh hur..STFU.. The Italian was just crying cause she couldn't outmaneuver her with skills. On the contrary the Algerian has lost 6 times before, never had been a problem then. All of you are just pissy Right winger foxes in left wing clothings. Now you demand equality when you get punched in the nose. She has fairly qualified for the Olympics. She was given an NOC by the IOC despite failing the chromosome test. She's a women who beat another women and the women beaten was a white euro roastie who couldn't handle being beat by an African.

The first part of your comment is correct (that this is comparable with Caster Semenya, who is intersex with internal testes)but the second part of your comment is wrong (that this means she should compete in male categories and it’s unfair to make her compete in the women’s category). The moderator has rightly marked your comment as contested.

People like you need to understand something. The I in LGBTQIA+ is specifically meant for intersex people. We need to show such people empathy and include them in sport, rather than exclude them. Remember that they were born this way, it’s not their choice. This happens a lot in poor and underdeveloped countries, where doctors and society are not properly trained in LGBTQIA+ issues, and so classify people as male or female, instead of non-binary.

The solution is to allow non-binary people to compete in the category of their choice. In this case, it’s female and that’s fine. At most, a certain handicap to the opponent may be given where the person is physically much stronger. For example, Caitlin Jenner was a champion runner in the male category, before she came out as trans and had gender reassignment surgery. Suppose she came out earlier and wanted to compete as a woman. She should have been allowed, but a handicap of 1 second or so could have been given to her opponents (which is a lot in running). Similarly, Kheluf’s opponents can be given a handicap in terms of blows landed.

The IOA has taken a progressive step and needs to be applauded rather than criticised. I must also say that I was not pleased with the attitude of the Italian girl. She should not have humiliated Khelif in public, given the violence and trauma non-binary people face. There is also nothing in the video to show that she was badly hurt: no bruises, no blood. No confirmation that her nose broken. I’m sorry, but I doubt the bona fides of her withdrawal.

Lets be very clear about whats happening in this case.

Imane Khelif is not transgender. There is no gender identity involved in this case. There is no testosterone suppression, there is no gender reassignment of any sort. Imane Khelif has failed a sex test that was not a testosterone test. It was a chromosomal test. Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes. It is probable Imane Khelif has a disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition) called alpha 5 reductase deficiency. What this means is that his body doesnt absorb testosterone as a normal mans does. That does not make Imane Khelif less of a man. ▮▮▮ disorder specifically happens only to people with XY chromosomes- males. It does not happens to females- xx chromosomes This is also what Caster Semanya has. These men knew at the onset of puberty that they were male. they might have had underdeveloped genetalia at birth which is when ignorant doctors assign female at birth- but they are not actually female. They are fully male. and they knew they are fully male when they signed up to compete against females. They can on occassion impregnate women and reproduce.

Imane Khelif had been twice before disqualified from participating in womens sport ▮▮▮ . the Olympics committee decided that the appropriate test was what was on your passport. If the laws in your country allow you to lie on your passport- then womens sport will not mean a thing.

Males and Females are built different. I know that hurts are egalitarian sentiments- but you cannot argue with nature. Males typically are larger, stronger, faster. If a man and a woman weigh the same- the man will have 152% more punching power. Not to mention longer arms, bigger heart size, quicker reflexes, bigger lung size and more muscle mass. It is simply unfair to women to make them compete with men. Anyone who actually watched the match without ideologically blinked glasses, who saw fallon fox brutalise a woman can see that thats true.

Women shouldnt have to face death every time they want to compete in combat sports. Women will opt out if that is the choice.

Sex segregated sports exists for this reason- to allow for fair competition rather than to exclude a tiny minority who no one knew about ten years ago. Not everything in the world is about your pet cause. Segregating sex in sport is about protecting women.

Just because males with DSDs or transgender identified males are excluded from womens sport doesnt mean they are excluded from sport or that the women outraged by this are all bigots. People with DSDs and transgender identities who are male are welcome to compete in open categories or in male categories. Inclusion cannot be such an overarching value that it trumps fairness or equality. There are limits to inclusion.

If Imane Khelif and what happened today because of this ▮▮▮ in womens sport is any indication, one can only imagine that fully intact developed males claiming they are women because of some "internally felt sense of womanhood" would and should face much more backlash. Its not fair. Women matter, their safety and their opportunities matter. The world isnt divided into males and everyone else. Women exist. Females exist as an entirely independent category.

If you saw a man beat up a woman today and didnt feel revulsion- if you thought it was no big deal, or if you dismissed it as right wing agenda- you need to take a good hard look at what your values are and ask yourself just how much of a blind eye are you willing to turn to womens rights to please males.

Moderator, please allow this discussion. Not only is this trending, but it is surely going to end up in the Swiss Court of Arbitration sooner or later, like the Lia Thomas case (who has now been banned from women's swimming). Unlike swimming, there is a real chance of injury, as we saw today.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/01/olympic-womens-boxing-live-imane-khelif-paris-2024/

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-seconds-against-imane-khelif

https://x.com/oliverbrown_tel/status/1818966842804703393