https://www.barandbench.com/news/calcutta-high-court-1-per-cent-reservation-transgender-persons-public-employment

How many more quotas do we need? Also, how is it possible to say who is trans? Is anyone who identifies as the opposite sex trans? Or do you have to undergo gender reassignment surgery?

Unconstitutional. Reservations based on sex must be authorized by a constitutional amendment. In any case, reservations are not a fundamental right per an SC judgment, so you cannot require the state to provide reservations. The power to give reservations is permissive, not mandatory.

Its not based on sex. Hijras are very clearly castrated males. Theres no real dispute about that. A castrated male doesnt automatically become a female, in the same way that if you spay a dog he doesnt become a bitch. This is reservation based on membership in a "community". a community which in itself cannot be properly defined because the basis for membership is self ID. The proper close analogy is a religious community. We dont have reservations for religions in this country yet.

what does gender mean? I know yall like to think NALSA is some revelation from god that completely explains the whole world. But please explain to me what is the difference between Gender and Sex? what are the other two genders? what social roles are people in the other two genders performing? what about the gender of Hijras makes them not male? And explain to me how saying Hijras are castrated males is wrong?
Exactly what are the requirements to fit into "third gender" category? what is a "transgender?" Do "transgender" people change sex?

Answering any of these questions with any degree of clarity is better than constantly telling people to consult your wordy texts, whether thats NALSA or J Butler- both of whom i have read and have had no trouble understanding. Resist the urge to appeal to authority.

Okay then. Some transgenders are intersex people who have both male and female genitalia due to biological abnormalities. Intersex people constitute the third gender. For the longest time, intersex people were not separately recognized as a sex even though they are, biologically, neither male nor female. The NALSA judgment merely recognized intersex people as the third gender. Intersex is not popularly used and often confused with the term transgender. Whether biological basis or not, a person may choose to identify as male, female, or the third gender.

You're completely wrong. Its embarrassing, you should educate yourself. According to the All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha, something like 95% of hijras are castrated males, not people born with genetic/ biological abnormalities. Its extremely dis-ingenous to claim that hijras are intersex then isnt it? Until this new political wave- members of the all india hijra kalyan sabha were in the supreme court begging the court to step in and stop forced castrations on minors and destitute men. We all have memories that go back farther than 2014 and we have google. you can look this up.

Intersex people dont want to be a third gender, they want to assimilate into society and not be subjected to unnecessary medical treatments. Intersex people are not " biologically neither male nor female". Most intersex people clearly are either male or female, there are like five kinds of intersex conditions ( of which there are thirty odd specific conditions). Most of these conditions only happen to one of the two sexes. Even with the conditions that happen to both sexes, most intersex people are actually male or female and this is clearly discernible, because they are on a developmental pathway that leads to reproducing via large gametes (ova) or small gametes (sperm), even if that pathway is interrupted by congenital conditions. many intersex people dont know they are intersex until late adolescence. There isnt a person alive today, nor has there been a person alive, who wasnt on the pathway to produce ova or sperm. There is no person who produces both or a mix, theres no person who reproduces via sperg or spegg. There are many people male and female who produce neither eggs nor sperm- that doesnt stop them from being male or female. Castrated bulls do not become cows. Colin Wright and Richard Dawkins have both said things to this effect, you can look it up.

Trying to argue that hijras or transgenders are all intersex is coopting a medical condition for political aims. Its like faking a disability to get out of the draft or to get to use dedicated parking spaces. And these groups are at odds. Trans identified people want to change their biology and get "sex change" operations, not just for themselves but even for other peoples children. intersex people dont want medicalisation by and large and are trying to resist forced medicalisation- this last is even in supriyo. Trans people want to be known as third gender, intersex people dont. Trans identified people want to remove sex segregation as a policy, intersex people dont.

The NALSA judgment doesnt merely recognise intersex people as third gender. Have you read NALSA? where does it say you need to be diagnosed with a genetic condition for you to be "third gender"? It recognises that a man- fully a man, a man who has had children and a wife, functioning reproductive organs and all- can "identify" as a woman. To do so he needs neither castration, nor "sex change" surgeries nor nail polish and make up and a spinny skirt. He literally just needs to say it. That is what the import of NALSA is- self ID. This is not based on anything biological at all, its based in a soul claim about self perception and an "inner perception of self". The claim is that you can either be a girly barbie or a manly GI joe, and anyone who doesnt identify with that has to go on a gender journey to figure out the gender of their soul, and that that "gender identity" is what forms the basis on which the law should recognise you. Im assuming you are a complex person, which gender does your soul have? are you a girly barbie or a manly GI Joe? Can souls only have gender? can souls have race and caste and all that? why are so many souls born in the wrong body? who is putting souls in the wrong bodies? to believe in gender identity- you not only have to believe in a soul, you also have to believe in a god, and a god that makes mistakes. And you have to fundamentally believe that womens souls are just different than mens souls, that socially constructed gender goes down to the core essence of who we are. If you believe that- you can be persuaded to believe that women are just not cut out for work and education and should do womanly things like baking and childcare.

What does identifying as a male/ female/ third gender without a biological basis mean? what are you identifying as? How does a male born in a male body having male genetalia know what it is to be a female? He can feel discomfort in his body- we all feel discomfort in our bodies. But how does he know what being female is about? Is there an explanation that you can provide that doesnt rely on ugly social stereotypes that dehumanise women? I am female , because ive only ever been in a female body, I have been very uncomfortable and distressed at my female body- but I cannot begin to tell you what it would be to be male anymore than i could tell you what it was to be a 6'5 black guy- its just not an experience I will have. How do males know theyre "really female on the inside"?

Why is gender the one area where you can identify in and out of a group without any biological basis? Why not race? why not disability? why not caste? Why can I not identify as a dalit if being called a brahmin causes me great distress? Why can I not identify as a wheel chair user if walking around makes me feel great distress? With every other characteristic the law protects- its an immutable characteristic that youre just born into. This is clearly not immutable no? the claim is that its fluid so in fact- very mutable, should the law protect mutable characteristics as if they were immutable?

Please explain- what is gender? what is the difference between gender and sex? what are the roles behaviours that people in other two genders are doing that we need third gender? Do you know the difference or will you keep confusing sex and gender?

>appeal to authority

Bruh precident is appeal to authority?

Gender is social, sex is medial differentiation.

Other 2 are male and female

Provisions for men and woman is provided by law, no need to conduct a sociological study

They dress and act different. They say they aren't men. Most people don't think they are men.

It's wrong because the context is beyond a simple medical description in the present case

Yes actually. Citing precedent without knowing what the judgment says or why or even understanding the reasoning is the definition of an appeal to authority.

If gender is a social role and sex is based on biology. Please explain to me what social role men or women are playing in society. What is the social role that transgender women feel like they’re playing that they should be lumped in with cis women ? Explain how it’s not based on stereotypes?

What are provisions for men and women provided by law ? Be specific ? As far as I know the constitution prohibits discrimination based on sex except to provide protections for females in certain areas. Do we not think that women - females - deserve protection from sex based crimes and deserve maternity benefits and deserve investment in all women schools and colleges ? Do you think it’s unfair that men don’t get to use those ?

So anyone who isn’t following a male dress code or behaves effeminately isn’t a man ? Most gay men dress and act differently- some gay men are extremely flamboyant - do you think they aren’t men ? Should we let the most orthodox and bigoted members of society decide what men and women are ? If a little boy wants to play with dolls should we rush him to get medically altered so he’s now a “girl”? That seems the opposite of progressive no ? Most Indian men don’t have body builder bodies - are they not men then ? If a man is born with a micro penis ( an intersex condition btw) is he not a man ?

If it’s just saying you’re not a man - why is it limited to gender ? Can I say I’m a Dalit and claim reservations ? Can I say I’m black ? Can I say I identify as wealthy and the bank has to give me money ? It’s the only identity group you can identify into ? Why ? Do souls have genders ?

Male and female are not genders. Male and female are about sex. Like I explained, most hijras are castrated males. Do you think castration means that a man is no longer a man and is infact a woman? If someone dresses and acts a certain way and people go along with it- thats all it should take to be able to go into a womans space whether thats a bathroom, a girls only school, a rape crisis centre , a spa or a prison? Acting a certain way should allow you to claim the womens quotas? Do other people have rights? Do women get to keep their words to themselves? so they can talk about their problems?

There are schizophrenics who think that theyre actually a dog or a chicken- does that sincere belief make them a dog or a chicken? Clearly its not just self perception that makes identity. If most of society would look at a butch lesbian and call her a man- does she become a man? is she no longer a woman because society has tarnished her that way? clearly its not external validation either. If most of society believes that a flying monkey god moved a mountain for an herb- or if most of society believes we should stone gay people- does that make those things true? Should we be basing laws on beliefs of this nature that are unevidenced and have no basis in material reality?

The judiciary is captured by this gender woo woo. The NALSA judgment is barely coherent and goes well into judicial overreach. This judgment - im not sure, but if the legislature hasnt made constitutional amendments and passed a law that allows for changing the reservation scheme, how can a high court then legislate by citing NALSA? Unelected judges should not be driving policy changes. And groups that approach the court with these undemocratic proposals, CLPR chief among them , that require judges to legislate, they should be seen as authoritarians seeking to subvert democracy.

I dont have a problem with a 1% reservation in theory, but it should be limited to hijras and Kinnars, and it should be voted on by elected legislators. Not everyone who claims the identity without having any surgery or history of exclusion should be able to benefit- but of course our laws allow for self ID so that is fucked. I'll also say- the transgender community is remarkably inconsistent and opportunistic on this (no surprises there), theyve stood for elections from constituencies reserved for women in panchayat elections and at the same time theyve claimed they need reservation for their own group, individuals have changed which group they want to claim reservation under multiple times. It seems to me that if transgenders have a reservation of 1%, then they should stay out of the womens quotas. Even if they dont have reservation of 1% they should still stay out of the womens quota. That particular reservation was created for a reason, to help a specific group. Not to serve trans identified males.

It also seems to me that we need to have a serious adult conversation on what hijras and kinnars are and why is it that they can credibly claim to be excluded from employment and education. As far as I understand, there are no laws that are allowing for discrimination based on gender expression. If you look at history, hijras and kinnars are castrated men who have isolated themselves because theyre in a religious cult. That is the "guru-chela" system that they speak about. The castration is a religious sacrifice for their god. Nobody in mainstream society has forced these men to do this to themselves or to stay in the cult, very often they are kidnapped by older members of the hijra/kinnar community as children. Now if this is just a religious cult that has deliberately isolated itself and decided, as a result of that isolation, that they should live off of begging and prostitution- then I'm not certain a reservation, however tiny, would actually help them. We dont provide reservations to all the cults in india who have isolate themselves from mainstream society. The reservation logic is specifically based on a history of outcasteing/ exclusion from mainstream society. Hijra / Kinnar is not really a caste, its a cult that people choose for themselves, but a dalit person isnt choosing to be dalit- and dalit exclusion isnt self imposed. These two categories are not the same. It will not do for trans to appropriate caste based oppression.

Perhaps what would help them is preventing and prosecuting kidnapping and forcible castration. and dismantling these prostitution and beggary rings and investing in teaching these people skills and giving them adult education so they can become productive members of society and do jobs other than beggary or prostitution.

Reservation is a specific remedy for a specific problem. I dont really see how reservations alone can solve the problems hijras and kinnars face. But if someone can show me how reservations are supposed to help these men come of out their cult- im happy to allow for a 1% reservations for hijras and kinnars and not on the basis of self id. Perhaps we should collect data to show whether and why there is exclusion. All studies I have read on employment and education for Hijras is remarkably poor quality, and it doesnt really show that hijras are unfairly excluded.

I think perhaps we could have a non discrimination law that makes sure that these men are not excluded from society because of their gender expression. That they dont face discrimination in public employment or education. In general we need a civil non discrimination law for other groups anyway, I dont think having to go to the high court/ supreme court every time for a violation of A 14, 15,16 is a good remedy.

so youre just gonna dismiss the argument because of grammar and punctuation? on a post on a website called "legallyindia" where things like "how should i get back at my ex after a bitter breakup?" and "should I sleep with my female boss" are discussed?

It is quite elitist to claim that one must have perfect punctuation and grammar to speak truth to the most powerful court in the land no? Or elitism is okay when it helps your biases?

Your best defence for that atrocious judgment is that its "well drafted"? and not "well reasoned"? I think that there says all of it no. Try and say something actually substantive next time. If your ideas are so great, why not try and actually convince other people through evidence and argument instead of dismissing them?