What's actually happening in firms? Can we talk about why these 'massive' attritions are happening. Can someone who has quit recently tell us what's going on? I know several acquaintances from law school who are junior to me and were very much interested in corporate law quit a few months into their job. Money doesn't matter anymore. The huge salaries and it's attraction dies one week into the job. They've settled for decent less paying jobs in T2 hometowns to stay sane and are very happy. And mind you these aren't entitled kids but the super smart ones from middle class families who got PPOs on their own accord. And they loved what they were doing, loved corporate law etc. I've seen atleast 5-6 such instances happening in the past month and I'm really curious what's going on?
I'm guessing the lack of work from home options as a norm and not an exception. These people are wonderful assets for firms only if they maybe willing to allow them to work from wherever they were and not force them to another city in the middle of a pandemic or even otherwise.
Mental health is a huge factor too. I'm really thinking whether we gave wellness less priority while going up the ladder. Disconnected from life, family, entertainment and everything for so long has made my personality dry. This is very messed up and I'm rethinking my choices. And I'm just so glad that people are demanding for better working conditions or just quitting. That's massive self respect in play there by not letting yourself be walked over.
As someone who has recently quit, what are your thoughts? How can firms make work less hostile and more hospitable? How can people senior to you provide saner conditions? Unpaid bonuses? There's a lot...but where are we going wrong?
Have noticed CAM and some other firms have started hiring more from GLC as most students in GLC are Mumbai based. Attrition rate is high among those who are not from the city. So there might be a change in hiring pattern by these law firms but I dont think most of them would give a permanent wfh home option.
Firms should hire more from Lower Tier NLU's, Government Law College's and Private colleges after a few assessment Internships.
For A0 positions - another hidden talent is folks who have worked for 2 to 3 years at Tier 3 firms and Seniors Chambers. Easy to train and far less attrition rates.
These people will be more grateful and won't jump ships like thankless top NLU folks who think they are above everyone else.
I love that “I hire people without options and they are therefore grateful to have the job” is a flex.
What’s truly impressive is when a workplace can boast of having employees with the caliber to have real options that choose to remain/ join. That is a workplace with the best talent :)
Yeah and you’ve literally just admitted you do it because you’re looking for people with limited options who can’t jump ship :P
Nobody’s saying it’s not your choice. I’m saying your reasons for making that choice speak volumes about what your workplace is like and what it intends to be like :P
Also I'd rather have kids with immaculate schooling and who've been taught by the best of teachers, and not poor scrubs who wear 300 Rs shirts because they have to pay off student loans which they took because they couldn't afford the 3 LPA fee of a law school.
As I said, your penny ante place, or your opinion doesn't really matter. Clearly your teachers have neglected to teach you the important things in life.
How would seeing that comment change anything? I still say you can't get good students to join your place and from what you have said here so far, you don't really deserve any either.
Those are the individuals who have never seen the world to understand what they are missing out
Those are the individuals who prefer to know where their next pay-check is coming from
Those are the individuals who lack the foresight to see where the market is moving
Those are the individuals who may have had family responsibilities which forced them to keep their heads down and simply work
Those are the individuals who have built each of their respective equity partners practice by (a) working horrible hours; (b) day after day indulging in mind numbing work; (c) sacrificing their social and personal life.
Before you take a dig at what someone or their family can pay for ones education - do realise that your family has wasted money attempting to educate you and you are wasting your time by trying to do anything
You don't need to listen to the ones who left recently to understand the problem. Speak to the ones who've seen multiple seasons and have seen it all again and again. They'll add more perspective.
ROFL! Quitters? Grow up buddy. It is ok to quit a job.
Those who quit on themselves and reconcile with living miserably are the real quitters. Not fighters!
Would you label Jeff Bezos a quitter? He quit Wall Street to start a fledgling business. Chetan Bhagat? He quit a "glorified" job too.
It is admirable if someone manages to successfully quit a law firm for more money, success, happiness, personal time, etc etc. I want to hear how they did it.
Most lawyers in law firms are stuck because they can't help it. If you're a law firm insider you know this already.
Quit my tier 1 job with nothing in hand, worked independently for awhile and kept interviewing on the side. Got multiple offers which didn’t feel like a good fit so passed them up. Finally found an in-house role where their vision and culture seemed ideal for me. I was hired at double the salary I was drawing at the Tier 1. (I have a foreign LLM and bar qualification and that was one of their pre requisites so it definitely helped). I am in a much better place in life now and have elitist problems like not feeling challenged enough. A problem I can happily live with after the trauma the tier 1 left me with.
Good to hear and Thanks.Finally someone shows that Tier1 isn't the be all and end all of legal industry.There can be better life after leaving the black hole of Tier1.
While I personally cannot be arsed with corp law, I've worked with colleagues, brilliant folk from all walks of life, who absolutely love and relish working on corporate law matters. They explain it as a thrill associated with handling all aspects of multi-million dollar deals, facilitating big business etc. Not for me, but I guess you get all sorts of people.
1. Horrible working hours 2. Absolutely mind numbing work 3. No social life 4. Considering the inflation rate not enough salary 5. Pandemic (people have started realising the value of life) These are some of the reasons why this might be happening.
Sirjee paybands across firms have been stagnant since 2015. While say product manager pay has kept up with inflation, associate pay hasn't. It's no longer as enticing as it was in 2015.
Interesting thread.. I am still part of the rut and have not been able to get out.. I think the major reason is pandemic as it has made people more self aware.. money is not everything.. for initial few years, it does give a kick but after that its a drag.. If someone can find a good job in Tier 2 and Tier 3 city, I think in long run it will be much better..
Another option which could be tried by new comers is to explore practicing in their native city.. The ground reality is extremely poor, if talented folks start practicing, it will be mega contribution and over a period of time, I am sure they will do pretty well financially as well..
1. Corporate lawyers quit when they realise value of life, dignity, independence. Only little money is needed to live comfortably with respect in India. Pandemic has opened eyes. Colleagues lost family members with whom they barely spent time because of this lifestyle.
2. Law firm system loses glitter fast. Smart ones quit when they realize it attracts with money but gives a poor life. With time you are left with average professionals desperate for money. It gets pathetic.
3. Problem is not filling positions from A, B, C college. It is impossible to fake quality when work is for sake of filling timesheets for money.
The ultimate source of happiness is within us. Not money, not power, not status. Some of my friends are billionaires, but they are very unhappy people. Power and money fail to bring inner peace. Outward attainment will not bring real inner joyfulness. We must look inside.
I cannot answer your questions but I can only tell you what has happened since I quit. I recently quit my T1 firm job and moved in house. Now:
1. I am more mentally stable and have stopped being a snapping machine. 2. Have free weekends and spend time with family. 3. Thankfully, the money is mostly the same. 4. Got rid of my horrible, super horrible boss and got a new senior who is caring and understanding. 5. I laugh a lot, started cracking jokes like I used to with my friends. My friends tell me that their lost friend is back. 6. I am yet to take out time for exercise/fitness session and that remains a priority. 7. Do I miss anything about my firm- no, absolutely not. I just feel bad I could not move in house earlier on.
First, JPow, believe it or not. Because USA cranked up the money printer, there was suddenly a lot of dry powder and risk appetite for PE/VCs as well as institutional money. So the investment and fundraising went through the roof. Firms knew fully well that this was happening, but have not cranked up their hiring to match the workload. Also, it could also be by design - if teams are billing more than the normal days, why hire more and increase costs? The attrition trend is noticeable not just in India, but also other countries and Magic Circle firms.
Second, during the lockdown was ironically when most people discovered freedom. Home cooked food on the plate can mean a lot more than money in the bank (ok maybe not lol). Afternoon naps took priority over all those deals. Let's be honest, lawyers can actually work remotely. We have been stuck in stone age, and continue to be.
> Let's be honest, lawyers can actually work remotely. We have been stuck in stone age, and continue to be.
Amen. There's absolutely no upside to WFO that I noticed from Nov to Dec 2021. What exactly is the benefit of lugging people into cubicles I fail to see.
Amen to this. I also feel that most clients have already embraced this WFH as a common thing at their workplaces. It doesn't seem like a big deal for them to have lawyers working remotely either.
First guy on LI who seems to understand power of the fed, and the effect of printing money on lowlife lawyers although i doubt anybody understood JPow reference
Because we have bills to pay and kids to feed. I want my parents to make that spiritual trip they have longed for. I come from a middle class household even though I might pretend that money doesn't matter it does. I have seen my mother eating only twice a day to provide for me. Now that I am capable enough I want to make sure she gets all the luxuries in life and not only her I deserve the same as well. That's why I am fine working late nights and absolutely ruining my physical and mental health. By doing this I will keep my family safe and also I make sure my kids don't have to do it and get enough resources to pursue whatever they want. Not all of us come from money and that's why we yearn for it so much.
This totally makes sense. In every family line, there has to be someone who has to break the cycle of poverty. For some, it has been done by their grandfathers or great grandfathers, for other families, it is yet to happen. For this, everything else becomes a secondary objective and wealth creation becomes the focal point. Everyone of us here prioritizing things other than wealth already has that cycle broken by someone else.
Thats the point, buddy. You dont need to give your parents luxury nor do you need it for yourself. NGO's pay enough to live and contribute to society in a meaningful way.
So any person who is not privileged must strive for luxury? Or is social work solely restricted to privileged people? What's your point, buddy? I see posts on legally india about lawfirms? Money? People want to do llm and move abroad and my blood boils.
Talk about serving your country. Talk about social work. Talk about making a difference. . Don't be a loser.
Leave it. Most of the people here on LI are losers. And reading the above comments makes it clear the the law firms randos are sadists who don't wish to do anything for the society. Even their 'so called salary' is still less than Govt jobs.
1. Realizing the value of life after losing loved ones during the pandemic 2. Money has a finite marginal utility. 3. I can't waste the golden years of my youth sitting in front of a computer for a 1L salary. It's just not worth it. 4. If you look at it, you don't need so much money when you are 24 cos most of it would be spent on rent in metros and also on unnecessary lifestyle expenditure cos they have to live upto an "image". 5. Some people would rather earn in the range of 60-70k back in their home towns, enjoy work life balance, save a lot of money on rent and don't have to put up with the pretentiousness of the hustle culture back in the metros. 6. The saved money can then be utilized for travelling during long weekends or holidays (which one doesn't get in law firms cos after getting more than 1 lakh salary, the partners assume they own us for 24hrs). One gets time to be around family and people that really matter. And they can go to the gym at 7pm without worrying about a deliverable or a call with a precious foreign client at 11pm.
7. So yes if you really see the maths, middle class A0s from tier II towns working in law firms are losing a lot more as compared to the salary they get. The opportunity cost is way more. Many are hyperfocussed on the numbers in the paycheck but that's a very myopic approach As amartya sen said quality of life is determined by freedom. Income definitely helps one to have certain degree of freedom, esp financial freedom. But in law firms, there are millions different ways in which we give up our freedom and we never bothered to actually quantify it.
In short, money cannot buy freedom after a certain point and we need freedom to live our best life and realize our true potential.
Disclaimer: this may not apply to those having their families in metro and those who are truely passionate about corp law and don't mind conflating their identity with being a corporate lawyer.
I'm guessing the lack of work from home options as a norm and not an exception. These people are wonderful assets for firms only if they maybe willing to allow them to work from wherever they were and not force them to another city in the middle of a pandemic or even otherwise.
Mental health is a huge factor too. I'm really thinking whether we gave wellness less priority while going up the ladder. Disconnected from life, family, entertainment and everything for so long has made my personality dry. This is very messed up and I'm rethinking my choices. And I'm just so glad that people are demanding for better working conditions or just quitting. That's massive self respect in play there by not letting yourself be walked over.
As someone who has recently quit, what are your thoughts? How can firms make work less hostile and more hospitable? How can people senior to you provide saner conditions? Unpaid bonuses? There's a lot...but where are we going wrong?
For A0 positions - another hidden talent is folks who have worked for 2 to 3 years at Tier 3 firms and Seniors Chambers. Easy to train and far less attrition rates.
These people will be more grateful and won't jump ships like thankless top NLU folks who think they are above everyone else.
I've made it a point to now hire people only from JGLS.
Better education and schooling, and less thankless in general.
What’s truly impressive is when a workplace can boast of having employees with the caliber to have real options that choose to remain/ join. That is a workplace with the best talent :)
I, for my team, visit JGLS, and hire A0s from there itself.
Its MY CHOICE to hire JGLS grads. Its the only campus that I visit.
Weren't you sharing opinions as a student on another thread? You've suddenly turned into a hiring partner?
I may or may not have a foreign LLM. (can't give away too much info, you never know which HR is lurking where 😉)
Nobody’s saying it’s not your choice. I’m saying your reasons for making that choice speak volumes about what your workplace is like and what it intends to be like :P
Also I'd rather have kids with immaculate schooling and who've been taught by the best of teachers, and not poor scrubs who wear 300 Rs shirts because they have to pay off student loans which they took because they couldn't afford the 3 LPA fee of a law school.
https://images.app.goo.gl/YJLd6iSDuh6jJFLdA
Gotta say, that kinda speaks volumes about why you spend every conceivable hour on this website :P
Those are the individuals who prefer to know where their next pay-check is coming from
Those are the individuals who lack the foresight to see where the market is moving
Those are the individuals who may have had family responsibilities which forced them to keep their heads down and simply work
Those are the individuals who have built each of their respective equity partners practice by (a) working horrible hours; (b) day after day indulging in mind numbing work; (c) sacrificing their social and personal life.
Before you take a dig at what someone or their family can pay for ones education - do realise that your family has wasted money attempting to educate you and you are wasting your time by trying to do anything
So we're glorifying quitters and demeaning fighters.
Brave new world.
It is ok to quit a job.
Those who quit on themselves and reconcile with living miserably are the real quitters. Not fighters!
Would you label Jeff Bezos a quitter? He quit Wall Street to start a fledgling business.
Chetan Bhagat? He quit a "glorified" job too.
It is admirable if someone manages to successfully quit a law firm for more money, success, happiness, personal time, etc etc. I want to hear how they did it.
Most lawyers in law firms are stuck because they can't help it. If you're a law firm insider you know this already.
All the best! Be patient guys. It’s all possible.
2. Absolutely mind numbing work
3. No social life
4. Considering the inflation rate not enough salary
5. Pandemic (people have started realising the value of life)
These are some of the reasons why this might be happening.
Another option which could be tried by new comers is to explore practicing in their native city.. The ground reality is extremely poor, if talented folks start practicing, it will be mega contribution and over a period of time, I am sure they will do pretty well financially as well..
1. Corporate lawyers quit when they realise value of life, dignity, independence. Only little money is needed to live comfortably with respect in India. Pandemic has opened eyes. Colleagues lost family members with whom they barely spent time because of this lifestyle.
2. Law firm system loses glitter fast. Smart ones quit when they realize it attracts with money but gives a poor life. With time you are left with average professionals desperate for money. It gets pathetic.
3. Problem is not filling positions from A, B, C college. It is impossible to fake quality when work is for sake of filling timesheets for money.
Not money, not power, not status.
Some of my friends are billionaires, but they are very unhappy people.
Power and money fail to bring inner peace.
Outward attainment will not bring real inner joyfulness.
We must look inside.
You can attribute these to me and call me a troll.
Or to the Dalai Lama
https://twitter.com/DalaiLama/status/1479385216561004548?s=20
Do something for the society. Period.
1. I am more mentally stable and have stopped being a snapping machine.
2. Have free weekends and spend time with family.
3. Thankfully, the money is mostly the same.
4. Got rid of my horrible, super horrible boss and got a new senior who is caring and understanding.
5. I laugh a lot, started cracking jokes like I used to with my friends. My friends tell me that their lost friend is back.
6. I am yet to take out time for exercise/fitness session and that remains a priority.
7. Do I miss anything about my firm- no, absolutely not. I just feel bad I could not move in house earlier on.
First, JPow, believe it or not. Because USA cranked up the money printer, there was suddenly a lot of dry powder and risk appetite for PE/VCs as well as institutional money. So the investment and fundraising went through the roof. Firms knew fully well that this was happening, but have not cranked up their hiring to match the workload. Also, it could also be by design - if teams are billing more than the normal days, why hire more and increase costs?
The attrition trend is noticeable not just in India, but also other countries and Magic Circle firms.
Second, during the lockdown was ironically when most people discovered freedom. Home cooked food on the plate can mean a lot more than money in the bank (ok maybe not lol). Afternoon naps took priority over all those deals. Let's be honest, lawyers can actually work remotely. We have been stuck in stone age, and continue to be.
Amen. There's absolutely no upside to WFO that I noticed from Nov to Dec 2021. What exactly is the benefit of lugging people into cubicles I fail to see.
although i doubt anybody understood JPow reference
(R: pffffft)
Do you think huge world outside law firms is working pro bono for NGOs
Plain stupid to think in extremes. Meaningful life free of poverty could be had on a salary of even 6 LPA (or a reasonable amount you define).
There're private jobs with better LIFE that pay between 6 LPA to whatever a firm pays you.
Government jobs are even better. Accommodation, pension, health scheme, allowances, leaves, connections, respect, job security...
What's your point, buddy?
I see posts on legally india about lawfirms? Money? People want to do llm and move abroad and my blood boils.
Talk about serving your country. Talk about social work. Talk about making a difference.
.
Don't be a loser.
2. Money has a finite marginal utility.
3. I can't waste the golden years of my youth sitting in front of a computer for a 1L salary. It's just not worth it.
4. If you look at it, you don't need so much money when you are 24 cos most of it would be spent on rent in metros and also on unnecessary lifestyle expenditure cos they have to live upto an "image".
5. Some people would rather earn in the range of 60-70k back in their home towns, enjoy work life balance, save a lot of money on rent and don't have to put up with the pretentiousness of the hustle culture back in the metros.
6. The saved money can then be utilized for travelling during long weekends or holidays (which one doesn't get in law firms cos after getting more than 1 lakh salary, the partners assume they own us for 24hrs). One gets time to be around family and people that really matter. And they can go to the gym at 7pm without worrying about a deliverable or a call with a precious foreign client at 11pm.
7. So yes if you really see the maths, middle class A0s from tier II towns working in law firms are losing a lot more as compared to the salary they get. The opportunity cost is way more. Many are hyperfocussed on the numbers in the paycheck but that's a very myopic approach
As amartya sen said quality of life is determined by freedom. Income definitely helps one to have certain degree of freedom, esp financial freedom. But in law firms, there are millions different ways in which we give up our freedom and we never bothered to actually quantify it.
In short, money cannot buy freedom after a certain point and we need freedom to live our best life and realize our true potential.
Disclaimer: this may not apply to those having their families in metro and those who are truely passionate about corp law and don't mind conflating their identity with being a corporate lawyer.