We want LI to be one of the friendliest places on the internet, where lawyers and law students help each other with their career related queries and occasionally discuss other stuff that might affect their lives too. In other words:
1. Be kind, respectful and helpful to each other.
2. Be bona fide, truthful, genuine and curious.
3. Assume the best intention of others.
Therefore, in using the site, you must agree to do your best to uphold these community guidelines.
Note that what you find here is written and moderated by anonymous people on the internet.
Therefore everything you read here is very likely unverified, rumour, speculation and/or downright false.
In continuing to read anything here, you must therefore agree not to take anything you read here as factual and that you will exercise due caution, diligence and common sense before acting on any information you may come across here.
You also agree to report any inaccurate or malicious comments with the buttons. Moderators take action within 24 hours, as required and appropriate under law.
Our full terms and conditions apply too.
Do you solemnly agree to all of the above?
It's a simple excel sheet job but prone to mistakes.
Always a good practice to keep the calculation in Excel sheet and have a senior cross check the data along with the formulas and calculation.
I wonder why no mid level associate/ SA/ PA cross checked the data and checked the calculation. It's not rocket science but has to be done meticulously because it's easy to make silly mistakes.
From time to time a partner will have to rely on juniors
Juniors in firms like CAM are well paid for a reason
If they can’t do their part appropriately they should be fired
Many times seniors find it hard to fire people and out of misplaced compassion end up berating them instead as a punishment
It never work
Just fire the damn guy with a smile instead- berating won’t change him
https://x.com/Svyamm/status/1770694354044330183?s=20
If a ship sinks, it is the captain who gets guillotined first. Their literal responsibility is for the team. That is their primary job description. You cannot reap all the benefits and externalise the costs.
I do not know how big the competition practice at CAM is but pretty sure that the partner does not have 7.5 lakh people employed in the team. Sure, your argument works for Ratan Tata but stop giving ridiculous examples.
Companies are paying big bucks because they trust the said partner.
It is a spineless thing for a partner to not back his team no matter how badly they fucked up.
This partner in question is paid an insane amount of money to send out documents that reflect "excellence and value", despite which she literally didn't bother to check the documents and the math that went out. She IS the lower management you talk of. Partners going around LI pretending to be entrepreneurs is hilarious. Y'all are wageslaves like the rest of us, act like it.
Yes they do. When you on sea and you piss off the crew and lose their confidence. They don't guillotine you, but they do make you walk a plank. It is clear that a partnership is the only ship you've ever served on.
how to convince a law firm or even a chamber to give him even 1/3 the salary while everyone is worried he may leak emails (or who knows maybe audios/videos too?)
Even if they are not fired immediately to avoid more publicity they will be let go of sooner than later
You know this if you worked at any organisation forget a law firm
These kids need to take responsibility for their actions instead of finding excuses in the name of toxicity.
When a Partner relies on your work, they put their reputation on the line because they trust you.
AK...way to go girl. You got the shizz!
(Not grandstanding on the ethics/ HR aspects of team management - am sure clients/ litigation law firms/ other legal service units - all have some crappy situations too)
Don’t work in law if you think otherwise
Based on the logic of all the other rookie associates, who are downvoting anything in favour of AK, it should LegallyIndia's fault that such a false comment (i.e., the comment claiming caste remark) was even allowed to be published.
PS - this email, in my opinion, is the least toxic thing that any boss could ever say to their junior. Out of all the toxic things that could have been highlighted about the law firm life, this hardly deserves to be controversial. What else do you expect to hear if you not only behave unprofessionally but also fuck up the work product?
PPS - READ, because when we READ, we REMEMBER!
- Year of graduation: 2003
- College: ILS
- Legal publications: A book with an ISBN, but no publisher mentioned (Google suggests that the publishing house is called "Snow White Publications" and based in Mumbai).
- Other achievements: "She is a published novelist"
https://www.cyrilshroff.com/people/avaantika-kakkar/
- Publisher : Line By Lion Publications; First edition (23 July 2016)
: https://www.amazon.in/Place-Called-Delirium-Avaantika-Kakkar-ebook/dp/B01IZ4F8Q8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36EKCCDYJJBHQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.AyDUFXSOZjAAI8JYn5PXKG9IFcKUUyyqiK5EyImMiZHGjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.eCWdba82I3dIeMMsT47rrDJJm_KglI4y-xdsY4bzJNI&dib_tag=se&keywords=a+place+called+delirium&qid=1710998124&s=books&sprefix=a+place+called+delirium%2Cstripbooks%2C180&sr=1-1
What a dick move to leak an internal email
juniors need to be reliable and go find another job, this holds true even where people are paid 25k per month, but especially if you are paid the best salary in the country
Hope this clarifies
Bhai tere logic se toh - market share associate dekhega, corporate info SA dekhega, substantial arguments PA dekhega. Aur tu [assuming, you're a partner] kya dekhega? Client ka paisa? Uss se kharidi hui shauharat? Get real dude.
Unfortunately - most law firm partners today are first to steal all the credit when things go well, but when shit goes south - blame the team. I wonder how these buffoons sleep at night. Truly disturbing that we're living among such disgusting, immoral fools - who are "mentors" to the next generation of lawyers. Lol.
P.s. - not from CAM. But effected by foolish partners, PAs with a similar attitude.
If you get paid for work know your place and do it
If you are an associate in a T1 firm and expect recognition etc you are a fool
Just do your work keeping your head down you make partner in 10 years hopefully
If you want to be the star overnight go open your own law firm
While you are working for a partner your job is to make that partner successful or you are out
Always remember that there are others eagerly waiting to take your place
Don’t delude yourself
None of this is rocket science, it just requires diligence- if you don’t have that go find another profession 😄
Who are you devta/devi
Its not humanly possible
They have to hire people whose work does not require much review
And fire those whose work needs a great deal of review
Buck stops at the Partner. When she is signing draft for filing, she is responsible for every letter in it.
So she will choose the right team
So you know who gets fired
Hint: its not the partner 😂
From what it seems they are there fair and square. The firm needed these maharathis as much as they need them. Stop calling hardwork luck
Drop this attitude. The firm is lucky to have hardworking associates. In the US, employers are seen as depending on associates as the associates on the firm.
#90skidsarethebest
Instant karma..She tried to publicly humiliate her juniors and ended up getting a taste of her own medicine.
The simple option could've been to fire them or ask them to leave, instead of publicly humiliating them which only and only serves 1 purpose- satisfying the ego of the partner with
Were these kids so "influential" that an equity partner couldn't handle her team and had to call them out in front of everyone?
Another thing, if the market share calculation was so imp, why wasn't it checked at other levels.
Also, what was so catastrophic about making a mistake? Don't people make mistakes? Most of our fees comes from someone making a mistake somewhere. If people started churning out perfect work (which currently even AI is incapable of) lawyers would lose their jobs first.
This was nothing but an ego powerplay from a partner who values her own reputation over everything and treats here juniors like servants.
Avaantika needs to review everything leaving her desk a thousand times over. If there was a mistake in some math, it's her responsibility to catch it when Associates send the draft internally for review. Those Associates didn't sign on the draft filed with CCI, she or another partner did.
As someone on client side, I would be livid and fire them immediately. Simple professional responsibility aside, what exactly am I paying Partner rates and many billable hours for if this is the draft filed at the end of it?
Also, Murthy is not comparable to her. Is the head of a vertical/manager at infy not reviewing the work of the subordinates? That is the parallel to be drawn here
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0bwiuHlqkWk
If you read the email in detail you Will understand that’s it not only work quality issues but also work demeanour issues. For a partner to berate a senior because of him being disrespectful to his teammates, being sarcastic and throwing stinker at partners is actually taking a stand for the juniors who are subjected to such casual bullying. Passive aggressiveness and bullying is what she has called out.
If you think it’s only because of the work quality no it’s more of an attitude issue which led to such bad work quality and reason why she went all guns blazing. Had this been someone else with a proper working attitude the tone and the consequences would have been less severe.
If you see closely she is actually asking to not be disrespectful to teammates, not show passive aggression and not be sarcastic. Dont know how any of these are wrong
She stood for her team and called out the persons attitude, which IMHO is rare these days.
A few of us who are now a bit senior in the profession flourished in an environment of empowerment (with all the regular aspects of a professional setting, including humility) which good seniors provided us.
However, when that same environment was passed on to the the latest generation, it translated into a sense of entitlement that they now possess. It's saddening to think that a cultural shift occurred so quickly in this profession where juniors feel they are entitled, and can continue in this profession with bad attitudes and sub-par work.
Happy to receive comments criticizing the above observation - but will be happy (also) if someone understands the issue.
by way of full disclosure, I'm not from an NLU but still very successful!!
And you think NLU people are special? Ms. Avantika Kakkar joined a prestigious law school at a time when there were only three NLUs out of which two just opened their shops, thus presuming did not have a campus of their own.
Yet, having all this evidence with me ,I know what the consequences are if I raise my voice. Please let's not forget viral AZB resignation letter.
Change will begin if Avantika gets fired for her behaviour. There the onus of being held accountable for your actions will start and all partners in firms will fear putting their juniors through this.
Kakkar is well known for her unapologetic rudeness in the legal and client community. Only a bully knows another bully so well. Building a name in the field doesn’t give one a free pass to butcher your team mates publicly.
No one is a saint in this scenario.
Grow up world, and get a life. Get your houses in order (personal and professional) before you get to judge someone else.
As a partner, what she did is RIGHT, and those who are not privy to the facts, stay away. This should be the least of your concerns.
NO ONE ever called out the person who leaked a confidential email, which is meant only for the team. Its called a team for a reason. This is a massive trust issue. And THAT should have been the concern. If the person can't keep a team email confidential, how are they to be trusted with work? Or otherwise?
Worse shit happens in other places and people bury it 10 feet deep. Or ignore it. And here you are finding fault with a partner who called out juniors for their unprofessionalism and attitude. If you're telling me you've never been yelled at by a colleague, senior, or client, you're fooling yourself and everyone else.
I can name partners who are toxic on the inside, and make life miserable for their team, but are all decked up and smiles on the outside. I've worked with someone who screams their heart out and abuses you for no real reason, just to show who the boss is.
If you're touchy about criticism and feedbacks, sorry friends, please stay away from the professional circles.
If any of you even cared about the persons named in the email, their mental peace, wellbeing, career and life in general, you wouldn't be circulating the email, or reading it, or letting your tongue loose.
SHAME ON YOU ALL.
In any profession, if you can't deliver good work, then you either need to buck up or leave.
Its so easy to label things as toxic, without actually understanding or being privy to facts.
There is NO justification for sharing it - whoever shared it has scarred the people more than the email would've ever did. Period.
No one is indispensable - however, that doesn't give anyone a free pass to harass people or deliver poor quality work.
GenZ needs to stop being touchy about everything said and done which doesn't align with their expectations.
Any team can't and shouldn't rely on an associate to prepare it and finalise it. A senior level lawyer must must check the data no matter how cumbersome they find it.
If it's that important you must give it that much importance.
In my associate days even though I was excellent with handling data and maths my seniors never let out any work product out without running by the data once. At least once. They would simply ask for the excel sheet, check my calculations and the source of data (client, target or open source).
Understood AK being the practice head won't have had the time to check but what about the second rung partners/ PAs/ SAs. (Apparently the team has a practice of not hiring mid level associates/ SAs. That's such a stupid move. It will definitely cost you more in longer term.)
Nobody's talent, if so, gives them a free reign to treat other people like shit.
Ahahahahahahaha
Are you a lawyer? What world do you live in? “Police Case” Ahahahahahaha 🤣
1. Associates, need to get better. Both on the work front and behaviour front. While mordern- non-hierarchical structures and behaviour is good, there's sound value and reason in age old customs and practices.
2. Partners and their immediate reports (counsels/PAs), sure as hell, need to invest in training associates and no, this doesn't mean packing them off to do theoretical KM/CLE/leadership sessions.
3. Partners and other senior resources, managing teams and associates, should be told categorically, that bad behaviour with associates, is not ACCEPTABLE. Bad work? Just say bad work, once, twice and thrice and then be done with the associate. Don't shit over them - gets you nothing, and sure as hell, won't get them to work better.
4. Reverse reviews (juniors to seniors), should really be explored. Develop a conversation culture, where a senior is able to say bad work and the junior gets to say why and what they think the senior could have done better to help them do better work.
5. Resources with consistently bad feedback on behaviour (terror banda/Bandi hai), should almost invariably, never be made partner- unless they have a huge damn book, and are willing to service their own book with them tripling up as associates, Partners and PAs.
6. Associates, should buck up. Realise that this is not a game. Their work, affects their seniors reputation. Their health and life, even potentially.
7. Law firm management /top leadership should stop acting as if they don't read these comments and pick up suggestions, which seem remotely sensible. Instead of just playing the let it die down game and then eventually, this repeats all over again.
If CAM asks her she will do it
Then poor fellows will be eased out in next 3-4 months as public moves on 😂
Irony writ large
Better late than never.
Moderator please publish this
1. With regards to the mistake. People make mistakes and that is why things are checked again and again in a law firm when the stakes are high. And the stakes are high when disclosures are made to a regulator. In the current case, the responsibility lies both with the juniors and the partner leading the matter. While i don't expect AK (or her equivalent) in other firms to cross check every part of the data (and market share calculations can be extensive), the hands-on partner must have had checked this. While mistakes must be addressed, and culprits must be rebuked, it must not be turned in a circus with audience, which AK has done in this email. That is unprofessional. At best, the entire team should have got the load-down.
2. With regards the attitude approach - First i really appreciate AK addressing the issue. toxic behaviour not only damages overall moral, it also causes good resources to leave and makes training juniors harder. People who acts like God's gift to mankind in a team are largely the ones who are very problematic. Having said that, the feedback should not have gone out like this. As AK says, this should not be like a cinema where she is playing for the crowd. While it is important that the team knows that toxic members are dealt with, AK could have word with the members privately and then informed the team that the issue has been addressed, and if specific examples persist to privately bring them up with her and if necessary, the perpetrator. This is not to say that AK had not spoken to these guys earlier in a private conversation. If she did and the attitude didn't change, it was time to let these people go. That would be the professional way. While she stood up to bullying - she did it in a way which would make bullies around the world swell with pride. That's the sad part here.
Anyways, this will die down, and I hope AK continues to have the teams back, but in a more nuanced fashion. I hope folks like the people mentioned in the email learn their lessons.