Hi! I have graduated from a tier 1 law school, some years back and have worked in t1 firms and eventually shifted to litigation. I have always wanted to be involved in teaching and I was wondering what are the chances of recruitment in either a national law school/good pvt. aw school for someone with my background? I plan on making the shift after completing my llm from either UK or Australia. I have a few decent publications, but not a lot. Requesting for genuine answers!

Also, any suggestions as to how to go about it? does one apply directly to places like Jindal? National law schools seem to have recruitment drives every 1-2 years. Would really appreciate the help. Thanks!

Jindal you can directly apply to after getting a foreign LL.M. With your background, it is almost a guaranteed hire. For NLUs, permanent positions will depend on vacancies, recruitment drives, reservation norms etc. In addition, permanent positions at NLUs will require you to become UGC-compliant, which means clearing your NET by 2023 or getting a PhD afterward (as required by the current regulations). However, most of the good NLUs (NLSIU, NALSAR, NUJS, NLUD for sure that I know of) have people teaching there on a contractual basis even if they don't have NET/PhD etc. Payment made to these people differ across institutions (but usually will not equal permanent positions of course). Recruitment for these contractual positions can and does take place throughout the year, and is often at administrative discretion. In addition, most NLUs have a credit course system under which you can offer full elective courses (or shorter ones) across the year. You can write to the respective VCs or designated credit course cell IDs for this. This is possible even at this stage without an LLM. An LLB with relevant industry experience is usually enough.

Hi! OP here. Many thanks for such a detailed and informative reply. I most definitely plan on clearing NET after the LLM. I just had one follow up question - what do you mean by clearing NET by 2023? why 2023? Could you please clarify. It is heartening to know that the colleges mentioned by you recruit albeit contractually throughout the year. Once again thank you so much for the genuine and helpful answer. Really appreciate it!

UGC had earlier notified that from 2021 onward, you would require a PhD degree to join a university even as an entry level Assistant Professor. They have now temporarily relaxed this and said that if you are joining by 2023, then LLM + NET will be enough. After that, PhD will become mandatory. This is only for a university though, you can still join colleges with LLM + NET even after 2023. This is the current position, which may of course change again.

Unless you have already begun your LL.M. to graduate in 2022, from 2023 you must have a PhD to be appointed as an assistant professor in the universities. You can apply to colleges though still with an LL.M. (like GLC and CLC-DU).

Perhaps the best way to go about it is take a part-time professorship at the nearest central university while continuing litigation. I am not sure if pursuing a PhD for at least 4 years would be worth it for you at this point unless you are really sure academia is what you want to do for the rest of your life.

Hi! OP here. Thanks for the reply. Currently part-time jobs are not possible as I already work incredibly long and demanding hours. I definitely plan on pursuing doctoral studies so PhD is very much in the plan, but I had thought of teaching for a while/teaching while pursuing a PhD as the way forward. Seems like I would have to rethink that? The goal is to teach at my alma mater.

Thank you for the further info. That seems plausible by two ways (both after your LL.M.):

(1) The best way is to try for a PhD at any prominent European Law School (depending on your subject specialisation but you can hardly go wrong with anything in The Netherlands, France or Germany) because they generally involve some teaching component as well. PhDs are fully paid positions like Assistant Professors so you will have zero worries on that front.

(2) Join JGLS after your LL.M. and take up their PhD positions on offer: they offer a significant teaching component as well, even more than (1) as far as I know.

Long story short: Most PhD positions outside Commonwealth countries (and JGLS) come with teaching components, consider applying for them.

As someone who currently teaches at Jindal, please don't undertake an exorbitantly priced LLM with Jindal being your sole backup.
Of late, just LLM is not sufficient to get in anymore. They ask you to take a demo lecture, grill you in your area of expertise and then make an offer.
I am not saying that is impossible to get in but I have seen people with Masters from Cambridge being rejected and those with a degree from some unheard European law school get in. All I am saying is that just a foreign LLM is no more a sure safe guarantee to get in anymore.
Please tread accordingly before you decide to take a crippling loan to further your studies.

Hi! OP here. Thank you so much for laying it down so clearly. I don't expect the shift to be cakewalk. I am actually glad to hear that it isn't as easy as it's made out to be. I have taught classes before, so a demo class is something I can definitely manage (it is a different thing, if the authorities deem it good enough). LLM is something I will definitely do, and that's the reason I am looking at UK and Melbourne. So let's see.

However, could you kindly tell me if industry experience (commercial litigation) would be valued as such? Because with the LLM I anyway plan to shift careers and also have a research proposal in mind (subject to fine-tuning) for doctoral studies. So I don't really want to come across as someone who's worked in the field for a bit and is now interested in teaching. Generally what is the perception of someone with industry experience at jindal?

Once again , many thanks sir. Your comment was really helpful.

They look favorably at folks with work experience. In fact your contract allows you to do work as a consultant beyond Jindal and they encourage it too. They want you to stay active in industry and keep yourself updated so that you can incorporate your learnings in the classroom as well as possibly help with industry collaborations by bring in folks for lectures, invite recruiters on campus etc.

They have plenty of corp guys including partners from T1 now teaching full time here. Interestingly, your lit experience will be looked at more favorably as they are perpetually running short on faculty that could teach procedural laws well. If you have a solid work ex on civil side litigation, unless the situation changes drastically by the time you join, you are gold.

@Anonymous123 - Entry level compensation is at 15lpa. After that there is ample room for growth but a lot depends on you just like anywhere else. I know someone who joined very recently and is now an Asst Prof and there have been folks who are in for 3-4 years and still stuck at Lecturer.

OP Here. Once again, thank you so much for answering the query. It is difficult to source this information from outside. So all this is really very helpful. I also plan on writing to some of my alum who have been teaching in Jindal for a while (not sure how helpful it would be, but worth staying in touch I guess). Thankfully, my present work involves civil and commercial litigation so hoping that comes to better use while shifting. From your comments it seems, that there is significant scope to thrive there subject to one performing well, and being interested in teaching and writing. I will take that in my stride, and plan my next couple of steps accordingly. Really grateful for the information, thank you.

Hello Anonymous friend from JGU Faculty,

Are you aware of which Senior Faculty Members are usually the interviewees for Faculty Recruitment? Is it the Vice Chancellor and the Senior Deans such as Professor Sreejith/Gulati? Or is it the Middle/Junior Deans, e.g. Professors Arjya, Karan Latayan, Prateek B., Tanvee, Malvika, and Rohini Sen?

The particular (and kind of awkward) reason I have sought this answer is to raise and avoid conflict with a particular faculty member (not mentioned here) during my interview for the JGU Teaching Job (stemming from my university days in a committee headed by that faculty member- I faced verbal & mental harassment from them and am on bad terms with them). Raising conflict itself might affect my recruitment chances, due to which knowing whether specific junior faculties are likely involved (who would obviously be biased against me, but unlikely to backout from my interview) may help me make a better (read: normal) attempt at getting the job. :)
[PS R/Kian, please approve this comment.]

1. take a credit course at your old uni to try out teaching and see if you like it

2. if you do like teaching then do your llm from oxbridge (with scho costs 20-25 lakhs total)

3. when you are doing your llm email the VCs at the NLUs where you may be interested in joining, and RK at JGLS.

4. work in any of the NLUs on a contract basis or JGLS on probation as asst prof for one year, in this year develop a research proposal for phd and apply for phd and scho next year in the UK

5. do your phd in the UK with scho (impossible without it)

6. after you have done your phd you can return to India as a permanent faculty or stay in the UK or apply for jobs in academia in any of the common law countries

the entire process of shifting from your current situation to a permanent academic position will take 5 years.

Hi! OP here. That is something I have thought about. I have taught previously so I am quite certain I enjoy it, and wish to do it long term.

Oxbridge is out of the question, I was not in the top 10 ranks, so won't get it. Plus I am not sure if I want to pursue black letter law courses (as is usually taught at Oxbridge) only. Not to say Oxbridge isn't great, but at this point it may not suit me since I wish to pursue more interdisciplinary courses.

On the PhD, is it necessary doing it from abroad? What about Indian unis like JNU, NLS?

Really appreciate the reply, thank you so much.

for oxbridge they would want at least 60% for applicants with work experience, for freshers the bar is a bit higher (around 65%), so if you do apply after few years of good experience you should make the cut; have a chat with people from your home uni who have done their llm from oxbridge and have moved to academia in India or abroad, they give you more pointers

I am not sure what you mean by interdisciplinary courses, all LLM modules in the UK would be research oriented and based on engaging in critical analysis, may I ask which unis you are interested in? if they are from the UK I can give you a pretty good idea about their courses

The quality of phds on average is much better in the UK than in India (yes, even from NLS), please have a look at the submissions on ethos (for uk) and sodhganga (for India), you can compare phd quality from 2 and 3 tier uk unis with that from jnu and nls

Usually uk unis would give a scholarship stipend for phd students, this may range from £10k to £20k pa apart from tuition waiver. If you do get this type of scholarship you can save the equivalent of indian uni salary; on the other hand if you do pursue your phd part time along with teaching from any of the nlus you would get the expereince required for promotion.

of course, it is not necessary to do phd from outside india, but if you do you would learn in an environment which is substantially diff from india then uk is a better choice

OP here. Once again thank you for providing the information! Of course a PhD from the UK and other European countries is the goal, but I just assumed it would be really difficult to get it (funding) which is why I was considering Indian unis for a PhD at least. But what you suggested does make sense, so I will keep that in mind.

So for UK Oxbridge is obviously my top choice, but assuming I do not get it (the people I know from college who have gotten into oxbridge have either been Rhodes scholars or within the top 5 ranks, so I assumed that's gone for sure) - I was considering University of Edinburgh, LSE, SOAS and UCL. Now UCL I am not too keen on, as I wish to study courses centering around social justice/rights. So these unis made more sense, course wise. Would love to know your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance, super grateful for the help!!

Best option for you maybe to get an LLM, clear NET, join a permanent position, spend 3 years teaching, then get a study leave for a foreign PhD. With your industry and academic experience, it will be a cinch to get a funded one by then. You may then return and continue in your permanent position. That way you will not lose academic seniority either.

yes, this is also a good option, Prabhash Ranjan took this route.

@OP for social justice themed course like gender/poverty/human rights/crime LSE and SOAS have best course selection, oxbridge has a few but not as many variety, do speak with the admissions tutor at any of these unis and have a chat if you can, they are more than happy to have a chat with prospective students; do have a look at the course list and ask them if the course is running in the year when you are going to take admission. Many times you will see that the uni will list a course but then the teacher leaves in June and the course is not run in October.

Prabhash was just very lucky, being in the right place at the right moment. No NLU will give anyone a study leave of more than a year or two even if unpaid. It takes a lot of pull with the higher authorities to get that kind of favour and even then others resent it. A foreign PhD for a person already with a position in an Indian law school usually means resigning and leaving, in which case joining itself was of no use. You can check the list of foreign-returned faculty at NLUs, most are foreign LLM + Indian PhD or joined after the foreign PhD.

Actually, Prabhash did not get his seniority preserved because he had left before completing the necessary period for getting full study leave after confirmation of probation. However, UGC has got rules about that now. You are entitled to study leave for upto 3 years after having worked for 4 years, something like that.

OP here. hmm, yes that is what. In terms of sheer courses, SOAS seems to have an edge. I had a follow up question as I am not too aware of this - do the rankings of these Unis matter? LSE (being a much larger Uni) is ranked higher than SOAS (being a specialized Uni) but in terms of future options- PhD Proposals, return to India etc, would this play a role? I guess my question sounds a bit naïve, but would really appreciate an answer. thank you!

in the uk it will not matter, although LSE is traditionally considered to be the 3rd best choice in the UK, SOAS as you mentioned in specialised in social justice type modules, and if you have a similar interest then UK unis will appreciate that you have chosen SOAS for its expertise. As long as you can get 65%+ (preferably 70%+) in the LLM you should not have any problem to overcome the initial phd application barrier in the UK, it does not matter which uni you go to between soas and lse as long as your phd proposal matches your llm specialisation and you can weave in a story in your phd sop.

I do not know much about the recent Indian scenario, but knowledgeable VCs will also feel that you have put SOAS before lse because you wanted to pursue courses in a particular direction. I do not think this will be an issue to get a job in India. But, it may be helpful to have a chat with your home uni vc.

if you ask me personally, if the module choice is very similar, from returning to India perspective, I would prefer LSE over SOAS because of better brand recognition

Hi! OP here, that makes a lot of sense and was something I was myself considering. by the time I pursue my LLM I would have had 3+ years of work ex, so I was hoping to use that plus the LLM (and NET) to land a position even if its of a guest lecturer at my alma mater. I will obviously apply for other unis including Jindal, but this roadmap as suggested by you seems to be doable and is quite helpful. Thank you :)

Negotiate for something that says assistant professor, even if contractual. If you get a lecturer title then public universities will get you to do all the work like AP, but you won't be given the benefit of this experience later during promotions etc. For UGC purposes, only AP onward counts.

Hi, OP here I am more inclined to teaching at a national law University or amongst the private universities I would consider Jindal the best (simply because of the other professors who teach there). As this has been a goal for sometime and I actually have plans after being an academic, I am not sure if I can pursue that meaningfully at UPES? But I may be uninformed and biased so I'll leave scope for that, and do some research. Does upes pay decently?

Hey Kid, Some advice from the experience of an old timer.

Academia in India is an odd animal. On one hand there is massive scope to shine because the quality of faculty and scholars is a complete mess. On the other hand it is this mess that can severely limit the ability to shine.

To be candid, 90% of the so called academics and professors in India have no idea of what it means to be a scholar. They churn out crap in the form of modules, notes, classes and exams, spending many hours in classroom "teaching". To be fair to them its not their fault, most if not all were at the bottom of their LLB class and had no option except to get into academia. They wrote some shit long project as a PHD thesis, usually plagiarized substantial parts of it and somehow managed to clear the job interviews to get a rocksolid job from where they can never be fired.

The result of all this is that most NLUs are pathetic, filled with these insecure bottom feeders who resent anyone with brains. Jindal is really the only place for an academic but even that is far from ideal.

If you're smart stay back in the land where you do your LLM. Transition to a PHD and keep writing good stuff, publish and hope for a postdoc appointment there.

There's simply no scope in India. I wish I could help further.

"Jindal is really the only place for an academic" - Yet, 99% of the legal scholarship that India is known for all over the world has come from public universities including NLUs. Not to mention that most of the academics currently teaching at or heading Jindal are products of those very same public universities and have been taught by those very teachers whom you blithely dismiss as useless, insecure etc. Nor do you have the slightest idea about the academic credentials of even 20% of the faculty at the public universities. Your prejudiced and unsubstantiated generalisations make you a part of the very problem that you are supposedly ranting against. You are also conflating between legal scholars and law teachers. NLUs are primarily catering to undergraduate law teaching and training, so classroom teaching is certainly an essential part of it. It is true that there are institutional issues that prevent even good people from sparing sufficient time towards legal research, and the NLUs have not yet focused on creating a corps of dedicated legal researchers who will be doing minimal or no classroom teaching (NLSIU has just started in that direction). However, classroom teaching, done properly, can also generate tremendous job satisfaction. Only people who actually put effort in that will understand and appreciate it. The purpose of a law faculty is not simply to churn out publications every month. At the same time, legal research and industry and inter-disciplinary collaboration are definitely important things too, without those one cannot ensure to provide relevant guidance to the students. However, it is absolutely untrue that how NLUs do not have people doing both. NLSIU, NALSAR, NLUD, and even NUJS have such people, though their proportion varies institutionally. JGLS is certainly not the only place for an academic, although I have got nothing against the people working there. Frankly, they have got several institutional policies that are worth emulating, and several others that aren't thus. There are plenty of bad apples and mediocre people too in all public and private institutions including NLUs and JGLS, but your disdain and cynicism make you unfit for academics at all if you are in it, and ignorant at best if you are not. You seem to belong to the group that believes spending time in classroom is time wasted for an academic.

Hi! OP here. I think the earlier comment was generally about the falling standards of professors at NLUs. But I do agree with you, that some professors (including ones which I was lucky to be taught by) took great efforts for class, despite not uhm..maybe being very savvy? in the sense that academics are unfairly expected to be - publications, conferences etc etc. It is of course a systematic failure too, most of the really good teachers had a lot of admin work which NLU admin invariably do not do. But your comment does add a lot of value, it is unfair to dismiss the importance of classroom teaching/impact/inspiration. Thanks for bringing this out so well.

At the cost of repetition I emphasize that public sector universities whether conventional or NLUs are currently good places for attend as students but not a good place to attend as an employee (and particularly as an academic, especially when the alternative is going to a CAM/SAM). They have a littany of woes starting from shoddy administration, low pay, bureaucratic career progression that stresses seniority as much as merit (and even assesses merit poorly). If these are not bad enough their mission statement itself is faulty with an extreme emphasis on classroom teaching. Finally the quality of the faculty pool itself is poor (the vast bunch are faculty due to the TINA factor - There Is No Alternative). Joining such a place after a top tier LLB and an Oxbridge LLM would make you stand out amongst the sea of mediocrity and get targeted as a result. That's assuming you can even get a job there considering how poor and sporadic the hiring process is (NLSIU did a round of recruitment after almost a decade, and there are still court cases pending).

Jindal is a lot better as a workplace for most of these reasons. It has a better faculty pool whom you can relate to (at the cost of sounding elitist). It attracts great faculty on short term assignment who can help you with future plans, conferences, collaboration. It pays well and recognizes the importance of getting published in reputed journals with lots of incentives. institutional support if you qualify for a reputed foreign conference is also excellent. Being a private sector employer, JGLS is not bound to follow the antiquated career rules that govern the NLUs and has plenty of flexibility in hiring and promotion.

The best bet is still to stay at your LLM school as a doctoral candidate or post-doc. Entering Indian academia is simply not a worthwhile career option today.

NB - The poor analogy of 99% of current academics being taught by NLUS professors is like the oft-repeated saying that 99% of SC/HC judges and senior counsel are from conventional universities. Enough said.

Not disagreeing with Jindal advantages, but most of the good people teaching there whom I know don't really seem to be very happy with overall teaching experience. There are other compensatory factors though, as rightly pointed out by you. TBF, several NLU alumni currently teaching at NLUs also share the same misgivings about their own classroom experience. Students are just no longer making an effort to learn, barring a few exceptions, according to them, despite them having a lot to offer and eager to help. Maybe it's a systemic problem, with jobs having turned into the only reason for getting a legal education for so many, and the 'glamour' of the entrance exams attracting the wrong set of students entirely.

OP Here. That is a larger systematic failure of law schools. Sadly the barometer of law schools have becomes its recruitment numbers ( I do not endorse this as a barometer) Students including me while I was a student did not consider alternative options till after securing a PPO. Strong interventions are needed in this regard to sort of provide students mostly the average ones, that there are options other than law firms. This is purely from my personal experience, I don't claim to speak for others. For example, I found securing a PPO the easiest thing to do at law school. Now I read these columns where people ask for tips to be a better intern and what not. It's really sad, but if you are from the top 2-3 law schools a law firm job is almost a given (Everyone who sat for recruitment was hired). So, then I wasted time doing those mind dulling corp internships where I could have taken more challenging courses, or used my internships better. But these things become clear only with hindsight. I do believe if 1st, 2nd years are sensitized to try different things, it will pay dividends.

Hello! OP here. I do largely agree with what you are saying. I would just like to add some things not necessarily as arguments against what you said, but a bit more about my own experience. I wholeheartedly agree that most faculty and their modules are rudderless, and they barely take any effort. Most "top" NLUs are running on student achievements barring maybe the recent hires made by NLS. However, maybe this is just me, but I have had 2 professors during my time at law school who deeply inspired me to take up academia. I am sure, like any other profession it comes with its pitfalls, politics and own toxicity. I don't see it as an escape as such, having worked in a tier 1 firm - money most definitely does not motivate me, and probably in the long run most of it will go in paying for healthcare. Given the pay scales of an Assistant Professor in NLUs/Jindal , I think I would be satisfied with the monetary remuneration.

As far as, Indian law schools go, I would only disagree till the extent that Unis like Jindal, NLU Delhi, NLS etc. are doing good work with their centres and some of the professors are really good. That is not to suggest the other unis are bad, these are ones I am aware off. Like Project39A at NLU Delhi does really fascinating work. So I think if someone is motivated + with some admin help, work at Indian Unis can truly be radical. I also do wish to give back to students in the way my professors inspired me, who knows if it weren't for those few classes I might have never considered this career and be stuck between the litigation/corp firm binary.

Hey OP, Clear up some wrong ideas. Pay at NLUs and Jindal is not comparable at all. At NLUs the permanent facutly salaries start at Rs 80,000 before tax. It will increase by less than a thousand a year till you get your next promotion when it increases by Rs 10,000. Many of the faculty at these NLUs are however kept on all kinds of genius arrangements such as contractual, adjunct, guest, etc.. They get between Rs 10,000 to 50,000 a month and literally zero job security (in most cases their contracts are renewed on a three/six monthly basis). In Jindal the pay is Rs 1L upto Rs 2.5L depending on your pedigree and specialization. They are able to give you a solid job if they like you whereas an NLU cannot simply hire someone even if he/she is the next Upendra Baxi.

At an NLU your deal will be
- Poor pay
- Poor peer group (reasons nicely outlined in earlier posts) This is the most important consideration
- bad infrastructure. simple things like getting resources, prints can be frustrating.
- all-year toxicity
- no time for phd without quitting

At JGLS your deal will be
- Average pay
- Excellent peer group
- Excellent infrastructure
- the usual politics like a law firm
- good support for phd, sabbaticals, work related leave
- more work stress in terms of targets for publishing etc.

Your comment about centres doing good work applies to very very few centres in literally two schools, NLUD and NLSIU. The rest are just shams disguised as centres where student projects are recycled into periodic "papers" and UGC funding is used to host some cookie-cutter seminars where some retired judge will blow hot air and receive a welcome gift. while students are cajoled and coerced into attending the event only to ask the customary Question.

I am happy to answer more questions that you have.

JGLS seminars and conferences use students to do exactly the same thing, by the way. Moreover, don't misguide outsiders about the 'excellent peer group' at JGLS. Sure there are good people there, but the percentage of below average people who have somehow paid for a foreign LLM is also high. I knew several people who are teaching there now to whom I won't entrust the legal education of even my enemies.
Further, the annual increment at public universities isn't less than 1000. Why do you keep commenting without having actual facts? The increment is as per UGC slabs. In addition, DA etc. also increases commensurately. It's the same for any central public sector employee. Nor do you have the slightest idea about the research done by all the centres of the NLUs. Granted they don't do PR blitz like JGLS, but some of them are doing decent work other than the ones you have mentioned. Compared to that, what amazing research has the JGLS research centres produced in a decade?

I've been toying with the idea of pursuing a PhD abroad to get into academics. I pursued an LLM from the UK, and saw the real difference between legal education in India v. abroad. Hence, I do not wish to pursue a PhD in India. But, I've heard that PhDs abroad can take a lot more than 4 years. Is this true? And, if the Uni does not pay a stipend, what other avenues does one have to sustain for such a long period? Real life experience (if any) would be most appreciated.

time taken to complete phd abroad: in the US it will take an average of 6 years (hearsay and some anecdotal evidence), in the UK the uni wants you to finish in 3 years, the reason is they only charge you tuition fee for 3 years then its just a nominal annual registration fee, so unis in the uk will try and push doctoral students to complete in less than 4 years. Even oxbridge nowadays ask academics to ensure that students are following the scheduled path to completion within the stipulated period. Furthermore the ERSC fundings are for 3-3.5 years so it is also an incentive for the student to finish it in 3 years.

funding: it is almost impossible to do phd in the UK without funding from the uni or some sponsoring body, the total costs for 3 years are upwards of £80k (including fees, accommodation, expenses etc.).

update - I ended up doing my LLM from an Indian Uni. The program itself was pretty good, but any suggestions on universities I can apply for teaching jobs? my experience is the same as my original query except with additional consultancy work, research work and a law review (international publication) and some more litigation experience before the LLM. Any suggestions for possible faculty positions in Indian unis?

Several NLUs are hiring now. The Goa one too. Check their official websites. Private law schools like Amity, KIIT, Alliance, Christ, Symbi, Bennett, Nirma are usually open to applications round the year. If you can get 2-3 Scopus publications, then try JGLS. That would make up for you not having a foreign LLM in their eyes.