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I’m sure it feels personal to him when he works as hard as he does and people still trash him. during the years he taught me I disagreed with him several times and criticised him to his face and as long as it was clear that the criticism was coming from a constructive place he bore it with good humor and grace and even changed his behaviour. This anonymous dragging name in mud stuff isn’t on. LI would have marked this whole thread as controversial and facts contested if it was any other VC.
As for his marking, he does mark decently well for a person of his repute. He’s a great teacher, administrator maybe not so much.
I don’t need teachers to explain or spoonfeed things to me. I’m perfectly capable of reading on my own. I need teachers to guide, sharpen my thinking and to challenge me. I’m clearly getting more out of this situation than you are. It’s not a crime to point out that students may have some work to do.
You need to work on seeing people as people. And not as punching bags.
We hope this mail finds you well. This is a representation from the students of the A section of the third year BALLB batch. We regret to write to you, but we feel that we have no alternative at this time, and we must address our grievances in regard to our professor for [...], Professor [...].
As a class, we feel that we are uncomfortable with Prof. [...], and [...] pedagogy. We understand that every professor has their own pedagogy. However, we feel that the professor has been, at times, condescending in [...] actions, and [...] behaviour seems to be disproportionate and arbitrary, as perceived by many students. There have been multiple instances of students getting their attendance cut despite being present in the class, students being punished by cutting their attendance if they cannot answer questions in class, and a general unwillingness to engage with students when they bring up these concerns. Unfortunately, Professor [...] has generally turned down individual requests with an aggressive and demeaning undertone. [...] has indicated a general sense of apathy towards such requests and concerns. These are not incidents in isolation, as they have affected most of the class. We are only writing this mail after a significant majority voted to do so. The attendance issues, in particular, have affected a considerable number of students and has resulted in sustained anxiety in class. Being denied attendance for not being able to answer questions does not account for the variance in the students’ learning methodologies and their strengths and weaknesses. A few students have come close to the 75% attendance requirement which has obvious detrimental consequences. We feel that such a practice is patently harsh and extreme. This has also created a perception of the professor being vindictive against the entire section over multiple issues. Moreover, there have been incidents where students who have not done the reading are not given the answer to any doubt they raised. Similarly, their attempt to answer any question was not considered due to not completing the reading. This has dented the tendency of students to participate freely in class. We believe that such questions or answers, if relevant, should be considered instead of being treated with cold reception. Professor's dismissive responses have affected student engagement with the overall course.
Further, there have been instances of Professor giving, what we assume, are veiled threats. On multiple occasions we have been told that ‘soft’ leniency will not be shown to us, on account of us not doing readings etc. [...] has explained this soft leniency to be the way the course will be paced or the attendance requests [...] will entertain, or the way the consults will go. While we understand that this may be seen as a tactic to encourage students, we feel it has turned extremely detrimental and is taking a toll on our mental health. There have been multiple incidents where a student has had a conversation over attendance or other issues with the professor only to cave in, scared that they will arbitrarily have their marks cut in the viva. Additionally, we were told that if any plagiarism is detected in our rough drafts, our potential employers will be informed of the same along with a negative evaluation of our work ethic. Notwithstanding the tensed atmosphere this has created in the section, this interpretation of plagiarism is not as per what has been explained to us all throughout law school. We respect the plagiarism rules for the projects and do not, in any way, support plagiarism by any student. We feel that a rough draft is still an unfinished document open to review and appropriate criticism. We respect criticism given by the professor made to aid the research and the project. Making it a basis for a potential DARIC proceeding seems an aggravated and extreme interpretation of the plagiarism rules under the relevant institution codes. More importantly, such harsh plagiarism standards employed for rough drafts also carried with them a threatening undertone. What is truly unfortunate, however, is that we were explicitly threatened with the same. Sadly, Professor used the phrase, "I will end you". A threat, especially from someone in authority and at a position of power, is disheartening and affects collective morale. We do not intend to suggest policing the Professor in any way. We just request that any concerns be worded in a less aggressive manner and if possible, in stern yet amiable ways.
The only reason we are not listing individual instances in this email is that we do not want to send personal identifiers. There is significant tension in the section considering that almost all of us, if not everyone, are very concerned about attendance and grading. The general sentiment in the batch had been of submission and anxiety. This mail is the result of many concerns which had piled up without any resolution in context of the above mentioned reservations.
We implore that you read our request and consider what we can do about this. To go on like this for the rest of the trimester would not be ideal for any student. Before there is a serious incident, or a student who feels they cannot reach out to anyone anymore, we would appreciate a resolution of the same. This entire scenario has taken a significant mental toll on us. Concluding, to reiterate, our letter is in no way meant to be disrespectful towards the Professor. We acknowledge and deeply respect [...] command over the subject. We only request compassion and consideration towards any issues which affect student well being.
Warm Regards
Section A
And plagiarism is not about paraphrasing just enough to avoid getting caught. it's about approaching your work with honesty and integrity. Even rough drafts shouldn't have any plagiarism because it makes no sense! why would would have a sentence in your paper in any form that's not credited or written by yourself? At least leave a notation there that says that you will put in a citation later! Rough drafts are submitted so the teacher can help give feedback on your thesis and analysis, not on whether or not you passed the plagiarism test. When I went to an elite institution for my masters- not an ivy- this other indian student plagiarised and they literally sent a letter to the bar council so she couldn't enroll because of ethical violation. Its not unheard of for ethical violations to have consequences. This professor is probably used to a culture where ethics are taken more seriously.
This teacher seems to have gone to lengths in fighting with students and all which maybe I would not have but it is easy enough to imagine his frustration.
Add to that the entitlement from the students is a little concerning no. They want essentially for there to be no verifying that they have come prepared. they want to be rewarded for not doing readings, to be allowed to swallow class time by doling out uninformed opinions that are not backed up by any close reading of texts, and they want the professor to look the other way on plagiarism and listen to their every request and concern. Hes your professor, not your butler. These students dont seem to want any consequences and a free grade. Which really isn't what NLS should be about.
What did tyrion lannister say in GOT? " I'm not threatening your king, I'm educating my nephew". It seems like the professor was just educating these students and informing them that they dont live in a consequence free society and they do have to work to earn grades is part of that.
And this calling everything anxiety and mental health is insulting to people who actually struggle with mental health problems. Very ablist.
I will not refute all points here - some are correct - and for others, I simply do not have the time to engage. However, I would like to point out that attendance is a right, not a 'reward' as you mistakenly think. The attendance is a document of record, please get this straight. If a student is an accused in a criminal investigation, it is their alibi - no one cares if the student came prepared; if the student came to class, the attendance should reflect it. If you mark otherwise, be careful that you are, quite literally, falsifying records - not as ethically enlightened a position as the rest of your reply sounds, does it?
Think of it also this way, if a student writes 'Shove a brinjal up your butt' as an answer to an exam question, it is an answer as a matter of record. That fact that they will be marked zero for that response is separate - they have to be marked.
At the elite institution where I did my masters- it would have been shameful and unthinkable to even go to class without preparing. And if you did I have seen people being asked to leave.
No court in the land will use attendance as a way to alibi someone. It’s supposed to measure class participation and whether or not you’ve done the work to be in class. It’s not a CCTV camera for heavens sake.
Plus, it’s not our fault you didn’t make your case with concerned authorities for the teachers who shut the door when the bell goes off. Your experiences and lack of courage to fight for your rights doesn’t mean others have to follow the same footprints. Perhaps some of us believe in leaving a better legacy. One where the teachers aren’t always correct. Sure, they need to be respected for what they’re doing, but there’s a reason there are regulations which prevent teachers from hitting students. We are being trained to be lawyers, it wouldn’t harm us to fight for our own right in the first place before representing others.
This is also why closing the doors at exactly 9 a.m. is absolutely correct: the attendance is for a specific time period. If you cannot physically make it, too bad.
If you have gone to elite institutions, you might recall that none of them actually take attendance in the form of a roll call like Indian institutions do. The fact that they asked you to leave does not result in anything - even if you get asked to leave everyday you can still write the exam. Sure, the teacher may ask you to meet them for concern regarding your performance. However, if you simply did not show up, you do not get that privilege of even writing the exam.
For what it is worth one of my professors did pass around a sheet for attendance each class and she did strike our names off if we failed the cold call. As long as the rules for the game are notified before hand- you can’t cry foul later.
The reason you don’t get to write exams if you don’t show up for class is because the university and professors get measured by how well their students do- and if their students don’t come to class at least some of time- there’s no way to tell what we’re measuring. The bar council requires a certain number of class hours for each subject and for students to attend a certain percentage of those class hours. Think about why they ask for this for two seconds and tell me it’s about someone being physically somewhere. It absolutely is a measure of whether teaching and learning is being done with integrity.
You and I might think it’s unfair as a rule. And I do for the record think attendance is an unfair rule. But as long as the rule is clearly notified, as long as the professor has been clear about what counts as attending his class - That makes it a rule you have to follow.
Not all academic evaluation is done on a grading scale of O- F. Some metrics are pass fail. Attendance is pass fail. If you don’t understand that you need to think about pedagogy more.
I am so saddened by your anonymous comment on LI that I will throw my LL.M., PhD and postdoc experience from some of the world's top universities, and some stellar student evaluations into the trash and resign immediately because your have opined. I get it, you opine for free, and I appreciate your generosity in providing mankind with this blessing.
For a substantive comment, please see my reply to #3.1.1.A.
Please homeschool your kids.
For what it’s worth- if there was a threat ( and I’m not sure there was) I don’t think that’s a good thing and the teacher should receive censure. But it does seem like the prof was driven up a wall and frustrated to an extreme by the students here. And those words were aimed at a whole bunch of people not at an individual- and said in the context of setting expectations for the class/ so I’m not sure that’s a threat.
Universities don’t exist for students. I don’t know who told you that but it just is not true. Universities exist for learning. If students behave in a way that runs contrary to the project of learning- then yes- students opinions shouldn’t count.
Universities are not pure democracy. There’s a reason we don’t let our students set our syllabus and evaluate their own answer scripts. That would frustrate actual learning. All reasonable people understand this. You can’t bully your way to a degree. You e gotta work for it and someone has to hold you accountable and make sure you’re doing the work.
Universities are not theme parks and you are not a customer and a degree is not a product to be sold.
If you want something different you should home school your kids.
however the rest of the tactics used by the faculty is fine (even at first glance they may look harsh), get over it and do the readings
The brand was built because we all took the job seriously. Professors would prepare and turn up ready to teach. Students would prepare and turn up ready to learn. We took the learning project seriously. Not like today.
Go talk to some alumni who you think are successful. Ask them how much they worked in law school- who their favourite professors are. You won’t hear the names of scam profs. And you’ll hear them all invariably say that they approached their course work with integrity.
Ahahhhahah
Worst of all - please let us plagiarize in rough drafts? SERIOUSLY? This used to be so rampant in my time in law school and I'm glad someone is drawing the line but come on? Do they even realize how they are sounding?
/s
I doubt India’s best students behave this way.
Nls kids also have some major victim complex about the trimester system. Universities across the world follow a quarter system. Is it difficult ? Yes. Should getting a degree from India’s best law school be difficult ? Yes. You’re not owed a degree because you did well at one stupid exam when you’re 17. You earn the degree through the five years.
How are students working hard when they’re not reading for class and plagiarising in rough drafts?
I don’t think the prof in question is communicating well. This “I will end you“ stuff is not on but I think the students need a reality check. There are consequences in the real world for not doing your job. You get fired, demoted, lose out on bonuses, you lose the respect of your colleagues. Law school is very much part of the real world.
Fair, clat is simply not the fairest method of evaluation of legal aptitude. However, expecting each and every student to complete a certain set of academic work on a day-to-day basis is simply implausible.
Also, you yourself pointed out the actual difference between jobs and colleges. People are more efficient in jobs because they are paid for it. Universities are meant to inculcate learning and research skills in students, not shove it down their throats.
If being a good student is not a priority for you- you have accept that you’ll have bad grades and attendance shortages and generally have a tough time getting through law school. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
So if you don’t read - you don’t get to ask questions or go on and on in class. You don’t get to claim attendance if you haven’t done the work to be in that class. If you plagiarise you run the risk of being disciplined for it. That’s just called living in a society. You have consequences in real life.
No one owes you a degree because you passed clat. And no one owes you a degree or good grades or anything like that because you paid fees. By that logic students on fee waivers and scholarships should be measured by a different curve? That’s insane. You pay for the opportunity to learn. If you choose to not make the most of that opportunity, university still has to be truthful about how much work you have done.
This idea that professionalism is only expected when one is getting paid for it ? What? I’m sorry no. Students are expected to be professional because a university classroom is a professional atmosphere. The university can’t “inculcate” learning by inception. It can’t get in your head and make you care about your own education. It can try to set a culture of honesty and integrity and eagerness to learn. That’s what it is doing when punishing plagiarism and discouraging people from turning up to classes unprepared.
I have been a student. I was a bad student also. Didn’t plagiarise but didn’t prepare for classes all the time and when I didn’t - I just didn’t attend the class. And I missed deadlines and I failed courses. And when I faced consequences - like not getting attendance, getting marks cut for late submissions, failing things by even a point, I took it on the chin like an adult. At that point of time other things were more important for me and that was reflected in my transcript. I didn’t write petition to lower standards for everyone.
Biometric or a swipe card.
But on the bit about the Professor not "giving them answers to doubts" because the students haven't done their readings, really now? Don't see why the Prof should have to spoon feed them if they are unwilling to put in the work. Also don't understand why plagiarism should be considered acceptable in the rough drafts but not in the final drafts, if the rough drafts are the basis on which the final drafts are cleared. Seems like students trying to capitalise on Turnitin arbitrage i.e. putting in other people's work and claiming it as their own in rough drafts and then changing the language so it passes the Turnitin test in the final draft.
None of this excuses disrespectful behaviour on the Professor's side of course. There is a real disparity of power between the teacher and the student, and that needs to be kept in mind in the course of communication with the class. If the communication style is what is creating anxiety then that needs to be addressed by the Prof, but if it's the standards that are being imposed on the students, sounds like they need to introspect.
CLAT is a joke. I say this as an NLS alumni who got in through clat.
When a smart person gets into NLS (and receives the associated accolades), they start believing their INHERENT talent will get them through life and win them many laurels. Guess what? False. Learn to love hardwork or prepare to fail.
Some courses are easy - yes. You don't need to burn the midnight oil for Consumer Protection or whatever. But if you think you can walk into a jurisprudence class without doing the reading, I'd be quite embarrassed. And to then complain about the teacher pulling you up for it shows that you peeps are completely out of touch with what can be expected. You want to be Harvard of the East? ask yourself if anyone in Harvard will dare to do this!
Quality education is a two way street. If you want your prof to write you letters of recommendation for LLMs and exchange programs, please show some respect in the classroom. If not to the prof, at least to the learning process.
Maybe people like you will go to the nearest police station and file a complaint saying abetment of suicide because my comments hurt the scamster's mental health.
Your liberal use of "mental health" is truly a disservice to the sincere movement that is ongoing.
You’re not five year olds who need puppets to understand the ABC’s.
You get this once in a life time chance to study at this place, make something of yourself. Thousands would literally give an arm and a leg. And instead of being active participants in your learning you’re gonna sit back like you’re watching Netflix and judge the prof for not being engaging enough?
Professors aren’t employed because they’re interesting to watch- if that was the criteria we’d have movie stars and clowns being hired. Professors are hired because they know the subject matter.
2. There is a huge power differential between a Professor and her students. A threat in any form, be it a veiled threat or a direct one, is not acceptable, be it in National Law School or any other institution.
3. There is a need for students to come together collectively to condemn any such behaviour.
4. It is not a faculty v students issue, there is a need to ensure that faculty members are aware of the power differential and learn to exercise restraint.
However one part of the complaint sticks out as being super entitled. The students are aggrieved that the prof doesn't answer their queries if they don't do the reading. I mean, c'mon. This is basic. Do you think you are HC judges who are asking senior counsel to assist them even without having read the papers?
I hate it when my friends comment on movies without having seen them based on reviews. Same logic
the mantra is simple - do the goddamn reading or shut up. I can imagine over enthu cutlets wanting to show how smart they are by framing comments as Qs. This is annoying, usually for narcissistic goals. If you are interested in learning, do the reading. Else shut up. Otherwise you'll have a whole bunch of people talking about something they have no clue about and detracting from the learning outcomes of those who cared enough to prep for class. This is NLSIU, not 9th standard. Classes require preparation. You are not spoon fed.
This is the sense of entitlement that will get you nowhere. If you sit in an advanced math class without knowing basic math, the teacher is not paid to answer your questions about basic math so that you can get it, even if it's at the cost of others.
If i go to watch certain Marvel movies without watching the earlier ones, the filmmakers are not duty bound to get me upto speed or explain the references. If the experience you are paying for requires certain baseline knowledge, that is up to you to obtain.
My goodness... Do you also annoy your friends by insisting on playing board games without knowing or reading up the rules? I totally know this type.
They’re paid to help you develop legal skills. Part of that is reading stuff on your own, analysing it, and then coming together to discuss the materials -what worked and what didn’t and test your ideas and arguments against the professor and build on that knowledge.
This banking model of education is long gone. You want tuition classes where some poor depressed soul will sit all hours of the day trying to get you to do your homework but then he gives up and just teaches you how to do it himself- go back to 12th grade.
Alumni from elite institutions don’t want to waste their time being your customer service representatives. They had better jobs on offer but chose teaching because they value the job- and if students want these professors to keep coming back and teaching - if they want the recommendation letters that come with them, if they want people doing research projects they can RA with, if they want people who have numbers of law firm partners on their phone cause they went to law school together. They want coaching to win moots and publish papers and all that. If students want all the benefits of a brand like NLS and the benefits of having professors who have greater exposure and better training- then the students better start bringing their A game too. Quality of education is a two way street as someone else said on this thread.
If you don’t want any of that- you want just to be spoon fed material- there’s many places in the country you can go for that. But it’s not what nls is about.
Faculty members absolutely are teaching when they’re holding you accountable and making you study. They are doing their job when they’re asking you questions and making you think. Legal texts are dense and complicated and to think you want to understand that stuff by having someone explain it to you like a YouTube video tells me how rigorous you want your education to be. Good teachers don’t spoon feed.
You don’t pay for people to invest knowledge into your brain. You pay for the opportunity to learn. Go look at the aims of the course in your course document. Look at all your course documents.
At the end of the day boss it’s your education. If you’re not gonna be an active participant, if you’re not gonna do your work- there’s only so much you’re gonna get out of it. Doesn’t make it the teachers fault.
Also consider that those jobs have been on a decline for years now.
It’s not a threat for a teacher to say to a classroom of students that if they plagiarise they will suffer consequences.
Do I like the language the prof used ? No. I’d never use it myself. But y’all keep using threat as it means something. And sure if you say “ I will end you “ to the guy you don’t like in your class - that’s a threat. But it a prof is saying that to a room full of students in the context of “ do not plagiarise, do not mess with me, if you do you won’t like what happens next”. It’s unpleasant yes, but it’s still just setting expectations.
It’s not just plagiarism in the “ oh I forgot to cite stuff” sense either is it ? Unlike what one might think after reading the batch representation this is just outright blatant cheating of the sort which should invite serious consequences.
"I met with the VC, the Registrar, the UGC Chair, and the SWO today regarding the complaint.
I'll be brief here. If anyone wants particular details, just call me instead.
1. The VC wants us to make a public apology at all@nls. This is in reference to the LI article and the audio recording.
2. I reiterated multiple times that the batch had never even once even entertained the idea of going to any social media. This is true as all of us have the group chat transcript. The batch mandate was never about recordings or social media articles.
3. He is of the firm view that the LI article is our fault. I told him that the article could NOT have been written by any of us since it was factually wrong in the first place. Despite this, he wouldn't relent.
4. On the recording aspect, he is pretty serious about it. He threatened to take action against the entire batch if we don't find the guy ourselves. After some negotiation, he was amenable to letting it slide if we make a public apology "with the same alacrity" as the complaint.
5. On the issue of our WhatsApp group chats being the only point of debate and conversation for the issues, he is of the view that we should have talked amongst our batchmates in class itself. Physically.
6. I repeatedly asked him whether he is implying that we should withdraw our complaint. He kept giving cryptic yet indicative answers on the same. From what I could infer, he wants us to take it back.
7. We have 2 options now. Either we make an unconditional apology alongwith withdrawing our complaint OR we make an apology with reference only to the recording and the LI article, stating we had no hand in it and condemn it in the strongest terms.
Decide."
heebiejeebies, very east german KGB like regime in Nagarbhavi looks like.
He hasn’t threatened punishment or even attempted it. Y’all are so quick to assume the worst.
Would students like it if teachers recorded everything they said in class and tried to “cancel” them online? A classroom has to mean something.
2. What is the teacher afraid of if his own words are reproduced later before others? We are not alleging that his political or religious ideas are offensive or anything of the sort. Just what he has told to the students about his own classes and academic practices. Doubtless if we had tried to complain about it before the admin, then he would have denied saying that or even worse, accused us of lying. Even with the evidence, the admin refuses to take any cognisance of his actions.
If you had trusted the admin even a little bit and gone to them with your concerns the teacher would likely have gotten a talking to and be told to be gentler in the classroom. But that’s not what you wanted no? You wanted the guy to get kicked out because you wanted to plagiarise in projects, not have to read for class, and basically be allowed to do whatever you want and still get the grade. That’s why you went this route. That’s why you didn’t trust university process.
Chalo leave trusting admin- even if you didn’t and you had to make a video- It was quite possible to make a video , tell the prof he is being recorded, and give it over to admin to consider ? Instead you put it on WhatsApp groups and posted this mess on Li. Why? Reasonable people would look at that and go - yeah these are students trying to get their way. And you should be held accountable for that.
The lying is just insane “ we as a batch agreed that we wouldn’t postt on social media” and you are still posting this stuff on social media. If you wanted a fair review you would have waited until the university process was followed. Instead you decided to put it up online to bully the profs. Sudhir doesn’t like bullies.
The leak aside, I would like to know what Sudhir is doing on the merits of the complaint? Are professors allowed to use expletives in class now? Imagine If a student had used such language when talking to a prof and the excuse was that emotions got the better of them? By asking the students withdraw the complaint, is Sudhir sending the message that misbehaviour and using expletives by Profs is allowed ?
What do you guys think a “threat “ is ?