The term mental harassment or mental cruelty was not invented by juniors in law firms. It's a well-accepted term used in several High Court and Supreme Court judgments. Infact Courts have dealt with this term in the context of harassment in workplace also. There's a 2013 AP High Court judgment dealing with this, maybe do some real work and look that up?
Are you sure you are as good a lawyer you claim to be? Because this is quite basic and even a law firm person knows this, and I understand that you believe law firm people are incompetent and under-performers.
You think maybe youngsters today demand more because they know their right and their worth so they won't go without a fight and maybe that makes oldies like you angry because you couldn't do the same? So instead of being happy for them, you just put them down because you are a sadist person?
And you think maybe you believe that just because you had a hard time (whatever is your definition of a hard time is) and you chose not to join a law firm (even though you could, and nobody would stop you) everyone should follow your footsteps and look upto you as some saviour of humanity even if you have no major contribution in their lives except for putting them down?
you havent even responded to my argument pathetic state of affair of such kind of senior who are in law firm even dont know how to argue. first answer why such toxic oldies /Partner hire their own know people. uncle judge syndrome?
Haha what a strange and childish argument it is to say that the law firm should either give you free money or admit it made a mistake hiring you. They don’t care that much either way. They’ll pay you till you bring in money- when you stop making them money they will let you go. They’re not your parents. They don’t owe you anything.
Don’t you feel awful admitting you’re such a bad hire that they made a mistake taking you?
What’s wrong in glorifying resignation & falsely portraying to be victim, when you have an offer from another T1 law firm (read SAM) to move along with one partner who recently got fired from a T1 firm (read AZB)?
What’s wrong in using all illicit tactics to get rid of your notice period by start abusing your seniors in said glorified resignation?
What’s wrong in becoming stooge of said partner and leaking only selected communication (read glorified resignation) and concealing all subsequent apologies by the younger generation A0?
What’s wrong in demeaning the profession and a very respected work place only for your personal short term gains?
What’s wrong in sensationalism and wasting time of several other youngsters and stooping this low?
Where will this lead our youngsters to ? Even I am one and have this question ?
Again with your stupid assumptions. I read all of those and still believe that equating that article with the empirical research and to reach the conclusion that you have reached is the hallmark of stupidity that you continue displaying. By the way, I do have a degree in economics, so certainly better educated than you to understand and accept/reject related arguments.
They will have to fire some of us? When has that happened exactly? Economically not to waste time? If recruiting through internships is a waste of time, then why have internships at all? Aren't they wasting more time and money paying lakhs to those associates who according to you aren't adding any value to the firm? This is definitely about the incompetence, apathy, inefficiency and basically bad practices of the decision-makers in law firms. You are the one who is trying to make it about others. You are representing the firms and defending them, so of course you will be equated with them. Just like you are equating me with the freshers/students asking for basic rights and professional behaviour, since I am speaking for them.
yoo bro look at the long term, increment in IB is less. The highest post is managing director in IB which makes around 1-2 CR after 15-20 PQE but in law firms if you work your ass off 15-20 PQE you have the chance to become an equity partner.
My life is fine. I’ll go away from this conversation extremely confident in what I bring to value in any workplace situation- you’re the one having a breakdown. Y’all aren’t actually complaining about any specific behaviour or policy. You’re complaining about having to work. Period. That’s why you will always lose the argument.
You keep saying “you” as if I’m in a hiring team for a corp firm. Which sounds like a nightmare job to me. And the crux of your argument seems to be “ well you hired me so don’t expect me to do work- you should’ve known I’m a bad hire”.
Like I said corp firms hire the way they do because it works out for them economically to not waste time or money on a long process for every new hire. They know many of you will not perform and never rise above being an associate. They also know they will have to fire some of you. They’re making a bet. They need hundreds of people a year and they’re optimising their process.
This isn’t about them. This is about you. You need to take control and responsibility for your choices and your life. Be an adult.
Did you read the empirical research the Forbes article cites ? The book ? Did you read the charts and figures cited by the economists ? No ? Phir se law school ke tevar- reading nahi kiya opinion toh hain.
When you have no argument one resorts to ad homonym . I’m far better educated than you are cause I don’t ask for evidence and then just dismiss it. You’re embarrassing yourself.
Who gave this quite Aristotle or Socrates? Ohh, its toxic version of Socrates. Maybe the the chacha tau of plato... who favour their own people without seeing merit
So go beyond those. Who is stopping you exactly? Do something to make your own lives better, instead of hoping that students/fresh grads would do your job for you. If exploiting others who have got no choice other than to take it is what makes you happy, then why don't you do that instead of whining about other people complaining about your policies and behaviour?
The fact that you keep making faulty assumptions about people and refer to Forbes articles when asked about empirical research go to show that you are neither educated and not even particularly bright. Which makes you the perfect fit for these law firms.
You can't recognise the people who should work for you and that's a fault of our class privilege? Much wow! Train your recruiting teams to do better. Change your hiring policies to recruit only through internship. Once again, if you are hiring the wrong set of people for you, then that's your fault! It's not as if people are clearing a government exam and are being assigned to you. Maybe instead of lecturing others about working harder, you are the one who should work harder and do better at your job.
Hiring you folks? Yeah the hiring teams of corp firms are messing up. They should go beyond nlu/jgls kids and hire people who are hungry. It is your fault for not making the most of the opportunities you've been given in life. And it is your fault for not recognizing your class privilege.
Having conviction in your polarised opinions dont make them true. Capitalism has undoubtedly pulled millions out of poverty. Does that mean we dont need labour regulation or taxation ? of course not. But youre not about labour regulation or taxation- youre about ending work so you can lounge around and have other people pay the bill. Its a silly point of view if you think about it for more than one second.
Totally agree. Law firm structures are totally apathetic to human needs. While the firms have total control over what the retainer resources do they don't even have the decency to provide basic necessities, such as afternoon meals. If you can't give it on your own money then at least make some efforts to have a facility where associates can buy decent food that is affordable.
People working in law firms have to work pretty hard and it should be the least expected thing to have substantial savings for that amount of hard work. But the situation is becoming worse and and worse. Rents and inflation are skyrocketing but still retainer amounts are a decade old because nobody wants to loosen their purse strings even a tiny bit.
Yeah. What labour what skill ? You think the rest of us are fools? 10-15 lap is not fair remuneration for the work? Nonsense. Y’all pretend like you’re undergoing some great injustice when you’re doing 4 times better than the median income at the very least.
That’s exactly the freaking point. It’s not charity. They’re in it to make money and work for their clients. If you’re not in it for that- you want them to pay you when you don’t do the work- why exactly are you the moral person in that scenario.
If you don’t want the firm taking a cut - you could go start your own practice. But you’d have trouble landing clients like they do - that takes work too. That’s how any law firm works. Has no one thought about this stuff more than one second?
Except there’s a world of difference between bullying and abuse and perfectly reasonable workplace expectations. Do y’all really not see it ? You label everything toxic - you’re the bullies.
Capitalism lifts hundreds of thousands of people out of poverty. Tell me when you have a better alternative. It’s not exploitative for people to ask what you’re doing with the time you’re billing them for. It’s like the bare freaking minimum- you want folks to pay you for doing nothing- that’s injustice. Who cares what’s cool ? I care what’s right.
You’re spending just as much time on here. Get over yourself. This is what y’all do- when someone makes an actual argument about what the way to lead a good life would be or what expectations should be from work- y’all get personal and call the opposing side old. As if you’ll never be old. Idiotic.
Honestly if you think someone is not delivering according to the salary, then fire them. It is clear that your recruitment policy and procedure are flawed and your recruiting partners know jack s**t.
This is so pathetic. You know the this thinking is essentially what propagates ragging in colleges- "you have no idea what we went through" or "you are getting it easy, we had it worse". Just because you went through unfortunate incidents in life, does not mean everyone has to. Break the cycle instead of trying to change the narrative.
Bhai, it's 2023, no longer cool to sit around defending capitalist exploitation. Might be the first keyboard warrior on LI to actually unironically defend billable hours as if it's not the most inefficient, dishonest way to account for time. Contrary to what people of your age bracket think (I can tell you're a bitter early millennial), the younger lot wants not to sleep at home, but to have their labour and skill respected and remunerated fairly.
If you spent less time pontificating to children on the internet and touched a little more grass or actually went out at 5 to see the sunset with your girlfriend, you'd be leading a better life but here you are, squawking yourself hoarse and becoming a meme of a man.
Even a fresher Associate who makes 1.2 L a month will be making roughly 2.5-3L a month in revenue for the firm. Firms "recoup" their investment from day one, so don't pretend it's a charitable drive for kids.
They are telling you what expectations are now- theyre telling you to work harder and better and longer- thats the feedback. Honestly if you dont want the job leave. Hundreds would fill your space in an hour. You act like someone scammed you when its actually the other way around.
Sorry what? you think people out of IITs are holding down multiple jobs? Youre nuts buddy. The median pay for an IIT graduate is about 15 LPA, thats about the same as it is for NLU kids. No great injustice there. If yall want comparable pay to someone in faang- you shouldve performed better in law school and done the magic circle thing.
are cab drivers beneath you? you scammed your way through a degree course- that does not entitle you to a life of luxury. Nothing entitles anyone to that. The reason why law firms hire the way they hire is because theyre big big companies with many new hires every year. They cannot invest more time vetting each candidate. A smaller firm will have longer process. Theyre optimising how much time and money theyre spending. They are doing a good job from their perspective cause guess what? Yall will never actually leave. No one does. You like the money too much.
What is abuse? Telling someone their work is no good cannot be abuse. That is where we are at. Don't keep moving goalposts ya. First it was " I cant go home early enough to do things I want" now its abuse and bad behavior. No one thinks that actual abuse is okay. But honestly yall whinge on here so much about not living like instagram influences that its crazy. Its enough to give everyone in the profession pause about working with any of the new people.
You are whining here, though. Why not go away and work hard at making others money and be satisfied with the crumbs that they throw to you? Since that passes off for work ethic for you.
We all should be modest and remember the famous quote:
“Arrogant people are non-learners. They invest their energies in maintaining a cozy feeling of complacency, and complacency is the biggest single enemy to the process of continuously learning from experience. Arrogant people are exactly the sort of people who are destined to have one year's experience 20 times rather than 20 years' worth of experience.“
The arrogance in your response just shows what kind of shitty senior you are / will be. More than the long work hours or a lack of work life balance, its people like you who make this industry hell.
Haha the guy who invents AI that automated your work will lead a life of exceeding luxury. You won’t cause you didn’t contribute to that. You either build other skills to stay employable or your remain unemployed. Happened to coal miners and telephone operators and typists. Go read some history. Society is under no obligation to give a life of luxury to those who don’t contribute to its evolution.
I did sign up for a 15 k salary. I lived in a Pg and ate one meal a day. I thought it was worth it because I was helping people and learning.I’m not whining - you guys are.who told you the expectation is to be able to own or rent your own flat in your twenties ? How spoiled are you? Having flatmates is quite normal and not an invasion of privacy. That is when you live in a chawl with your entire family. Those two are not the same thing. Inflation is not that bad from ten years ago that 15 k back them would give you purchasing power parity as 45 k now. Any reasonable person should be able to live a decent middle class life on 45 k. If you want more - you want luxury. Nothing wrong with wanting more for oneself - but you’ll have to work for it. Thems the rules. I’m not a boomer - y’all use that as an insult on anyone who is a minute older than you as if your youth makes you morally virtuous. Get over yourself.
How old do you think someone who started work ten years ago is ? I’m
In my thirties. I have plenty of time left I can spare a minute or two to call you out on the bullshit. If you led a better examined life you wouldn’t have to cling to your youth as if it were a virtue.
You can have personal flaws and own them and work on them. Most of us have been lazy as students, but we’ve come away from that - recognised that as a flaw and worked on it. It’s called growing up. When someone asks you to do that - they’re telling you that because they’ve been through it - not because they’re perfect.
Not everyone wants to do well. The scam/ hustle culture is quite big among young people. They do think all they need to do is to be able to talk themselves out of doing hard work. Not every problem you have starts with someone else being in sufficiently motivational or mentoring or whatever. Sometimes it’s just about you expecting these things on a platter. You need to work on your own motivation. And if you demonstrate drive and commitment sooner or later someone will mentor you- the profession exists because of that. But you can’t make your self improvement or lack of it someone else’s fault. That’s not how adult life works.
This is how law school kids complain “ oh I don’t study cause the prof doesn’t seem fun “ - it’s not his job to be. Not everything in life is about fun- his job is to teach the material- that maybe be boring material but it’s his job to teach it. And your job is to learn it even if it doesn’t give you seratonin. Cause not everything in life does.
Nobody is responsible for your motivation. It is nobody’s job to make you fall in love with your chosen profession. You made your choices- you best know why.
Oh my god! Please go look at the median income figures for this country before revealing yourself to be such a fool. It is not questionable that the median income of this country’s today is 25000 something.
If you think that having to share your flat with a roommate means you’re not living on luxury- I don’t know anyone who is that blind. The average law student is not supposed to be able to own or rent the year they start! If you’re spending 80 k on your rent because you’re too posh to share your flat - that just shows how spoilt and out of touch you are.
I am envious of you lot. You’ve had every opportunity and you’ve ruined them. I do hate it when corp lawyers whinge because they have absolutely no idea what anyone else in the country lives like. What is the problem with that ? Where is it written that you can only be judged by people exactly like you? You’re in a bubble. It’s not an acceptable state of affairs for everyone else to let you guys think you’re under going literal slavery when there are children in beedi and cigarette factories who go blind from working there in this country.
I do not have a problem with your average law college grad who goes into litigation or a small chamber , makes a modest amount of money or sometimes even gets paid very poorly.
People who get paid very poorly should whinge, and scream and fight and unionise until they get a living wage.
That is just not you. 15 k ten years ago was not 45 k. Please go check inflation indices instead of making shit up. You’re not in law school anymore.
They will try and make you work hard to recoup their investment. When you don’t - you won’t advance. I’ve seen it happen to my college mates - never made SA, eventually left ashamed.
When you’re interning - you look around at what the associates are doing with your eyes. That’s part of what you’re there for. This isn’t hard. Just because someone offered you a job - doesn’t mean they’re in love with you.
1. If the breaks are affecting work and world quality- yes by all means, you are right and I don't think anybody on this chain from the genz side is defending such behaviour.
2. If not, please stop micro managing what people do.
Safe to say,nobody is arguing in favour of entitled kids coming in through a cha-cha or mama. At some level, seniors have a responsibility to make the juniors fall in love with the job. You have to make it interesting and attractive enough.
In my not-so-humble opinion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the bright-eyed newbies of the legal world. On the flip side, it's the creaky old-timers, who seem to think that a good old battering from their seniors was the golden ticket to legal brilliance. How cute!
Their go-to metaphor? "You need the blazing heat of a furnace to purify gold" or perhaps a "stretch to judge how flexible the rubberband is" I'd say it's more of a half-baked excuse than a nugget of wisdom, an attempt to paint their old-school hazing as a badge of honour. I bet the fresh lot can value genuine mentorship and a dash of tough love. However, there’s a difference between that and a senior mistaking their gray hair for a license to play the nightmare-inducing boogeyman.
Cutting to the chase: every profession has its pompous balloons waiting to be popped. I've had the, let's say, "pleasure" of dealing with these so-called legal titans—the ones paraded as the cream of the crop. And boy, have I been left scratching my head! Not to toot my own horn, but we're talking basics here, folks. So, whenever someone starts waxing poetic about the 'golden days of lawyering,' I can't help but visualize a steaming, freshly served plate of... let's just say, a cow's generous donation to our environment.
Lastly, and just for the record, there's not even a shred of empirical evidence that supports the notion that a tormented soul drafts better documents or magically enhances one’s ability to dot the i's and cross the t's.
Not 80s and 90s. These are the guys who made partners/PA post 2010. That is a guarantee. The 80s and 90s partners are way too senior to even come down and talk to you- think LV, RM, RBJ, JA, Gunj, YA, PG. And least of all come on to these forums and Comment.
Pay well? lol. Assuming national law schools = IITs/IIMs. On graduation, these people make the same amount of money or a little more. But they do one job. 10-7 in most cases except pf course if you are working for an investment bank, in which case, you get paid a whole lot more. On thre other hand, effectively most associates work 14 hour days. So who says this is handsome pay? Cut the crap.
What a truckload of non-sense. For starters, self admittedly this is a comment from a lit practising person. You sign up for a 15K salary, if you take lit. 15K from 10 years ago is like 45K today. 45K I still not thr norm for most people when they start out in the litigation world. That such a person would comment on law firm lawyers (who actively reject having to subject themselves to a life of penury for 7-8 years in the litigation world) smacks of nothing less than jealousy and hatred for the other folks that are having it slightly better.
Alas for posh apartments, in the city. The rent is ideally 80K above. No associate (given most of them make betweel 1L-1.5L during the course of their 3-4 ywar associate ship) rents out such places if they want to have anything resembling privacy. Fancy apartments only if you room/flat share with 3 or 4 other people. That's not a house or a home. That's a stop gap arrangement till you make some money when you can afford a house closer to the city, with your spouses salary combined. So boomer aunty/uncle, please stop assuming we all have it too easy.
Hope this person listens to each piece of advise that their parents ever gave. Didn't do one wrong thing in life. Was so perfect that he could churn out SPAs in his second year. Do InvIts in his third. Wrote memos on billion dollar issues which wouldn't need to be reviewed by anybody else in his 4th. If in lit- was the one guy Harish salve looked upto for having as his briefing counsel in his 5th. Will to perform it seems- my foot. Everybody wants to perform- those who fall short of it don't fall short of it because of the lack of will- but due to the lack of proper training, mentorship and motivation. Of course the odd individual who' doesn't have the will do so will always be there-1) such people exist in every generation; and 2) no point categorizing an entire generation as being bad due to one or two bad apples. I sincerely do think that most of these comments are from some petty minded SAs ans PAs. Refuse to believe that anybody who's good enough to be a partner would have such mental retardedness and lack maturity in their comments.
Sir, if we junior or next gen lawyer will get seniors/ mentor/ lawyer like you we will be happily working for this sort of environment. Everyone know legal industry is demanding. But confusing demanding nature with toxicity and heavy exploitation in regard of mental then these thing tend to get worse with time and get imbibed with person sub conscious mind. Thats we new gen lawyer or law Student demand non toxic boses because we dont want to become that pathetic person that oldies partner are, who are in a way toxic due to the treatment oldies/ partner got from their senior when they were senior.
Long hours, yes. The abuse and bad behaviour, no. Foreign firms also have long hours and one may argue better or least comparable pay. Have you seen their associates come up with such horror stories? Why is it that I have to compare myself with the cab drivers and delivery people? Are they spending as much on their education and qualification? You completely avoided the aspect of why law firm recruiting partners do such a completely bogus job of hiring these people whose ability to work hard they are not sure about. You do your job well and then ask others to do theirs.
You keep saying that the firms tell us what to expect. When does that happen exactly? Ideally that should happen during the internship phase, but doesn't. There are plenty of interns who slack off and still manage to land a job even if not a PPO. Moreover, you avoided answering the main question. If law firms believe that most of the associates or even a sizable number aren't working hard enough for their liking, then why don't they simply fire those people instead of abusing and harassing them and force them to quit?
Hard work is not 2 hours of smoke break in the scorching heat and humidity, 1 hour of tea coffee gossip break. Harassment is not requesting to deliver work in time or following clients requirements.
And do not want to change or quit. When asked to do better, start criticising the world. Where is the self respect in that?
Sure, demand for all what you want. Work hard for it. Do not have your uncles and aunts and family calling to get you placements if you are not cut out for hard work and intelligence. If you lack these, might as well be in a cosy job which will fill your demands and will not demand anything in return.
Law profession is demanding, law firms are more, lawyers are known for perfections in their work. All those who have it and are willing to give their best, will veritably succeed and will get all their demands fulfilled.
And others will keep whining and complaining and keep demanding, changing jobs, complaining every boss, criticising system. And once you are lawyer, you are not a kid anymore.
Arre uncle why are you spending so much time on random internet message boards to impose your opinion on others? People's perspectives won't change because you have believed in some narrative, and the old ways are bound to change with time. That's evolution. As for you, spend time with family, do something meaningful. Time isn't your best friend
I can be offended at both. The extremely wealthy and their extremely spoilt children. To be a top 10% earner in India you need to earn more than 25 k a month. go reflect on your privilege.
Holy assumptions batman. I literally worked with rape victims for years after law school and you want to mock that? - it was that famous ngo in bombay if you really care. But I'm not gonna doxx myself more to children on the internet. You sure youre better than me? That seems moral to you?
I'm absolutely none of those things you think about me. And your assumptions say more about your victim mentality and "if anyone disagrees with me they must be evil" thinking than they do about me.
I pay my juniors and interns exceedingly well- but if they dont perform they know they will have to go elsewhere soon. I wont carry people who will waste my time or put my clients in harms way. Not for a day longer than necessary. And I dont hire just anyone. I had zero connections in law. Literally first generation college student. I dont yell at people. I got yelled at a lot and I myself get quite anxious around people who yell. I pay freaking traffic fines. No corruption. Turns out you can make an honest living when you work hard and are good at your job. Shock! Horror!
And I didnt block FDI- but please do not assume any foreign law firm would hire slackers who cant put in billable hours. It is literally a pop culture trope about how american lawyers in big law are cutthroat and how difficult it is to stay on at a firm or advance in your career without putting in crazy hours. I know quite a few colleagues from law school who took the magic circle route- they may have a yearly vacation now and then- but they work crazy hours the rest of the time. No one gets home at 5 pm to ride off to the beach to watch the sunset with their model girlfriend. And those places will expect quality analytical and detail oriented folks to do the work. Like 10% of firm lawyers in india would even be considered. Why do you think consultancies that can hire in india dont hire from most indian law schools- even nls they only take a couple every few years. They are chock full of engineers though because those guys work hard.
I dont have children- but if I did I would dissuade them from going into big law with these grand expectations of utopia. And I would teach them the social, economic, and spiritual value of hard work. Leave your campsite better than you find it dude. If you can only think about how your life is not perfect- you get myopic and dont realise the house nextdoor is burning.
Who exactly is planning to change the world at your cam Sam azab show ? Literally no one. They tell you exactly what to expect. But they don’t even need to - there’s enough people who have gone into this industry since industrialisation to tell you that the work hours are not leisurely. If you want an easier job you’ll get lesser pay.
Dude doctors and engineers spend just as much. Doctors don’t make any real money until years after their super specialisation and establishing their own practice. Most engineers who get hired by Wipro/ Infosys are struggling to make ends meet at 25-30 k per month.
If you’re the sort of person who took a firm seriously when (if) they told you you’d have the free time of a Kim kardashian - I mean theres no warning you at that point. Do you want to buy a talking dog ? I’m a Nigerian Prince send me your account details.
These places make you work long hours - that had been true for freaking years. Ask anyone. On the flip side they actually pay you well for your time unlike cab drivers and delivery boys who work the same hours , do harder manual labour, and then get a pittance for their trouble.
Dear uncle, have you asked a similar question to the masters that you work for? For instance- these might be pertinent questions to ask:
1. Why have offices in Nariman point/lower Parel where one can't afford a house (and if they don't it's usually a dinghy dark place without Any balconies) and spends hours on the road a day getting to these places and going back home. And please don't give me the crap.about client needs- in thia day amd age where VCs are the norm. Sure, go ajead and even have a fancy sea facing office for meetings- working offices can be at places where humans can live in a place called home (and it's not that, if there's no balcony) and not in boxes. This location thing, is just to serve the interests of those senior partners who have fancy bungalows in hanging gardens and whatnot. That for every senior partner, atleast, 50 people travel distances exceeding 45 minutes a day- is just sheer stupidity.
2. Ensuring bonuses are paid on time and firms don't use bonus as a retention tool such that anytime you leave, you leave money on the table.
3. Not even offering a lunch- most other corporate organisations atleast offer lunch. A single migrant kid having to figure out his bread on a daily basis- is not easy.
Most of you realise that these are the oldish SAs, the PAs and some RP/SP level guys who are being boomer on this thread? Equity and senior partners don't have fhe time or the inclination for such posts/threads. Don't take these folks seriously- they don't represent the leadership philosophies of most partners. Any guy who says, you must struggle and subject yourself to harassment, just because he too did, is no better than a cult priest and a whiner who wants to be able to piggy back on your hard work. Alas, the crux of the complaint therefore is- you need to work.hard, so that I can relax (which you by the way shouldn't do) and claim all/most of the credit and make my way in life and walk my dogs and/or go do whatever pretentious hobbies I've picked up in life.
1. expecting better systems/devices? A one time investment of 50-75K extra is a big ask in a sector which sees 80-90% yearly ROI?
2. Doing two jobs (given that most people well work beyond the 8 hours) and getting paid for it, handsomely? You don't even offer any retirals (PF, gratuity etc). Now take the case of IIT-IIM grads and I take them cos our nat law/tier 1 schools who make the majority of law firm resources, make the same or in some cases more money on graduation. They do one job (most of them have 10-6/7 job, unless they with one of the investment banks or EYs/PWCs).
3. Asking for the best deals and best work? Surely, nobody is interested in doing some meaningless work. Hell, the more complex and Sevier the transaction- the more you learn. Sure, you need to have the skills to be able to deliver- but as long as that's there, why shouldn't kids be demanding for this?
The shroffs and zia, say Hi, for having started this all in the early 90s. That foreign firms have largely made it easier for their lawyers to have a better life, is lost on these boomers. Like a broken record, they will do nothing except talking about how difficult they had it. Attribute everything to client expectations. What stops them all from coming together and saying we will all agree to a common work code- how much will we push lawyers and clients. You agree to that- you can solve a lot of problems. Not suggesting France type no emails after 5PM. Something as simple as just auto locking laptops for 6-8 hours in the late nights. No firm in India will respond during those hours. No 24 hour meetings- every meeting should break for the day post the 16 hour mark. Partners/PAs being told that they shouldnt expect (and in fact, send the message) their associates to stay at work/office, just because they are around. Flexibility to work from home as long as work is not impacted. such simple things to implement. Nobody wants to talk about it. Someday, some kid who's been haraassed by the boomer generation really gets to a place in the government, where he starts applying the labour codes to these law firms or creates one for lawyers, investment bankers and audit/financial/transactional advisory firms such EY-PWC-KPMG etc.
I am an old school pre-smart phone Era lawyer. Things that old school has to realise:
1. Life is all about evolution. Do you guys follow what your parents tell you? For all the PAs and partners in their 30s-40s, chances are you were quite the rebel in your younger days and continue to be so, wrt your parents and their advise. So please don't do this- "oh we had it so difficult, this how we grew, this how you must also grow" shit. Life and work is ever evolving and we must always adapt. Not be boomer-dinos.
2. Granted that useful skills such as proper proofing, research, formatting, etc is important. But guys come on, living in the times that we are in, all of this can be outsourced and to a large extent is now being done by the computers and AI. Given that most associates atleast in their first two years only do this, no point harassing them about this beyond a certain point.
3. When we started working, there was no concept of work life balance. Working from home. Not Even bloody HSE (health safety environment) clauses in contracts. These days firms send weekly updates on these topics. Who's to blame? The very fact that firms are writing this is because of the lessons learnt from.the horror stories that our generation went through. To then say that oh you must also go through this cos we went through this is pure crap. It must be quite the contrary- because I went through this and it affected me, I won't let you go through this- should be the Mantra that all PAs and partners adopt.
4. The very topic assumes that we as old school lawyers had to go through shit and the genz doesn't and that is somehow wrong. Perhaps a little self reflection on why you went through shit is necessary. Cos if you were super good, you wouldn't have gone through shit in the first place. You weren't good either in your younger years- so accept that lawyers will evolve with age and can't expect them to be superstars right out of college.
5. An average law school kid probably spent 10-12 hours a day sleeping. To then shock his body suddenly with a 4-6 hour sleep schedule (and in some cases, worse than that) is Gunatanamo bay level torture. This needs to be worked up gradually. This is also a factor of an associate being involved in his job and liking it- things which are very difficult in the abstract without context and not having any foresight of why they are doing what they are doing. How many of you boomers take a first year associate to a negotiation? Hence,please understand that it is not fair to expect 23 year old kids to fall in love with their jobs and blindly do everything without question.
6. Drafting is a skill that evolves with age and life experiences. Hell,even commitment to a job is directly proportional to the personal commitments that you have. How can you expect a 23-25 ywar old without any familiar commitments to have a high sense of responsibility and commitment to the job?
To all the genz lawyers- hang in there, these horrible bosses and boomers notwithstanding. Lawyers evolve with age. You'll only be good at what you do if you like doing it. That usually comes with more responsibility and visibility on the impact that your work has. And also being given importance. All of this will come. You need to ask as many questions as you can- be as involved as you can, so that you get to the place where you start liking the Job. In fact in my view, the sole purpose of getting to an SA must be to get to a place where you have little more responsibility and ability to fall in love with the job. All the very best- 2012 lawyer. Have been both in house and in a law firm (currently in a law firm- before the boomer defending folks start jumping at the in house reference).
If it is really the poverty in this country that offends you, then you should be more offended by the managing partners and senior advocates who make in the range of double/triple-digit crores and pay peanuts to those who work for them.
It is not the aspirational middle class who must feel guilty for the inequality in this country.
These baby boomers/ partners/ are frustrated af now they realise that now new gen isn't fearful of calling them out for their exploitation and toxicity. They expect same as when they were treated with same toxicity by their own seniors in 1970s..1980s.. but these oldies dont realise world has changed and they also have to.
The average Indian doesn't have to spend 15-20 lakhs on education either to get a 27000 job. It's not about what law school says, but what the firms say before and during recruitment. Hire only on the basis of internships, who is stopping you?
Well, one will leave as most people do. However, whenever they get vocal about the reason why they have left, people like you try to ambush them making it seem like their fault. Moreover, don't you promise to change the world during those pre-placement talks, where you make it sound like your firm is the next best thing to Christ's Second Coming? Why not start telling the students honestly about what will be required of them, if you are acting in good faith all along?
Where is the will to get harassed, abused and treated as a doormat you mean? Because if performance is the only issue, then you can just fire a non-performer from the firm? Why don't we get to see many of those in the T1 firms? Instead the firms would rather keep harassing the concerned individual till they would quit on their own, apparently that doesn't paint the firm in a bad light.
First questions first, how much do you pay your juniors? Your office staff ? Since you love to contribute to society and are able to charge whatever price you quote from your clients - that’s a material question.
Your generation was apparently doing ‘rape’ cases and now are successful enough to name your price for clients? Please enlighten us how you are contributing to society by handling presumably criminal matters at a crazy fee. These fees don’t reflect salaries of even the most successful corporate lawyers, forget litigation.
This is what your generation has done, let me give some examples:
1) many of you are in positions today thanks to your mom and dad’s connections, if you didn’t have that access - then were lucky to work hard at a time when there was hardly any competition, just take a good luck at older and younger lawyers today and you’ll get a good sense of average intelligence in each category to see where there’s more competition (many senior lawyers who charge a price they want to in my experience eat samosas and gossip all day, are insanely rude and entitled, are fixers or know the judge, no special ability is needed for these multiple talents, I’ve lost count of the No of meetings I’ve been in where this what a successful lawyer brings to the table),
2) you don’t pay your juniors because you are still stuck in your mentality of earning 15k ‘in your time’, but find is alright to charge fees that make no sense either in terms of the legal market or what other lawyers earn.
3) You love to talk about hard work but yell at people who give you coffee and cost cut for staff around you who are obv working way harder than you in pathetic conditions
4) not to mention how many of you make your money the corruption and fixing is so disgusting. Each generation of lawyers is not comfortable with this crap because we don’t want to ‘contribute’ to a shitty India. I used to live in a colony where houses worth 30 crores were owned by ‘lawyers’ I’d never heard of, and I’ve been a lawyer in delhi all my life. It’s anyone’s guess whose money they are managing. These lawyers who you are pushing to work hard can bleed themselves dry but won’t make 1/3 of that in their lifetime, even if they do, inflation will kill them. I guess dining judges, bureaucrats, and Police and helping builders is lots of hard work.
5) You’ve blocked FDI in law because it doesn’t benefit you, and you will be forced to compete with global talent; you also know your fixing and toxic slave owner mentality is hard to explain to foreign firms and lawyers. They also run lawyers to the ground, but the market has a lot more options for people who don’t want to do that kind of work, they at least have some policies that can have some effect, at least they aren’t lala firms.
I can go on .. The legal market in India is a goddamn joke.
So please, spare this crap of working hard and contributing to society - All you’ve done is line your pockets. And expect others to be subservient around you, it’s just a power move and nothing else.
The best proof of your narcissism is when your kids become lawyers and then suddenly you all are huge believers in work life balance because your daughter / son who works for 2-3 years before marriage and decides to take it easy after need to show up on time for family dinners / vacations and find working in law sooo stressful.
If you think you had a hard life, and don’t think it makes sense for the current generation to be treated with respect, then unfortunately all you learnt from your struggle is how to hustle, you need to deliberate if making things better for others is what real growth is, it’s a complete failure if each subsequent generation just wants to repeat the same thing and expect the same results. If you think everything should be the same, then by all means expect your kids to do the same without connections / breaks the way you expect from other lawyers, and see how you feel.
After reading the posts here, it is clear that youngsters and specially incompetent, under-performers and back door entrants are inventors of new age terminology. Toxic, mental harassment and what not, seriously ? Where is the will to perform ?
So you arent contributing to that evolution? You just want to sit around and wait for someone else to solve your problems and make your life comfy? Youre not a part of the solution then? only a part of the problem? I'm no ones slave. Im a free citizen of a free country. I actually had the guts to leave law firm life and do something worthwhile unlike cowards who will sell their souls for money and then sit around playing victim.
Dont work then if its so hard to provide an account of freaking billable hours. If you cant respect your clients time and money what makes you think anyone would want to work to provide you with leisure class life? Leave your job and go become a landlord somewhere. sit on your behind and eat rent money the rest of your life.
Whoever told you youre the proletariat lied- Its clear by this marie antoinette let them eat cake behaviour yall engage on here that youre the bourgeoise who enjoy privilege in this country.
They want highest ever compensation, window seats-sea facing to sit in office, advance tech systems to work on with their mobiles, best quality work and big deals of their asking. All this with Starbucks coffee, Chaayos tea, Chinese-Japanese food and uninterrupted time outs for their sutta and gossip breaks in office. Nothing wrong in these great expectations, they should get them all, BUT one should learn to work hard for these?
If they look back, they are probably making more money than their parents or other family members at their time or even now in some cases.
Corporate lawyers are sitting in AC rooms, have AC taxies to pick and drop them at the cost of their firms or clients, eat and waste any food and drinks that most of Indians can’t even afford. They don’t want to look at struggle others in the country make to achieve these, like medical practitioners, or even lawyers working in courts etc. They want to be oblivious of surroundings where their parents and seniors worked throughout life to accomplish something.
And then they make fanciest ornamental resignations, which reads better than any opinions or legal draft they ever professionally prepared or are even capable of while they were working. They want to instigate suffocate others who may be going through turbulent professional times, this is when peers should be helping to overcome the bad patch, but not pushing one down the hill?
IT IS TIME, time to change. Change your attitude, work hard for what you crave to achieve, have that gratitude in life. Be better person and better professional. Be considerate to others.
Its not that its your problem. Are you incapable of understanding the simple fact that someone making 1-2 lakhs per month in a country where the median pay is 27000 rs. objectively has it better than most other people? And that whinging from this particular subgroup that they dont get to live the life of models is kinda offensive? How blind to your own privilege can be?
Literally no one in law school tells you that law firms are easy- You learn from year one that its a grind , that its demanding, that its not stimulating- all of it. How is it cruel that you didnt listen to anyones advice or do any internships to figure out your career choices?
I'm an associate in a law firm like the vast majority of LI's audience, what makes you think I get to coast by on anyone's labour when I have to account for every minute of my work day on an ERP tool? There's nothing sadder than a working class man who has been conditioned into thinking he owes his masters his life.
If you didn't earn more at first, how's that the current generation's problem? If you don't want to pay them what they want for their work, or the work conditions that they expect, then don't hire them. Instead all that the law firms do is to paint a rosy picture before recruitment and then yank the rag out from under the kids' feet once they join, with a cruel, "Gotcha!"
Are you contributing in any way to that evolution? Or are you demanding to profit and coast on the labour of others? You want to be a leisure class you become a freaking zamindar. Why did you go into a professional career?
I dont chaff my own wheat- but I dont whine about the relatively easy work I do more than people who do work on farms or oil rigs.
Its victim mentality. Yall don't know what the pay was or even what part of the legal profession I am in. My first salary was 15k per month. It was barely enough to survive in my city. I lived in a PG and ate exactly one roll every day- that was all the food I could afford. I worked for 18 months without even so much as a weekend because there was that much work to do and people were counting on me- these people were rape victims. And guess what? I'm better for it. It cauterized my weaknesses, and made me a better lawyer and a better person. And now people in the profession and my clients trust me enough to let me name my price, and let me take care of them. Buck the hell up.
Yall get paid more than 90% of the country makes and to sit in an ac room and do due diligence. and you have the audacity to cry about it? Don't you have any self-awareness? Why do you think influencers on your screen are more real than thousands of poor starving people in the country? What a privileged and cruel thing to do this stuff is. Aren't you supposed to be the generation that cares about social justice? Why are you this blind to how good you have it? I think it is actually soul destroying this kind of thinking. Getting out of law school- you make more than most of your professors in your law school- Do you not appreciate what a gift that is given how much of a scam law school is nowadays?
Or is your alleged leftism only existing till the point it makes you an oppressed class and no further?
Please spare me about all this complex legal work yall are doing. Most jobbing corp lawyers can't answer basic contract law questions in an interview.
Life is not about you having more or better or whatever else. It is not about you not envying models. It is not about you laying in the park in the middle of the day soaking up sunlight. You think all of that will make you happy- it just won't. It will never be enough if all you want to do is consume. Life is about contributing- what are you doing to be of service to others, be they your family, your friends, your firm, your clients, your profession, your community, or your country? What tangible goods have you produced? That's what actually fills the void in your soul. Why has no one told you this yet? Why have you lived such a poorly examined life? Cry for help, survival- this from folks who make six figures minimum and find most of their food on swiggy/zomato, rent posh apartments in the best places in the city and spend their weekends getting drunk. Give me a break with this nonsense. It is honestly insulting. Do you even know how much a packet of milk costs? I'm betting money you dont even know because you buy it without thinking whether you can afford it. And yet there is no end to the hyperbole.
This website constantly encourages this stuff as well. They need to freaking self-reflect if they think any of this is worthwhile discourse. Do you think you're being a force for good in the world allowing this kind of indulgence? The world is literally going to hell in a handbaskets and people on here cannot do anything else other than whine about how bad they have it because they have to work. At their jobs- which most of the country cannot dream of.
The next generation will be ashamed of you. You will be ashamed of the stuff you believe in ten years. Be better.
Society is meant to progress to need less labour for more profit - that is the evolution of mankind. I assume you don't chaff your own wheat or mill your own oil either. If you're working that hard, you shouldn't have time to be setting up threads on Legally India yet here you are on a weekday crying about children.
Because of seniors like you, I regret deciding to continue practicing law even though I love this field very much. I don't have personal time for personal development or doing things that I find interesting. I feel guilty if I'm free before 9pm and honestly, even then, there's nothing I can do to breathe life into anything other than my useless deliverables. There are engineers, BBA graduates and other professionals who earn much less for the same salary. Also, you can't pretend that the current generation is that bad. We make the same amount of money as you did 10 years ago despite the increasing cost of living. The transactions we engage in and the law we handle are much more complex than what you used to at our level. We have to bear the heavy psychological weight of witnessing the glorious and beautiful lives of people who are much less educated than us due to the excessive penetration of social media. I often think that if I could save an extra hour every day or if my boss were a little better manager, my life would be so much better. Our struggles will likely cause the next generation to make very different choices or our previous generations will realize the mistakes they made, but either way, the generation you called out will be wiped out. This is not self-centered narcissism. It is a cry for help for ourselves. It's not ingratitude, it's survival.
How elitist is that! Like there’s no dignity in labour. I respect a day labourer a thousand times more than these spoilt lazy kids. I’d rather we pay the money to the day labourers too.
Mazdoor h kya ki wok hard work hard laga rkha h tum seniors ne. Duniya technology k sahare kaha se kaha poch aur tum kue k mendak ki trah bss gadha mazdoori krwate ho juniors se.
Are you sure you are as good a lawyer you claim to be? Because this is quite basic and even a law firm person knows this, and I understand that you believe law firm people are incompetent and under-performers.
You think maybe youngsters today demand more because they know their right and their worth so they won't go without a fight and maybe that makes oldies like you angry because you couldn't do the same? So instead of being happy for them, you just put them down because you are a sadist person?
And you think maybe you believe that just because you had a hard time (whatever is your definition of a hard time is) and you chose not to join a law firm (even though you could, and nobody would stop you) everyone should follow your footsteps and look upto you as some saviour of humanity even if you have no major contribution in their lives except for putting them down?
They should have been more tolerant.
Don’t you feel awful admitting you’re such a bad hire that they made a mistake taking you?
What’s wrong in using all illicit tactics to get rid of your notice period by start abusing your seniors in said glorified resignation?
What’s wrong in becoming stooge of said partner and leaking only selected communication (read glorified resignation) and concealing all subsequent apologies by the younger generation A0?
What’s wrong in demeaning the profession and a very respected work place only for your personal short term gains?
What’s wrong in sensationalism and wasting time of several other youngsters and stooping this low?
Where will this lead our youngsters to ? Even I am one and have this question ?
Like I said corp firms hire the way they do because it works out for them economically to not waste time or money on a long process for every new hire. They know many of you will not perform and never rise above being an associate. They also know they will have to fire some of you. They’re making a bet. They need hundreds of people a year and they’re optimising their process.
This isn’t about them. This is about you. You need to take control and responsibility for your choices and your life. Be an adult.
When you have no argument one resorts to ad homonym . I’m far better educated than you are cause I don’t ask for evidence and then just dismiss it. You’re embarrassing yourself.
It is your fault for not making the most of the opportunities you've been given in life. And it is your fault for not recognizing your class privilege.
or read this economist article https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty
Having conviction in your polarised opinions dont make them true. Capitalism has undoubtedly pulled millions out of poverty. Does that mean we dont need labour regulation or taxation ? of course not. But youre not about labour regulation or taxation- youre about ending work so you can lounge around and have other people pay the bill. Its a silly point of view if you think about it for more than one second.
People working in law firms have to work pretty hard and it should be the least expected thing to have substantial savings for that amount of hard work. But the situation is becoming worse and and worse. Rents and inflation are skyrocketing but still retainer amounts are a decade old because nobody wants to loosen their purse strings even a tiny bit.
If you don’t want the firm taking a cut - you could go start your own practice. But you’d have trouble landing clients like they do - that takes work too. That’s how any law firm works. Has no one thought about this stuff more than one second?
What is abuse? Telling someone their work is no good cannot be abuse. That is where we are at. Don't keep moving goalposts ya. First it was " I cant go home early enough to do things I want" now its abuse and bad behavior. No one thinks that actual abuse is okay. But honestly yall whinge on here so much about not living like instagram influences that its crazy. Its enough to give everyone in the profession pause about working with any of the new people.
Problem starts when incompetencies are punished.
“Arrogant people are non-learners. They invest their energies in maintaining a cozy feeling of complacency, and complacency is the biggest single enemy to the process of continuously learning from experience. Arrogant people are exactly the sort of people who are destined to have one year's experience 20 times rather than 20 years' worth of experience.“
In my thirties. I have plenty of time left I can spare a minute or two to call you out on the bullshit. If you led a better examined life you wouldn’t have to cling to your youth as if it were a virtue.
Not everyone wants to do well. The scam/ hustle culture is quite big among young people. They do think all they need to do is to be able to talk themselves out of doing hard work. Not every problem you have starts with someone else being in sufficiently motivational or mentoring or whatever. Sometimes it’s just about you expecting these things on a platter. You need to work on your own motivation. And if you demonstrate drive and commitment sooner or later someone will mentor you- the profession exists because of that. But you can’t make your self improvement or lack of it someone else’s fault. That’s not how adult life works.
This is how law school kids complain “ oh I don’t study cause the prof doesn’t seem fun “ - it’s not his job to be. Not everything in life is about fun- his job is to teach the material- that maybe be boring material but it’s his job to teach it. And your job is to learn it even if it doesn’t give you seratonin. Cause not everything in life does.
If you think that having to share your flat with a roommate means you’re not living on luxury- I don’t know anyone who is that blind. The average law student is not supposed to be able to own or rent the year they start! If you’re spending 80 k on your rent because you’re too posh to share your flat - that just shows how spoilt and out of touch you are.
I am envious of you lot. You’ve had every opportunity and you’ve ruined them. I do hate it when corp lawyers whinge because they have absolutely no idea what anyone else in the country lives like. What is the problem with that ? Where is it written that you can only be judged by people exactly like you? You’re in a bubble. It’s not an acceptable state of affairs for everyone else to let you guys think you’re under going literal slavery when there are children in beedi and cigarette factories who go blind from working there in this country.
I do not have a problem with your average law college grad who goes into litigation or a small chamber , makes a modest amount of money or sometimes even gets paid very poorly.
People who get paid very poorly should whinge, and scream and fight and unionise until they get a living wage.
That is just not you. 15 k ten years ago was not 45 k. Please go check inflation indices instead of making shit up. You’re not in law school anymore.
When you’re interning - you look around at what the associates are doing with your eyes. That’s part of what you’re there for. This isn’t hard. Just because someone offered you a job - doesn’t mean they’re in love with you.
2. If not, please stop micro managing what people do.
Their go-to metaphor? "You need the blazing heat of a furnace to purify gold" or perhaps a "stretch to judge how flexible the rubberband is" I'd say it's more of a half-baked excuse than a nugget of wisdom, an attempt to paint their old-school hazing as a badge of honour. I bet the fresh lot can value genuine mentorship and a dash of tough love. However, there’s a difference between that and a senior mistaking their gray hair for a license to play the nightmare-inducing boogeyman.
Cutting to the chase: every profession has its pompous balloons waiting to be popped. I've had the, let's say, "pleasure" of dealing with these so-called legal titans—the ones paraded as the cream of the crop. And boy, have I been left scratching my head! Not to toot my own horn, but we're talking basics here, folks. So, whenever someone starts waxing poetic about the 'golden days of lawyering,' I can't help but visualize a steaming, freshly served plate of... let's just say, a cow's generous donation to our environment.
Lastly, and just for the record, there's not even a shred of empirical evidence that supports the notion that a tormented soul drafts better documents or magically enhances one’s ability to dot the i's and cross the t's.
Alas for posh apartments, in the city. The rent is ideally 80K above. No associate (given most of them make betweel 1L-1.5L during the course of their 3-4 ywar associate ship) rents out such places if they want to have anything resembling privacy. Fancy apartments only if you room/flat share with 3 or 4 other people. That's not a house or a home. That's a stop gap arrangement till you make some money when you can afford a house closer to the city, with your spouses salary combined. So boomer aunty/uncle, please stop assuming we all have it too easy.
And do not want to change or quit. When asked to do better, start criticising the world. Where is the self respect in that?
Law profession is demanding, law firms are more, lawyers are known for perfections in their work. All those who have it and are willing to give their best, will veritably succeed and will get all their demands fulfilled.
And others will keep whining and complaining and keep demanding, changing jobs, complaining every boss, criticising system. And once you are lawyer, you are not a kid anymore.
I literally worked with rape victims for years after law school and you want to mock that? - it was that famous ngo in bombay if you really care. But I'm not gonna doxx myself more to children on the internet. You sure youre better than me? That seems moral to you?
I'm absolutely none of those things you think about me. And your assumptions say more about your victim mentality and "if anyone disagrees with me they must be evil" thinking than they do about me.
I pay my juniors and interns exceedingly well- but if they dont perform they know they will have to go elsewhere soon. I wont carry people who will waste my time or put my clients in harms way. Not for a day longer than necessary. And I dont hire just anyone. I had zero connections in law. Literally first generation college student. I dont yell at people. I got yelled at a lot and I myself get quite anxious around people who yell. I pay freaking traffic fines. No corruption. Turns out you can make an honest living when you work hard and are good at your job. Shock! Horror!
And I didnt block FDI- but please do not assume any foreign law firm would hire slackers who cant put in billable hours. It is literally a pop culture trope about how american lawyers in big law are cutthroat and how difficult it is to stay on at a firm or advance in your career without putting in crazy hours. I know quite a few colleagues from law school who took the magic circle route- they may have a yearly vacation now and then- but they work crazy hours the rest of the time. No one gets home at 5 pm to ride off to the beach to watch the sunset with their model girlfriend. And those places will expect quality analytical and detail oriented folks to do the work. Like 10% of firm lawyers in india would even be considered. Why do you think consultancies that can hire in india dont hire from most indian law schools- even nls they only take a couple every few years. They are chock full of engineers though because those guys work hard.
I dont have children- but if I did I would dissuade them from going into big law with these grand expectations of utopia. And I would teach them the social, economic, and spiritual value of hard work. Leave your campsite better than you find it dude. If you can only think about how your life is not perfect- you get myopic and dont realise the house nextdoor is burning.
If you’re the sort of person who took a firm seriously when (if) they told you you’d have the free time of a Kim kardashian - I mean theres no warning you at that point. Do you want to buy a talking dog ? I’m a Nigerian Prince send me your account details.
These places make you work long hours - that had been true for freaking years. Ask anyone. On the flip side they actually pay you well for your time unlike cab drivers and delivery boys who work the same hours , do harder manual labour, and then get a pittance for their trouble.
1. Why have offices in Nariman point/lower Parel where one can't afford a house (and if they don't it's usually a dinghy dark place without Any balconies) and spends hours on the road a day getting to these places and going back home. And please don't give me the crap.about client needs- in thia day amd age where VCs are the norm. Sure, go ajead and even have a fancy sea facing office for meetings- working offices can be at places where humans can live in a place called home (and it's not that, if there's no balcony) and not in boxes. This location thing, is just to serve the interests of those senior partners who have fancy bungalows in hanging gardens and whatnot. That for every senior partner, atleast, 50 people travel distances exceeding 45 minutes a day- is just sheer stupidity.
2. Ensuring bonuses are paid on time and firms don't use bonus as a retention tool such that anytime you leave, you leave money on the table.
3. Not even offering a lunch- most other corporate organisations atleast offer lunch. A single migrant kid having to figure out his bread on a daily basis- is not easy.
1. expecting better systems/devices? A one time investment of 50-75K extra is a big ask in a sector which sees 80-90% yearly ROI?
2. Doing two jobs (given that most people well work beyond the 8 hours) and getting paid for it, handsomely? You don't even offer any retirals (PF, gratuity etc). Now take the case of IIT-IIM grads and I take them cos our nat law/tier 1 schools who make the majority of law firm resources, make the same or in some cases more money on graduation. They do one job (most of them have 10-6/7 job, unless they with one of the investment banks or EYs/PWCs).
3. Asking for the best deals and best work? Surely, nobody is interested in doing some meaningless work. Hell, the more complex and Sevier the transaction- the more you learn. Sure, you need to have the skills to be able to deliver- but as long as that's there, why shouldn't kids be demanding for this?
1. Life is all about evolution. Do you guys follow what your parents tell you? For all the PAs and partners in their 30s-40s, chances are you were quite the rebel in your younger days and continue to be so, wrt your parents and their advise. So please don't do this- "oh we had it so difficult, this how we grew, this how you must also grow" shit. Life and work is ever evolving and we must always adapt. Not be boomer-dinos.
2. Granted that useful skills such as proper proofing, research, formatting, etc is important. But guys come on, living in the times that we are in, all of this can be outsourced and to a large extent is now being done by the computers and AI. Given that most associates atleast in their first two years only do this, no point harassing them about this beyond a certain point.
3. When we started working, there was no concept of work life balance. Working from home. Not Even bloody HSE (health safety environment) clauses in contracts. These days firms send weekly updates on these topics. Who's to blame? The very fact that firms are writing this is because of the lessons learnt from.the horror stories that our generation went through. To then say that oh you must also go through this cos we went through this is pure crap. It must be quite the contrary- because I went through this and it affected me, I won't let you go through this- should be the Mantra that all PAs and partners adopt.
4. The very topic assumes that we as old school lawyers had to go through shit and the genz doesn't and that is somehow wrong. Perhaps a little self reflection on why you went through shit is necessary. Cos if you were super good, you wouldn't have gone through shit in the first place. You weren't good either in your younger years- so accept that lawyers will evolve with age and can't expect them to be superstars right out of college.
5. An average law school kid probably spent 10-12 hours a day sleeping. To then shock his body suddenly with a 4-6 hour sleep schedule (and in some cases, worse than that) is Gunatanamo bay level torture. This needs to be worked up gradually. This is also a factor of an associate being involved in his job and liking it- things which are very difficult in the abstract without context and not having any foresight of why they are doing what they are doing. How many of you boomers take a first year associate to a negotiation? Hence,please understand that it is not fair to expect 23 year old kids to fall in love with their jobs and blindly do everything without question.
6. Drafting is a skill that evolves with age and life experiences. Hell,even commitment to a job is directly proportional to the personal commitments that you have. How can you expect a 23-25 ywar old without any familiar commitments to have a high sense of responsibility and commitment to the job?
To all the genz lawyers- hang in there, these horrible bosses and boomers notwithstanding. Lawyers evolve with age. You'll only be good at what you do if you like doing it. That usually comes with more responsibility and visibility on the impact that your work has. And also being given importance. All of this will come. You need to ask as many questions as you can- be as involved as you can, so that you get to the place where you start liking the Job. In fact in my view, the sole purpose of getting to an SA must be to get to a place where you have little more responsibility and ability to fall in love with the job. All the very best- 2012 lawyer. Have been both in house and in a law firm (currently in a law firm- before the boomer defending folks start jumping at the in house reference).
It is not the aspirational middle class who must feel guilty for the inequality in this country.
First questions first, how much do you pay your juniors? Your office staff ? Since you love to contribute to society and are able to charge whatever price you quote from your clients - that’s a material question.
Your generation was apparently doing ‘rape’ cases and now are successful enough to name your price for clients? Please enlighten us how you are contributing to society by handling presumably criminal matters at a crazy fee. These fees don’t reflect salaries of even the most successful corporate lawyers, forget litigation.
This is what your generation has done, let me give some examples:
1) many of you are in positions today thanks to your mom and dad’s connections, if you didn’t have that access - then were lucky to work hard at a time when there was hardly any competition, just take a good luck at older and younger lawyers today and you’ll get a good sense of average intelligence in each category to see where there’s more competition (many senior lawyers who charge a price they want to in my experience eat samosas and gossip all day, are insanely rude and entitled, are fixers or know the judge, no special ability is needed for these multiple talents, I’ve lost count of the No of meetings I’ve been in where this what a successful lawyer brings to the table),
2) you don’t pay your juniors because you are still stuck in your mentality of earning 15k ‘in your time’, but find is alright to charge fees that make no sense either in terms of the legal market or what other lawyers earn.
3) You love to talk about hard work but yell at people who give you coffee and cost cut for staff around you who are obv working way harder than you in pathetic conditions
4) not to mention how many of you make your money the corruption and fixing is so disgusting. Each generation of lawyers is not comfortable with this crap because we don’t want to ‘contribute’ to a shitty India. I used to live in a colony where houses worth 30 crores were owned by ‘lawyers’ I’d never heard of, and I’ve been a lawyer in delhi all my life. It’s anyone’s guess whose money they are managing. These lawyers who you are pushing to work hard can bleed themselves dry but won’t make 1/3 of that in their lifetime, even if they do, inflation will kill them. I guess dining judges, bureaucrats, and Police and helping builders is lots of hard work.
5) You’ve blocked FDI in law because it doesn’t benefit you, and you will be forced to compete with global talent; you also know your fixing and toxic slave owner mentality is hard to explain to foreign firms and lawyers. They also run lawyers to the ground, but the market has a lot more options for people who don’t want to do that kind of work, they at least have some policies that can have some effect, at least they aren’t lala firms.
I can go on .. The legal market in India is a goddamn joke.
So please, spare this crap of working hard and contributing to society - All you’ve done is line your pockets. And expect others to be subservient around you, it’s just a power move and nothing else.
The best proof of your narcissism is when your kids become lawyers and then suddenly you all are huge believers in work life balance because your daughter / son who works for 2-3 years before marriage and decides to take it easy after need to show up on time for family dinners / vacations and find working in law sooo stressful.
If you think you had a hard life, and don’t think it makes sense for the current generation to be treated with respect, then unfortunately all you learnt from your struggle is how to hustle, you need to deliberate if making things better for others is what real growth is, it’s a complete failure if each subsequent generation just wants to repeat the same thing and expect the same results. If you think everything should be the same, then by all means expect your kids to do the same without connections / breaks the way you expect from other lawyers, and see how you feel.
Dont work then if its so hard to provide an account of freaking billable hours. If you cant respect your clients time and money what makes you think anyone would want to work to provide you with leisure class life? Leave your job and go become a landlord somewhere. sit on your behind and eat rent money the rest of your life.
Whoever told you youre the proletariat lied- Its clear by this marie antoinette let them eat cake behaviour yall engage on here that youre the bourgeoise who enjoy privilege in this country.
They want highest ever compensation, window seats-sea facing to sit in office, advance tech systems to work on with their mobiles, best quality work and big deals of their asking. All this with Starbucks coffee, Chaayos tea, Chinese-Japanese food and uninterrupted time outs for their sutta and gossip breaks in office. Nothing wrong in these great expectations, they should get them all, BUT one should learn to work hard for these?
If they look back, they are probably making more money than their parents or other family members at their time or even now in some cases.
Corporate lawyers are sitting in AC rooms, have AC taxies to pick and drop them at the cost of their firms or clients, eat and waste any food and drinks that most of Indians can’t even afford. They don’t want to look at struggle others in the country make to achieve these, like medical practitioners, or even lawyers working in courts etc. They want to be oblivious of surroundings where their parents and seniors worked throughout life to accomplish something.
And then they make fanciest ornamental resignations, which reads better than any opinions or legal draft they ever professionally prepared or are even capable of while they were working. They want to instigate suffocate others who may be going through turbulent professional times, this is when peers should be helping to overcome the bad patch, but not pushing one down the hill?
IT IS TIME, time to change. Change your attitude, work hard for what you crave to achieve, have that gratitude in life. Be better person and better professional. Be considerate to others.
Learn and DO NOT BE entitled.
Literally no one in law school tells you that law firms are easy- You learn from year one that its a grind , that its demanding, that its not stimulating- all of it. How is it cruel that you didnt listen to anyones advice or do any internships to figure out your career choices?
I dont chaff my own wheat- but I dont whine about the relatively easy work I do more than people who do work on farms or oil rigs.
Yall get paid more than 90% of the country makes and to sit in an ac room and do due diligence. and you have the audacity to cry about it? Don't you have any self-awareness? Why do you think influencers on your screen are more real than thousands of poor starving people in the country? What a privileged and cruel thing to do this stuff is. Aren't you supposed to be the generation that cares about social justice? Why are you this blind to how good you have it? I think it is actually soul destroying this kind of thinking. Getting out of law school- you make more than most of your professors in your law school- Do you not appreciate what a gift that is given how much of a scam law school is nowadays?
Or is your alleged leftism only existing till the point it makes you an oppressed class and no further?
Please spare me about all this complex legal work yall are doing. Most jobbing corp lawyers can't answer basic contract law questions in an interview.
Life is not about you having more or better or whatever else. It is not about you not envying models. It is not about you laying in the park in the middle of the day soaking up sunlight. You think all of that will make you happy- it just won't. It will never be enough if all you want to do is consume. Life is about contributing- what are you doing to be of service to others, be they your family, your friends, your firm, your clients, your profession, your community, or your country? What tangible goods have you produced? That's what actually fills the void in your soul. Why has no one told you this yet? Why have you lived such a poorly examined life? Cry for help, survival- this from folks who make six figures minimum and find most of their food on swiggy/zomato, rent posh apartments in the best places in the city and spend their weekends getting drunk. Give me a break with this nonsense. It is honestly insulting. Do you even know how much a packet of milk costs? I'm betting money you dont even know because you buy it without thinking whether you can afford it. And yet there is no end to the hyperbole.
This website constantly encourages this stuff as well. They need to freaking self-reflect if they think any of this is worthwhile discourse. Do you think you're being a force for good in the world allowing this kind of indulgence? The world is literally going to hell in a handbaskets and people on here cannot do anything else other than whine about how bad they have it because they have to work. At their jobs- which most of the country cannot dream of.
The next generation will be ashamed of you. You will be ashamed of the stuff you believe in ten years. Be better.