If you had actually bothered to read all the comments properly, then you would have realised that I have mentioned plenty of times that if CNLU students are also choosing the judiciary despite having other options, then they should be commended for that too. It is however known to most that CNLU does not really have a good placement scene, hence it is more likely for their graduates not to have those options readily available. That does not mean that nobody from CNLU gave up law firms or other well-paid jobs to join the judiciary. In addition, the original point of contention was why someone should praise this development at NUJS at all, when someone else did not do so for CNLU, which is as far away from any logic as it gets. I merely said why this should be encouraged. The good that judges can do for the society was never in dispute, so one fails to see why you are bringing that up. Further, at least two of the students mentioned here actually left T1 firm jobs to do this, which drives home my point further.
Very interesting discussion going on here: so you would carve out an entire separate category of judges based on perceived ideology from other options available during placement? Do you really not see a problem here, even beyond the fact that ideological reasons were not even on the table for the OP, but the career in itself. The career choice of choosing to go into judiciary is what you seem to be focused on, not judiciary as a career. What happens if these people do not join after sitting for the exam, and go into S/CAM? Your entire chain of logic crumbles.
I feel you are trying to over-sell this dude, by bringing in extraneous factors like first, other opportunities, and then ideology. Why should this matter at all? Who told you CNLU students are not already Associates when they give exams? It is not like the WB judiciary comes to NUJS on zero day to recruit judges, competing with firms, like your arguments seem to suggest.
1. Not really, you've made a ridiculous comparison there. Being a janitor has got nothing to do with getting legal training. If someone with legal education and well paid available options choose a legal career that is underpaid but supposedly help you to serve the public, then chances of you doing it for ideological reasons are indeed the strongest. If you don't have other options and are selecting that job, then you may be doing it for ideological reasons or because that was the only option available. One can't be sure of your motives in the second case. Therefore, while in both cases you may be serving the public, the first case merits greater commendation. If you can't follow that chain of logic, then you should probably go back to law school.
Okay, following up from your point 1 then: would you say the person from NLS/NALSAR/NUJS becoming a janitor is commendable because they are ideologically inclined to contribute to a Swacch Bharat even when they had T-1 jobs? The point you make is not even falsifiable. I am now convinced from your follow up that it is not only a straw man but also a fallacy.
For point 2, not strictly my point, so not interested as much in defending it.
But isn't the college popularly known as the Hazra College? Just curious, back in those days people would call it Hazra, not aware of the situation now tho.
Still not a shred of proof or actual reference visible in your comment, other than vague insinuations. You are the one claiming to have seen the 'rot in the system', so the onus is on you to establish it, not for others to take your claims as the gospel truth. Again, this is textbook trolling on your part.
Like I had previously stated, I shifted to another law school and also graduated out of the same several years back and hence I am no longer in touch with those folks. Now, coming to second part of your comment, it would be very naive of you to assume that it is an all good old simple process. If you dig deep enough, you will find the relevant details (there has been cases in the SC regarding the same). This is not to take away the credit from people who have cracked this exam through sheer dedication and hard-work; but if you do not recognise the rot in the entire system, then perhaps I don't have anything to say to you. The number of nepo folks are much greater in number at CU dept. of Law than in NLUs, moreover on an average the tier-1/2 NLU student is of much better quality as compared to CU.
Thanks for giving this advise. They were clearly stupid for choosing service in any form over power and prestige. I'll personally convey your honour's list of prestige to them and tell them they are in severe violation.
Why is our legal education system producing these clowns, despite all the subjects on advance social sciences?
I am clearly late to this party but here's a few things to consider, if the self declared SC judges passing judgements here permit: 1. No service is best and I'm sure they have thought their decision through. So, the statement that they're going to leave is very premature and naive. 2. Be it DJS, WBJS, XJS, some people prefer to remain in a certain state for their own personal reasons. Doesn't make the choice and service inferior in any manner. 3. For once, can we stop comparing colleges, services, perks and luxuries that come with it? Different things give meaning to different people. It's appalling when lawyers, who've supposedly had a 360 degree education talk like this.
Promotion is not everything, atleast not for everyone. They might just want to stick to it, in which case, no one would really know their names a couple of years down the line, but they'll be doing their work where it's most needed. Change will come when we put service before self and post shouldn't matter.
Wake up to reality. The one lacking logic here is you, and moreover taking a dig at not so good things in the system does not qualify me as a troll. But, whatever helps you sleep at night while being devoid of the harsh realities of the world.
Please name a single person who has got such a seat without having got the requisite marks in the exam. If you can't, don't make up unsubstantiated stories about non-existing batchmates.
A judicial service officer can retire at a HC judge level. That is higher than the Chief Secretary position that an IAS can retire at.
While an argument of higher prestige can certainly be made for the IAS given its old age heritage and country-wide recognition, I don't see any of the other civil services higher than the judicial services. Even if you're a junior judge, you can call for a personal appearance of an IPS officer anytime. Don't even want to discuss IRS (whose only perk is the cut of black money), IIS, BSF etc.
If indeed there is an IJS, with a good possibility of a supreme court elevation, it would any day trump the IAS. A Supreme Court judge, by protocol, is close to the President/Prime Minister tier, and even by prestige of common perception ranks at par with union cabinet ministers. Bureaucrats rank way lower on that scale.
1. No, it is not a straw man argument. Getting into a job with low pay and dubious career progression when you don't have other jobs available can be because you don't have other jobs available. If you have other options and are still choosing this, then it has to be because you really want to do this for ideological reasons. 2. What's hypocritical standard of LI exactly? Is it a monolith having a separate existence other than the people who write here? The OP has made a point and someone else comments about hypocrisy here. How are the two even related? If the commentator had a problem with the upvotes received by the post, then they should have made that clear. Once again, the people commenting here including the OP need not have commented before in any other post including the ones referred to by the commenter, so it's all a huge ass assumption on the latter's part that needs to be called out for what it is.
You are a troll because of your way of generalization without logic and calling people names under the garb of anonymity. You will remain thus regardless of whichever state you are from.
Feel free to think of me as a troll. But I and many others have witnessed the rot in the entire legal system of West Bengal. Kindly do note that I had already stated that there are brilliant and motivated students at CU too; but the truth is what it is. I do not have any personal vendetta against CU as such, but I do have a problem with the undeserving Nepo brats who take massive advantage of the rampant corruption in the system and unfortunately, many people fall into this category.
1. Either going to the judiciary is commendable or it is not - the other opportunities do not matter. If someone became a janitor from NALSAR after getting placed for 5 T-1 firms, would becoming a janitor become a commendable job? The entire narrative of other law firms opportunities is a constructed straw-man, no much how much you convince yourself. Which is why neither comment #2 nor my comment mentions it even once, and both yours and 2.1 does.
2. I did not write comment #2, so I am in no way obligated to provide a defence, but I am unable to say nothing in this circumstance. Nowhere in comment #2, did the author mention that the OP is hypocritical. They mentioned the hypocritical standard of LI as holding act X praiseworthy when done by students from Y, and the same act X being condemned when done by students from Z. If you are reading a personal attack in comment #2, I am sorry but not everything is about you - do not lose sight of structural issues being blinded by personal outrage.
1. IFS/IAS 2. IPS 3. IRS 4. Other UPSC Group A service (IIS, BSF etc) 5. DJS 6. UPSC Group B services (IIS, BSF etc) 7. Other state judicial services 8. State civil services cadre
In my view, NLU grads should aspire for services 1 to 3, just like IIT and Stephen's grads. Those who get services 3 to should appear for the UPSC again, because it means they have the potential to crack it. If they would prefer to be a judge, then until an IJS is created they should work as a state judge for 5 years, then start their own litigation practice and work for 15 years (or 5 years under an A-list counsel and 10 years of solo practice), then try for a HC judgeship. To become a HC judge faster, it is a good idea to represent politicians in cases. In fact, Justice Kaushik Chanda of the Cal HC was head of Bengal BJP legal cell.
Are you saying that because some people laughed in those threads, others cannot praise it in this one? Where is the logic in that? Still not figuring out your hypocrisy tangent. Without knowing the OP's identity, how are you even sure about them having 'laughed at CNLU in other threads earlier'? And if they didn't, then where is the hypocrisy coming from? Are you even aware of what it means? In addition, as someone has mentioned above, having alternative choices and still opting for judiciary is always going to be commended more than having little other choice available and hence opting for it. Are you claiming that CNLU and NLUJAA students get a huge number of opportunities to join law firms, in-house roles, and top chambers?
I think you completely missed the point. That "It is indeed good to see NLU students coming over to the judiciary these days" (directly quoted from the post) only after NUJS students seemed to be interested in judiciary is hypocritical at best and malicious at its worst to spin out a narrative justifying the greatness of the top 3 at one's convenience.
The fact that students were going for the judiciary was being laughed at in almost all threads where NLUs like CNLU and NLUJAA were mentioned. The greatness of the top NLUs (if there is any such thing) seems to be justified by moulding the definition as and when required, which almost always ensures that the newer NLUs are portrayed as dogshit and the older ones are the next best thing to sliced bread.
Pipe down, mate. Firstly, the name of the college is Department of Law, University of Calcutta and not Hazra College. Secondly, every year (but for this) we have usually 8-10+ people qualifying for WBJS, including most of the toppers, so I don't get why the sudden hatred and notion that people are arrogant. You all all sorts of people in all college, never a good idea to generalise.
As someone who's from a t1 and has been contemplating judiciary for quite some time but was hesitant due to the limited and slow growth, this comment was quite helpful and insightful. Thank you.
They learn law at the university. The entrance exam tests them for their legal knowledge. Do you want a closer nexus? As for the outrage, what's stopping you from showing your own here, assuming what you wrote doesn't amount to the same already?
The Indian judiciary, like most other institutions of the state, is stuck in a bygone era and barely rewards talent. The higher judiciary is a cabal of the by birth privileged; and the lower judiciary is simply not rewarding enough for someone ambitious, smart and having other options. Not to mention you simply can't base yourself in a tier 2/ 3 Indian city from a practical standpoint. Lack of decent healthcare, education, opportunities in the services sector, etc. would simply make it unfeasible for someone with family. Hence there needs to be structural changes, which is unlikely since nobody in a power of privilege randomly gives it up.
Well that's what most NLU judicial service folks aim for, maybe it's the right choice given their inclination to achieve better things, but still it does reflect some change from the law firm route right out of law school. Thankfully, they are way better than the trashy CU people (barring a few good, motivated and non Nepo kids) who only want the service as a ticket to a lazy sarkari life. Before getting into nujs, I spent a year at Hazra, some people there would openly boast about how their uncle is a senior counsel and how he would be able to get a Wbjs seat for them. Just horrendous State of affairs.
When any student from a university other than the supposedly “top 3” posts something similar, then just witness the outrage. What has university to do in any of this huh?
Congrats to them, but I am not sure if they (or most other talented law grads) see the judicial services as a lifelong career. I think they look to join the judicial service to improve their CV, park themselves in a secure job for a few years, and then move on to bigger things. The reason is that the judicial services are very unrewarding. Very few get promoted as a HC judge and that too very late in life, at age 60 or so. This is in contrast with the IAS or IFS, where one can get good posts at a much earlier age and the perks are also better. If we want our top NLU talent to join the judicial services then we need a National Judicial Service cadre within the UPSC, where a promotion as HC judge is assured by age 45-50 and 30% of the cadre get elevated to SC.
I myself wish they leave the WBJS and litigation practice and become HC judges in future, by age 45-50.
Bro they may well join a law firm after a few years here. NLU ppl are too smart to be stuck in dead-end judicial service jobs. Even among non-NLU people Jamia alum Bharat Chugh joined L&L as lit counsel after 3 years in DJS (he was rank 1).
Dude, you seem to be having a really bad day. Sorry for that. But reading the post, the OP never made it about NUJS' achievement, but simply commented that NLU students joining the judiciary is a good sign, which it is. As for some other posts dissing CNLU, you do realise that all kinds of people can post here and the readership isn't a homogenous whole, right? Further, logically speaking, when you have other options available in the form of lucrative firm jobs, and students still opt for the judiciary, then that clearly shows that the choice is shifting. Both ranks 1 and 2 here quit top law firms to join the judiciary now for instance. I don't know personally whether that's the same deal with CNLU students too, but if it is, then that's surely a good sign too. Don't let any anon troll here convince you otherwise.
But I just wanted to flag a separate issue. 11 out of 25 selected names are categorised as SC or OBC. Of these 11 names, 5 are from the Muslim community. It is legally controversial to classify the Muslim community as OBC/SC. In Andhra such an order was struck down by the High Court.
I don't want to cause a political storm here, but I am just assessing things objectively from a legal perspective. What if the SC upholds the Andhra HC judgement? Will that impact the WBJS?
Almost all NLU grads who join the judicial services intend to quit after 5-6 years, using it merely as a stepping stone. They do one of the following:
1. join the lit department of a firm 2. start their own practice 3. go in-house 4. study for the UPSC and clear it with a good rank 5. do an LLM abroad (with an SoP saying how they are working at the grassroots) and stay back
Until and unless the Indian government creates an Indian Judicial Service with the same stature and prestige as the UPSC, and guaranteed promotion to the HC and SC, this will keep happening. The DJS is the best service to work in and have on your CV to achieve the objective listed above. Other services are nowhere as well regarded, but can still serve as a stepping stone to achieve objectives 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Nevertheless, during the short period that they are state judges, NLU grads can bring refreshing changes to the system. We saw this recently when an NLUD alum gave a bold ruling in the Mathura mosque dispute. Normally, state judges are complete servants of the state government, but NLU grads are less inclined to do that because they do not intend to be in the state judicial service forever.
These guys are much better than those arrogant Hazra folks, a law school which relies only upon heritage and has nothing more to offer except arrogant Nepo brats. It is good to see Noojies choosing Wbjs as we desperately need talent at the subordinate courts. Thankfully they did not opt for the traditional law firm route, wish them all the best for the future.
Oh, I thought people made fun of students going into judiciary? CNLU was ripped a new one when a lot of their students became judges, and somehow this is a huge achievement for NUJS when their students do it.
The WBJS 2021 results have got as many as 3 NUJS students in this year, ranks 1, 2 and 6. It is indeed good to see NLU students coming over to the judiciary these days other than the usual law firm career choice. Bodes well for the future I guess.
I feel you are trying to over-sell this dude, by bringing in extraneous factors like first, other opportunities, and then ideology. Why should this matter at all? Who told you CNLU students are not already Associates when they give exams? It is not like the WB judiciary comes to NUJS on zero day to recruit judges, competing with firms, like your arguments seem to suggest.
For point 2, not strictly my point, so not interested as much in defending it.
This is not to take away the credit from people who have cracked this exam through sheer dedication and hard-work; but if you do not recognise the rot in the entire system, then perhaps I don't have anything to say to you. The number of nepo folks are much greater in number at CU dept. of Law than in NLUs, moreover on an average the tier-1/2 NLU student is of much better quality as compared to CU.
Why is our legal education system producing these clowns, despite all the subjects on advance social sciences?
1. No service is best and I'm sure they have thought their decision through. So, the statement that they're going to leave is very premature and naive.
2. Be it DJS, WBJS, XJS, some people prefer to remain in a certain state for their own personal reasons. Doesn't make the choice and service inferior in any manner.
3. For once, can we stop comparing colleges, services, perks and luxuries that come with it? Different things give meaning to different people. It's appalling when lawyers, who've supposedly had a 360 degree education talk like this.
Can you please tell who is that Ex - Gujarat Judicial Services Judge who migrated to New Zealand?
Just to see his/her career path.
While an argument of higher prestige can certainly be made for the IAS given its old age heritage and country-wide recognition, I don't see any of the other civil services higher than the judicial services. Even if you're a junior judge, you can call for a personal appearance of an IPS officer anytime. Don't even want to discuss IRS (whose only perk is the cut of black money), IIS, BSF etc.
If indeed there is an IJS, with a good possibility of a supreme court elevation, it would any day trump the IAS. A Supreme Court judge, by protocol, is close to the President/Prime Minister tier, and even by prestige of common perception ranks at par with union cabinet ministers. Bureaucrats rank way lower on that scale.
2. What's hypocritical standard of LI exactly? Is it a monolith having a separate existence other than the people who write here? The OP has made a point and someone else comments about hypocrisy here. How are the two even related? If the commentator had a problem with the upvotes received by the post, then they should have made that clear. Once again, the people commenting here including the OP need not have commented before in any other post including the ones referred to by the commenter, so it's all a huge ass assumption on the latter's part that needs to be called out for what it is.
Kindly do note that I had already stated that there are brilliant and motivated students at CU too; but the truth is what it is. I do not have any personal vendetta against CU as such, but I do have a problem with the undeserving Nepo brats who take massive advantage of the rampant corruption in the system and unfortunately, many people fall into this category.
1. Either going to the judiciary is commendable or it is not - the other opportunities do not matter. If someone became a janitor from NALSAR after getting placed for 5 T-1 firms, would becoming a janitor become a commendable job? The entire narrative of other law firms opportunities is a constructed straw-man, no much how much you convince yourself. Which is why neither comment #2 nor my comment mentions it even once, and both yours and 2.1 does.
2. I did not write comment #2, so I am in no way obligated to provide a defence, but I am unable to say nothing in this circumstance. Nowhere in comment #2, did the author mention that the OP is hypocritical. They mentioned the hypocritical standard of LI as holding act X praiseworthy when done by students from Y, and the same act X being condemned when done by students from Z. If you are reading a personal attack in comment #2, I am sorry but not everything is about you - do not lose sight of structural issues being blinded by personal outrage.
1. IFS/IAS
2. IPS
3. IRS
4. Other UPSC Group A service (IIS, BSF etc)
5. DJS
6. UPSC Group B services (IIS, BSF etc)
7. Other state judicial services
8. State civil services cadre
In my view, NLU grads should aspire for services 1 to 3, just like IIT and Stephen's grads. Those who get services 3 to should appear for the UPSC again, because it means they have the potential to crack it. If they would prefer to be a judge, then until an IJS is created they should work as a state judge for 5 years, then start their own litigation practice and work for 15 years (or 5 years under an A-list counsel and 10 years of solo practice), then try for a HC judgeship. To become a HC judge faster, it is a good idea to represent politicians in cases. In fact, Justice Kaushik Chanda of the Cal HC was head of Bengal BJP legal cell.
The fact that students were going for the judiciary was being laughed at in almost all threads where NLUs like CNLU and NLUJAA were mentioned. The greatness of the top NLUs (if there is any such thing) seems to be justified by moulding the definition as and when required, which almost always ensures that the newer NLUs are portrayed as dogshit and the older ones are the next best thing to sliced bread.
Firstly, the name of the college is Department of Law, University of Calcutta and not Hazra College.
Secondly, every year (but for this) we have usually 8-10+ people qualifying for WBJS, including most of the toppers, so I don't get why the sudden hatred and notion that people are arrogant.
You all all sorts of people in all college, never a good idea to generalise.
I myself wish they leave the WBJS and litigation practice and become HC judges in future, by age 45-50.
https://www.legallyindia.com/law-firms/luthra-hires-young-ex-judge-in-delhi-lit-as-counsel-20161220-8173
There is also an ex-Gujarat judicial service judge who migrated to New Zealand: did an LLM there and is now working there.
https://wbpsc.gov.in/Download?param1=20211225092013_Select_List_WBJSE2021.pdf¶m2=advertisement
But I just wanted to flag a separate issue. 11 out of 25 selected names are categorised as SC or OBC. Of these 11 names, 5 are from the Muslim community. It is legally controversial to classify the Muslim community as OBC/SC. In Andhra such an order was struck down by the High Court.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/andhra-to-challenge-high-court-order-on-muslim-reservation/story-wNE6DiW2vmKlP4VXXla1YL.html
In Bengal, the TMC government announced 10 percent reservation for Muslims after the Andhra judgement, which caused controversy:
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/i4teufZpxbnb0GiBfCGaqN/West-Bengal-fixes-10-quota-for-Muslims-in-govt-jobs.html
https://scroll.in/article/990119/will-the-communalisation-of-obc-reservations-help-the-bjp-in-bengal
I don't want to cause a political storm here, but I am just assessing things objectively from a legal perspective. What if the SC upholds the Andhra HC judgement? Will that impact the WBJS?
1. join the lit department of a firm
2. start their own practice
3. go in-house
4. study for the UPSC and clear it with a good rank
5. do an LLM abroad (with an SoP saying how they are working at the grassroots) and stay back
Until and unless the Indian government creates an Indian Judicial Service with the same stature and prestige as the UPSC, and guaranteed promotion to the HC and SC, this will keep happening. The DJS is the best service to work in and have on your CV to achieve the objective listed above. Other services are nowhere as well regarded, but can still serve as a stepping stone to achieve objectives 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Nevertheless, during the short period that they are state judges, NLU grads can bring refreshing changes to the system. We saw this recently when an NLUD alum gave a bold ruling in the Mathura mosque dispute. Normally, state judges are complete servants of the state government, but NLU grads are less inclined to do that because they do not intend to be in the state judicial service forever.
It is good to see Noojies choosing Wbjs as we desperately need talent at the subordinate courts. Thankfully they did not opt for the traditional law firm route, wish them all the best for the future.
My god, the double standards on LI are obscene.