Hi, I am a litigating lawyer and making this thread for and on behalf of students (and graduates) from Non-NLU Local Colleges , Native of T-3/4/5 Cities.
I want to let readers of LI and extended legal fraternity know that our situation is very hopeless and helpless.
Most of us did not get to know about corporate law firms until it was very too late. Due to severe FOMO we start to litigate and dont get a decent shot at law firms. Many of my friends still dont know names of corporate law firms and different practise areas. Like they say, It takes a whole village to raise a child. In other words, a child is sum total of his circumstances and surrondings.
Unlike branded colleges and NLUs , our CVs dont look so shiny with internships and publications.
Most of us join litigation with hope of making it big one day, but you all know the success ratio and the pay in Seniors Chamber. Though we are from far flung areas but cost of living is not much lesser in our city as far as lower middle/middle class standard is considered. Just that some of us have decent home to call our own and we dont have to spend so much on Metro. That definitely gets saved.
Some students try their luck in Judicial services and ADPO/APP exams but again that is a game of chance (at least prelims).
I am writing this thread to get constructive opinion of Top Industry Professionals (Partners, HRs,MPs) to get their opinion on our class of people.
I now find the hype around NLUs have made the freshers quite difficult to work with. Although some of them do come with the advantages of better education, their bad attitude is not worth it. I would much rather recruit from non-NLUs, local Unis because most of law can be taught to A0s. You just need diligence, and in the beginning, have to be willing to make it your entire life.
NLU or Non NLU, you will always get some chance, somewhere, and once you have a foot in the door, you will need to demonstrate your diligence. Rest of the doors will open automatically.
Down to learn. Just need right mentoring and a bit of time (and patience). Can Intern if given the chance. I have started to despise the Court/Litigation Drill. Even If I win a matter, It goes on multiple rounds of litigation at HC / SC . Sheer Waste of Time. Waste of Talent. I am here to learn , excel and earn .
He would much rather recruit from non-law and local unis, but he won't. No tier 1 firm will. Don't listen to this BS. I've gone through this circus too many times to know the lion is man who identifies as one. Best bet for us Non-NLU is litigation, judiciary, PhD from abroad, even UPSC. The amount of gate keeping law firms are now doing is ridiculous. And this will get worse. So don't hedge your bets on these so called partners.
I am actually not a Partner of a T1 ( more of an aspiring T1). You are right that the law firms have a ridiculous amount of gate keeping, which some of us are trying to change. If you give up on trying, it most definitely will not change. Some of my fellow partners feel the same way, re recruiting from NLU vs non-NLU. You are wrong when you say that I won't recruit from non-NLUs. I only recruit from non-NLUs (I started the career hoping to not have a bias, but now I do prefer non-NLUs). Having said that, one Partner cannot change the Firm. Try to calm down with the hating..
Pls mention way to talk, Sir (used gender neutrally). I am not exactly seeking for a job rightaway. I am seeking for a way to walk on.
I can become useful for a partner / firm. I will just take few minutes of your time every few weeks and do what you tell me to do.
A kind of mentorship - if you will. I am at the verge of giving up on law field. So, if you would like to connect, pls drop a throwaway email or anonymous telegram link and we can take it from there. Alternatively, you may ask for my link to connect.
If you're really ambitious then it's worth it. You'll succeed eventually. But if you don't have that fire/hustle in you, then best to cut your losses and aim for a good MBA.
Hi, It would have been helpful if you could also mention your ex. Just because of Trolls on LI these days we are specifically looking for insights from seasoned Industry Professionals.
Anyway, I firmly believe that Indian Youth is one of the hardest working professionals around the world. So, there's hardly any need to think twice. Just tell us the 'hustle road to heaven' - we are down ! :) We are aiming for Corporate Law Jobs.
Now this is suspect. If you are so confident and aiming for "corporate law jobs", what have you done so far to demonstrate relevant interest or capabilities? You say you found out about thus sector late, have you done any internship (at independent practioner/boutique/T3 or below firms)?
I have recruited so many people from such backgrounds but they showed drive/persistence.
Hi, Got to know about corporate Law jobs / Firms only in 2022. Like I said , Had appeared for Judicial services exams since late 2020 with litigation experience (9 am to 12pm daily)
On another note, our case becomes the classic 'no internship-> no job' , 'no job->no internship/relevant work ex'. As far as drive is concerned , we can only show you drive once our internship is confirmed. Not before.
The original post did mention that our state does not have any law firm or independent practitioner (even the title highlights that). People like me have applied to many places but not getting any response.
Constructive comments help you are just repeating the same thing like everybody else.
1) There are only few of them and hence they run their own show. Needless to mention, the community is tight knight and due to which it becomes a challenge for jobseekers and those who are working with them. I am sure, the conscience of professionals in law firm feel suffocated a lot of times.
2) Even if candidates like me get a Masters from NLUs then also, firms will not allow us an entry. Law firms in India have highly restrictive policies. I am not sure why calibre of a person has to be judged from internships Solely.
At this point of time, law students in this country are absolutely gaga over internships. So much for internships that most of the students are hardly even picking up textbooks.
3) Restrictive policies of Firms immediately make such jobs SCARCE and ELITE . It becomes a job for which there is only one GOLDEN chance and GOLDEN GATE.
Compare this with open market and free policy of someone like a computer science graduate ? The job market is so free .
Corporate law is hardly the be-all-and-end-all that you're making it out to be. I would have done thing very differently if I knew what I know now - I would have probably done an MBA and tried for consulting or PE or IB. In my opinion, the work they do is more interesting than corporate law work, where we are just typing monkeys. However, I didn't know about these opportunities when I was in college (or for 1 - 2 years after I started working), and I graduated from what you would now call a "tier 1" law school.
Don't let the kids on LI make it seem like its butterflies and rainbows or that they're dealing with the high and the mightly or that they are the movers and shakers of large transasactions. They are none of that. They're typing away a clause or formatting an agreement at 1am in their cubicle - something that no one else will ever read. Most kids with 2/3 years of work experience don't know their arse from their elbow.
You're right now blinded by what seems snazzy from the outside. "M ampersand A" sounds cool but it is drab work with uncertain hours and mind numbing due diligence. As a corporate law firm lawyer, you are always obsequious with your clients; its lovely to hear (good) practising lawyers speak with their clients, like an equal and without any timidity.
If you're willing to work hard, then there are so many other professional avenues where you can make more money for the same amount of effort. For example, I have a colleague (I work in a PE fund) who studied in rural Rajastan in a Hindi medium school but he studied hard, was a CA ranker, and then went to one of the top IIMs. His English may not be polished but he is clearly a smart guy and will do well with time.
You have to play the cards you're dealt - not hope for another hand. Stop feeling like a victim and start doing what you can to reach you goal, whatever that may be. If you are an English speaking graduate then you are already luckier than 85% of Indians (at the very least). Be grateful for what you have and stop whining about what you don't.
Hi, I have been lurking at this particular thread since it was posted. The problem is that guys like OP dont have many options after law. No job for them. This is not the case about playing the cards you're dealt. This is the case with playing only Card - Just litigation.
Assuming that Op is first gen, he must be facing a tough time in terms of money and aging parents. Small School Law Grads dont get any job. Pet alone T-1 or T-3 .
OP mentioned that he is from MP/JH Or similar place, so moving to metro and working as intern / A0 is the only way left for them but that is really expensive and pure game of luck. He may make it or perish and crawl back to his burrow.
I am also assuming that OP enjoys litigation, apart from frustration of long trial. I guess, he is not attracted to work of a corporate lawyer. He is just looking for a way out to make more money and do good work.
@OP - I am impressed with how heartfelt your comments are. Word of advice if you can, join boutique in Mumbai. Again, that is uphill climb. Law is full of toxic & jealous people. Take care .
Sir/Ma'am, an MBA from a Top 10/20 is very expensive nowadays. It's above 30 lacs as full cost and if I add the interest given that the loan is paid in 7-8 years, it would be another 8-10 lacs. That's huge. Nowadays, the job market is not doing great. All those placement figures of top business schools are not true. Only the top 20-25% of the batches of the top 20 business schools get those 20/25 lpa CTC packages and the bottom 75-80% of people get below 20 lpa packages. Also, all these front office IB, VC, and Consulting like MBB, PE, etc recruit only from the Top 10 business schools which is very hard to get into as most IITians are bullish on them to get into. So a normal MBA grad from a below-top-20 business school would never earn well and at the same time have to pay that 30-40k per month education loan EMI.
Work hard and smart in litigation. If you can formulate a process and follow it with discipline, success will follow. Some suggestions:
1. Listen to lectures on YouTube by senior counsel and retired judges. You can learn so much. Download the judgments they cite and study them.
2. Attend HC hearings and make notes of what you learn in each court. You can learn corporate law, taxes, criminal law.. a really diverse set of laws by just observing different court rooms.
3. Attens trial court hearings and learn cross examination techniques.
4. Make time to exercise, play sports, pursue simple hobbies, socialize with friends and extend your friends circle.
5. Knowledge is power and there is no better advertisement than yourself. Improve intellectually and show yourself to be stable and well groomed outwardly.
6. Don't be afraid of failure. Discipline your inner voice to be self supportive.
People who downvote this think they deserve to succeed because they have a degree in law. A few years into your career, you will realize that your law school or your marks don't matter. Merit in the real world is hard work and dedication.
The person who wrote your law school doesn't matter is so oblivious. The only way to reach at the pinnacle is only through litigation for a person coming from that background. Law degree from a reputed university in India gives you privilege of not only to enter in the law firms but also in some big chambers. On the other side there is only litigation which is already full of nepos.
A2 here in a sense, I am working with my father in indirect taxation and I feel trapped. Most law firms/big 4 prefer CA LLBs in their practice whereas I have done only CS LLB. Even 6 years after GST the tribunal is yet to come. 2019 Amnesty meant CESTAT work has literally dried up. The less said about the sales tax tribunal the better, corruption and bribery is the order of the day. I never liked indirect taxes, joined only because I had no other choice. Now I wish I had stuck it out and never come here. A warning to whoever is choosing taxation, be absolutely sure you know what you are doing, lest you wanna get stuck.
I want to let readers of LI and extended legal fraternity know that our situation is very hopeless and helpless.
Most of us did not get to know about corporate law firms until it was very too late. Due to severe FOMO we start to litigate and dont get a decent shot at law firms. Many of my friends still dont know names of corporate law firms and different practise areas. Like they say, It takes a whole village to raise a child. In other words, a child is sum total of his circumstances and surrondings.
Unlike branded colleges and NLUs , our CVs dont look so shiny with internships and publications.
Most of us join litigation with hope of making it big one day, but you all know the success ratio and the pay in Seniors Chamber. Though we are from far flung areas but cost of living is not much lesser in our city as far as lower middle/middle class standard is considered. Just that some of us have decent home to call our own and we dont have to spend so much on Metro. That definitely gets saved.
Some students try their luck in Judicial services and ADPO/APP exams but again that is a game of chance (at least prelims).
I am writing this thread to get constructive opinion of Top Industry Professionals (Partners, HRs,MPs) to get their opinion on our class of people.
[1] Do we have hope ?
[2] Should we stick in law or change careers ?
I now find the hype around NLUs have made the freshers quite difficult to work with. Although some of them do come with the advantages of better education, their bad attitude is not worth it. I would much rather recruit from non-NLUs, local Unis because most of law can be taught to A0s. You just need diligence, and in the beginning, have to be willing to make it your entire life.
NLU or Non NLU, you will always get some chance, somewhere, and once you have a foot in the door, you will need to demonstrate your diligence. Rest of the doors will open automatically.
seriouspen@mail.com
I can become useful for a partner / firm. I will just take few minutes of your time every few weeks and do what you tell me to do.
A kind of mentorship - if you will. I am at the verge of giving up on law field. So, if you would like to connect, pls drop a throwaway email or anonymous telegram link and we can take it from there. Alternatively, you may ask for my link to connect.
Somewhere In Madhya Pradesh / Jharkhand belt.
Signing Off
=========================Thread Closed===================
Anyway, I firmly believe that Indian Youth is one of the hardest working professionals around the world. So, there's hardly any need to think twice. Just tell us the 'hustle road to heaven' - we are down ! :) We are aiming for Corporate Law Jobs.
I have recruited so many people from such backgrounds but they showed drive/persistence.
On another note, our case becomes the classic 'no internship-> no job' , 'no job->no internship/relevant work ex'. As far as drive is concerned , we can only show you drive once our internship is confirmed. Not before.
The original post did mention that our state does not have any law firm or independent practitioner (even the title highlights that). People like me have applied to many places but not getting any response.
Constructive comments help you are just repeating the same thing like everybody else.
1) There are only few of them and hence they run their own show. Needless to mention, the community is tight knight and due to which it becomes a challenge for jobseekers and those who are working with them. I am sure, the conscience of professionals in law firm feel suffocated a lot of times.
2) Even if candidates like me get a Masters from NLUs then also, firms will not allow us an entry. Law firms in India have highly restrictive policies. I am not sure why calibre of a person has to be judged from internships Solely.
At this point of time, law students in this country are absolutely gaga over internships. So much for internships that most of the students are hardly even picking up textbooks.
3) Restrictive policies of Firms immediately make such jobs SCARCE and ELITE . It becomes a job for which there is only one GOLDEN chance and GOLDEN GATE.
Compare this with open market and free policy of someone like a computer science graduate ? The job market is so free .
Don't let the kids on LI make it seem like its butterflies and rainbows or that they're dealing with the high and the mightly or that they are the movers and shakers of large transasactions. They are none of that. They're typing away a clause or formatting an agreement at 1am in their cubicle - something that no one else will ever read. Most kids with 2/3 years of work experience don't know their arse from their elbow.
You're right now blinded by what seems snazzy from the outside. "M ampersand A" sounds cool but it is drab work with uncertain hours and mind numbing due diligence. As a corporate law firm lawyer, you are always obsequious with your clients; its lovely to hear (good) practising lawyers speak with their clients, like an equal and without any timidity.
If you're willing to work hard, then there are so many other professional avenues where you can make more money for the same amount of effort. For example, I have a colleague (I work in a PE fund) who studied in rural Rajastan in a Hindi medium school but he studied hard, was a CA ranker, and then went to one of the top IIMs. His English may not be polished but he is clearly a smart guy and will do well with time.
You have to play the cards you're dealt - not hope for another hand. Stop feeling like a victim and start doing what you can to reach you goal, whatever that may be. If you are an English speaking graduate then you are already luckier than 85% of Indians (at the very least). Be grateful for what you have and stop whining about what you don't.
Hi, I have been lurking at this particular thread since it was posted. The problem is that guys like OP dont have many options after law. No job for them. This is not the case about playing the cards you're dealt. This is the case with playing only Card - Just litigation.
Assuming that Op is first gen, he must be facing a tough time in terms of money and aging parents. Small School Law Grads dont get any job. Pet alone T-1 or T-3 .
OP mentioned that he is from MP/JH Or similar place, so moving to metro and working as intern / A0 is the only way left for them but that is really expensive and pure game of luck. He may make it or perish and crawl back to his burrow.
I am also assuming that OP enjoys litigation, apart from frustration of long trial. I guess, he is not attracted to work of a corporate lawyer. He is just looking for a way out to make more money and do good work.
@OP - I am impressed with how heartfelt your comments are. Word of advice if you can, join boutique in Mumbai. Again, that is uphill climb. Law is full of toxic & jealous people. Take care .
1. Listen to lectures on YouTube by senior counsel and retired judges. You can learn so much. Download the judgments they cite and study them.
2. Attend HC hearings and make notes of what you learn in each court. You can learn corporate law, taxes, criminal law.. a really diverse set of laws by just observing different court rooms.
3. Attens trial court hearings and learn cross examination techniques.
4. Make time to exercise, play sports, pursue simple hobbies, socialize with friends and extend your friends circle.
5. Knowledge is power and there is no better advertisement than yourself. Improve intellectually and show yourself to be stable and well groomed outwardly.
6. Don't be afraid of failure. Discipline your inner voice to be self supportive.
I am someone who is aspiring to do CA . I would love to talk one on one with you. How should we get connected?