I'm not generalising anything and fully recognise the struggles girls go through their whole life, while walking down the street, travelling, using the lift, working amongst seniors and colleagues who make you uncomfortable, crazy interview questions etc., and as a male, I recognize my privilege.
However, I have to describe an incident. Not one, but a usual course of events.
I have been interning with a tier 1 firm, and everyone is very approachable, right to the top partner. However, I have noticed one thing, and it's kinda depressing. I have been asking the team for work since day 1 and get bleak responses. But 2 girls join the team and all of a sudden the senior male partner greets them, discusses work and asks the PA to allott some urgent work. All the seniors seem to suddenly have work for them. They aren't even people with connections, they are like batchmates, who got the internship the college way. But somehow they seem to have a pull in the team.
Ofcourse female associates are comfortable assigning them work and discussing things in person, however even male associates seem to suck up and blatantly flirt with them like its not fking creepy. The girls also don't seem to care and keep crossing the boundaries between a senior and junior, like it's no big deal. I understand I'm noone to police or advise on how to behave, and what kind of relationship a person has to have with whatever boundaries and with whom, and I may be an absolute scum of an intern in looks and work ethic, but how do you judge that on day 1, like you first allot work and then judge right, don't you?
Hi, genuine question- are you objectively very good looking? Or was it just plain confidence that you ‘thought’ you are good looking enough to get your way. Because the latter must be embarrassing a bit. Did you have to play a damsel in distress? Were you okay w getting known for being known for shady ways you know because people talk.
I an considered quite good-looking by conventional beauty standards.
At first, I observe people and pick who can be useful in the long run, preferably those who hold more power in the firm. Once my sights are set, I take most of my work from them and put in my level-best. That way, they have a positive impression of my intellectual acumen and trust me with more work.
Eventually, it leads to more and more small talks, wherein I try to push around and see how they respond. Understanding their body langauge also helps; there's some who would always maintain professional boundaries but not everyone has so stringent "ethical standards." Once these steps are successfully completed, I usually get what I want, ranging from: (i) recommendations to top-tier law firms (got PLENTY this way), (ii) positive feedback leading to callback (worked at a certain T1), (iii) gaining insider information of firms, (iv) other kind of help (A SA at a tier-one often helps me with college projects, since then I have been among the top scorers) and (v) lastly, but not the least, having them around as my "friends" which can mean plenty of things y'know :)
I wasn't like this before, but this is how law school and the super-competitive environment in a tier-one university forged me into, and I still try my best not to do anything outright unethical. Moreover, these strategies would never be successful unless you are actually good at your work. Thus, a combination of good looks, being great at work, and my "shady ways" helped me get quite ahead of others.
Thank you for reading this, have a nice day. Mwah <3
Well, there is a certain lawyer who sends a form for prospective interns to fill up. The form has a space for adding a photograph. Till date, only beautiful girls have been selected as interns by him.
I myself often wear low cut shirts on days of feedback or on end of the week, helps with my mentors always. Tier 1 associate are so deprived of quality feminine presence in life that plain talks can make them droll within hanky panky situation.
Abh mae A0 bangya now whosoever will resort such cheap thing to get good feedback I'll will get them lowest feedback of their life which would be well reasoned. One should believe in hardwork and sincerity
It's a harsh world out there. I have a lot of "girl friends" and they have conceded that they use their pretty privilege to get the job done. That includes flirting and more.
I hate to admit this but women at times do shady things to get the job done (my feminist self would have countered this vociferously a few years back but can do much now when it's so blatant and evident)
Now that I read this in the morning, I see that my rant here appears to be quite childish and kinda misogynistic. You may mark this trollish, or do whatever action it is you do, because I don't want to start some gender war here or discount the struggles girls go through. Maybe it's me :)
Sounds ridiculous. Seems you guys are working at really chappri places and are surrounded by literal idiots or are making dedicated attempts to sexualise work space. Been in a tier 1 for three years and not once has anyone overstepped their boundaries or tried to make a pass or done anything uncomfortable. Both men and women and intern or partners. Because no one has the fucking time, simple.
If interns think it’s some fifty shades of grey where they can pull off a job by being a bimbo and tight formals, stfu because it’s ridiculous! It’s much easier to just apply your damn brains. If partner or associates think they can get some from interns, ridiculous again! It’s much easier to just train.
I'm sorry but I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say, and rightly so because this was a midnight rant after not getting any work for 4 days straight in my internship at a "tier 1" (hope this clears the name of the firm)
I am not talking about sexual harassment and the likes, which also cannot be discounted because you or someone you know did not face it, I know several women in law firms who have suffered the same and have more than "uncomfortable" things. So I would firstly say, that even with "no fucking time", men do find the time to harass women and take advantage. Please read the numerous posts here as well. I am sorry but you seem like a female SA who likes to dismiss junior female's allegations because you are sucking up to the partner, or maybe you are an HR.
Coming to my post, I meant that even without necessarily sexual innuendoes, female interns seem to be delegated more work, or are greeted by seniors in the firm, maybe because they are usually better workers, better prepared on drafts and have actually struggled a lot to reach where they are, compared to the guys. Further they are usually the toppers of their class, so naturally giving them urgent work makes more sense. (I am in the top 10 but no topper)
Female here. Your observation may be right. I generally have seen how Partners and almost everyone are very comfortable initiating conversations with female interns. I have noticed how the intern's desk is otherwise very silent, people choose to just pass through and not talk otherwise with the male interns. But 1-2 days in the firm, I have noticed how everyone passing by notices female interns sitting (The number increased hence) and even smiles at us while passing by and eventually starts saying Hello, what are you all up to? etc and even gets extended to lunchroom conversations. All this is fine. I don't know if everything has a sexual intent or something because most of them have been very genuine and decent otherwise. (We can make out intentions, those who cant are stupid or pretend to be stupid). Now, how one takes it further is the question. Most of them are decent about it but I have also seen many take advantage of this (Talking extra sweet, acting innocent, laughing like auto-tune in a cringe voice etc). Women Seniors are comfortable talking with us, yes, but can also get personal at times (NOT ALWAYS because I have observed how women are the ones to be the biggest enemies of themselves). Also, Male Seniors avoid scolding female interns with the same intensity as what may usually be their relatively harsh style to male interns (Many are not comfortable). These ppl generally stop giving work to such female interns eventually, but won't reprimand them as rashly.
Now let us talk about the other side too. After court visits, I have seen the men stay together as a group and the women go back to the office. Men hang out and take multiple Chai-sutta breaks, we don't get called for them usually. They also go for Football practices, post-game hangout sessions, tourneys etc and we are not included. Some of the male partners are too strict and avoid talking to female interns (maybe being precautions) and are very chill with men. Have seen some sub-standard work being submitted by male interns and delegation of work to be done by them to us.
From my earlier internships, there was one instance when a male intern refused to type out stuff (translated doc to English) because he felt it was very clerical and he would NOT be wasting his time doing that. He had the liberty to refuse the work and IT WAS OKAY. I was already lined up with work and was asked to complete his HALF-DONE work. I usually don't complain about the work given as an intern, but I was outraged because it was half-done, messy and unfair. When I politely excused myself, the Associate was enraged and went on to insult me (the work was supposed to be done by him, he chose to give it late to interns and was facing the heat). I have seen very toxic behaviour from Men in the firm too, drafting for the male intern and dumb-ass formatting or printout work for us. So I think it's a mixed bag.
I am very sorry with what happened with you. But did you feel like you should have made your boundaries clear in the beginning. "I usually dont complain about the work given as an intern", because too often I see interns being given outrageous amounts of work when they are seen as a "pushover". Especially the A0s.
Also, now that I read my post again, I understand the fallacy. I apologise again.
hey i understand that you're frustrated, but this is NOT a privilege. This is older men in dominant positions abusing their power and being creepy. I'm sure you've seen other threads on LI about young women being sexually harassed. The so called 'privilege' you see comes with very real dangers. If an older man misbehaves, nobody is likely going to believe the young girl with no power/clout. They have the power to ruin people's careers, and all the college is going to do is brush it under the carpet to prevent the incident from ruining the college's chances of getting good internships. Remember that there will be two sides to this story.
Have been interning and have the last few days left, but have not gotten much work, just a few things. I'm really scared now. My mentor ghosts me but talks to all his female interns willingly even now. He also took them out somewhere.
Honestly, it sounds like your mentor is shitty. As a female intern from many years ago, I didn't really like being singled out for senior male attention - it felt (and was ) creepy.
If you want to be constructive, just watch and figure out what he needs. Anything he can use to talk more to women, he apparently uses like an incel but maybe there are tasks that he doesn't want to hand to them. That's you're in. Friendly helpful dude. Also make friends with the women. Be supportive and help them out. May be they will suggest including you. I used to do that for the guys who helped me or were my friends.
I'm not generalising anything and fully recognise the struggles girls go through their whole life, while walking down the street, travelling, using the lift, working amongst seniors and colleagues who make you uncomfortable, crazy interview questions etc., and as a male, I recognize my privilege.
However, I have to describe an incident. Not one, but a usual course of events.
I have been interning with a tier 1 firm, and everyone is very approachable, right to the top partner. However, I have noticed one thing, and it's kinda depressing. I have been asking the team for work since day 1 and get bleak responses. But 2 girls join the team and all of a sudden the senior male partner greets them, discusses work and asks the PA to allott some urgent work. All the seniors seem to suddenly have work for them. They aren't even people with connections, they are like batchmates, who got the internship the college way. But somehow they seem to have a pull in the team.
Ofcourse female associates are comfortable assigning them work and discussing things in person, however even male associates seem to suck up and blatantly flirt with them like its not fking creepy. The girls also don't seem to care and keep crossing the boundaries between a senior and junior, like it's no big deal. I understand I'm noone to police or advise on how to behave, and what kind of relationship a person has to have with whatever boundaries and with whom, and I may be an absolute scum of an intern in looks and work ethic, but how do you judge that on day 1, like you first allot work and then judge right, don't you?
At first, I observe people and pick who can be useful in the long run, preferably those who hold more power in the firm. Once my sights are set, I take most of my work from them and put in my level-best. That way, they have a positive impression of my intellectual acumen and trust me with more work.
Eventually, it leads to more and more small talks, wherein I try to push around and see how they respond. Understanding their body langauge also helps; there's some who would always maintain professional boundaries but not everyone has so stringent "ethical standards." Once these steps are successfully completed, I usually get what I want, ranging from: (i) recommendations to top-tier law firms (got PLENTY this way), (ii) positive feedback leading to callback (worked at a certain T1), (iii) gaining insider information of firms, (iv) other kind of help (A SA at a tier-one often helps me with college projects, since then I have been among the top scorers) and (v) lastly, but not the least, having them around as my "friends" which can mean plenty of things y'know :)
I wasn't like this before, but this is how law school and the super-competitive environment in a tier-one university forged me into, and I still try my best not to do anything outright unethical. Moreover, these strategies would never be successful unless you are actually good at your work. Thus, a combination of good looks, being great at work, and my "shady ways" helped me get quite ahead of others.
Thank you for reading this, have a nice day. Mwah <3
I hate to admit this but women at times do shady things to get the job done (my feminist self would have countered this vociferously a few years back but can do much now when it's so blatant and evident)
Now that I read this in the morning, I see that my rant here appears to be quite childish and kinda misogynistic. You may mark this trollish, or do whatever action it is you do, because I don't want to start some gender war here or discount the struggles girls go through. Maybe it's me :)
Done :)
If interns think it’s some fifty shades of grey where they can pull off a job by being a bimbo and tight formals, stfu because it’s ridiculous! It’s much easier to just apply your damn brains. If partner or associates think they can get some from interns, ridiculous again! It’s much easier to just train.
How juvenile is this bullshit??
I'm sorry but I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say, and rightly so because this was a midnight rant after not getting any work for 4 days straight in my internship at a "tier 1" (hope this clears the name of the firm)
I am not talking about sexual harassment and the likes, which also cannot be discounted because you or someone you know did not face it, I know several women in law firms who have suffered the same and have more than "uncomfortable" things. So I would firstly say, that even with "no fucking time", men do find the time to harass women and take advantage. Please read the numerous posts here as well. I am sorry but you seem like a female SA who likes to dismiss junior female's allegations because you are sucking up to the partner, or maybe you are an HR.
Coming to my post, I meant that even without necessarily sexual innuendoes, female interns seem to be delegated more work, or are greeted by seniors in the firm, maybe because they are usually better workers, better prepared on drafts and have actually struggled a lot to reach where they are, compared to the guys. Further they are usually the toppers of their class, so naturally giving them urgent work makes more sense. (I am in the top 10 but no topper)
Female here. Your observation may be right. I generally have seen how Partners and almost everyone are very comfortable initiating conversations with female interns. I have noticed how the intern's desk is otherwise very silent, people choose to just pass through and not talk otherwise with the male interns. But 1-2 days in the firm, I have noticed how everyone passing by notices female interns sitting (The number increased hence) and even smiles at us while passing by and eventually starts saying Hello, what are you all up to? etc and even gets extended to lunchroom conversations. All this is fine. I don't know if everything has a sexual intent or something because most of them have been very genuine and decent otherwise. (We can make out intentions, those who cant are stupid or pretend to be stupid). Now, how one takes it further is the question. Most of them are decent about it but I have also seen many take advantage of this (Talking extra sweet, acting innocent, laughing like auto-tune in a cringe voice etc). Women Seniors are comfortable talking with us, yes, but can also get personal at times (NOT ALWAYS because I have observed how women are the ones to be the biggest enemies of themselves). Also, Male Seniors avoid scolding female interns with the same intensity as what may usually be their relatively harsh style to male interns (Many are not comfortable). These ppl generally stop giving work to such female interns eventually, but won't reprimand them as rashly.
Now let us talk about the other side too. After court visits, I have seen the men stay together as a group and the women go back to the office. Men hang out and take multiple Chai-sutta breaks, we don't get called for them usually. They also go for Football practices, post-game hangout sessions, tourneys etc and we are not included. Some of the male partners are too strict and avoid talking to female interns (maybe being precautions) and are very chill with men. Have seen some sub-standard work being submitted by male interns and delegation of work to be done by them to us.
From my earlier internships, there was one instance when a male intern refused to type out stuff (translated doc to English) because he felt it was very clerical and he would NOT be wasting his time doing that. He had the liberty to refuse the work and IT WAS OKAY. I was already lined up with work and was asked to complete his HALF-DONE work. I usually don't complain about the work given as an intern, but I was outraged because it was half-done, messy and unfair. When I politely excused myself, the Associate was enraged and went on to insult me (the work was supposed to be done by him, he chose to give it late to interns and was facing the heat). I have seen very toxic behaviour from Men in the firm too, drafting for the male intern and dumb-ass formatting or printout work for us.
So I think it's a mixed bag.
Also, now that I read my post again, I understand the fallacy. I apologise again.
Updating on this.
Have been interning and have the last few days left, but have not gotten much work, just a few things. I'm really scared now. My mentor ghosts me but talks to all his female interns willingly even now. He also took them out somewhere.
What tf do I do. I have no hope now.
If you want to be constructive, just watch and figure out what he needs. Anything he can use to talk more to women, he apparently uses like an incel but maybe there are tasks that he doesn't want to hand to them. That's you're in. Friendly helpful dude. Also make friends with the women. Be supportive and help them out. May be they will suggest including you. I used to do that for the guys who helped me or were my friends.