Hi everyone. As someone who is new to the professional world, would like to ask for advice from the experienced folks on this forum on a few things.
1. Is having good relationships with your seniors/ colleagues/ peers even a thing, especially in law firms, or is it better to have a 'see through your deliverable and get out' attitude? 2. Do you need mentors within your team to grow? Someone who will put in the extra effort or go the extra mile to teach you the ropes, or have your back in tough situations? 3. How do you deal with colleagues who are willing to put you in a spot to look good before the seniors in your team? 4. How do you handle miscommunication? As someone who has been snapped at for not completing a deliverable when the same was not communicated to me properly, how do you handle such a situation in the present and avoid it in the future? 5. We usually submit work without receiving any feedback on it whatsoever. What is an acceptable way to ask for feedback to understand your mistakes, so as to avoid them in the future? There is a general feeling that everyone is busy all the time, so any call/ text/ email unless required seems to be a disturbance. 6. How do you set boundaries with your seniors, especially with regards to working over public holidays and or weekends unless absolutely necessary, and the time at which they can call/ message you for work. I have had seniors give me work in the evening on public holidays expecting it to be sent to them the same night or texting and calling at 11 in the night for work. 7. How do you deal with seniors who do not respond to your emails and messages? There comes a stage when following up becomes too awkward.
Please share your thoughts and/ or tips that you think have helped you. Thank You.
I'm going to try and answer these questions on the assumptions that: (1) these are good faith questions posed by someone who would be willing to put in the right kind of efforts, if guided, and (2) you're asking about the approach to be followed in a Tier-1 setup (though note that much of this may also be equally applicable in relation to other setups, even as I might not be in the best position to specifically comment on that).
(1) To put it simply, it is extremely important to have good (and at minimum, good working) relationships with your seniors (particularly those in your team) and from other teams as well. You may very well end up having to work with attorneys from other teams, including other practice areas, from time to time, and it is crucial to have a good working relationship with people. You can absolutely choose to adopt a 'see through your deliverable and get out' (your words) approach, but in my experience, the unforeseen externality of this approach is that you may (and most likely will) come across as someone who is insufficiently interested in your work (especially if your stated objective is to try and get out even as the work product in question may not be of sufficient quality as to be shipped out to the client/your reporting senior) and asocial, neither of which will do you any favours in the law firm setting in the short term or the long term. Also, and this is my experience, having a good sense of comradery with your colleagues (including your seniors) can go a LONG way in reducing the monotony/strain that the nature and extent of your work will inevitably place on you.
(2) You don't need one, but it surely will help. I must point out that I hear a lot of noise about finding mentors, and complaints about being insufficiently mentored (including on LI in other posts). I do not however see anywhere close to the same amount of angst being devoted to being mentor-worthy. Being worthy of mentorship isn't particularly hard; frankly, if you're in a Tier-1 set up, chances are your credentials are such that half your work is already done. The rest of it needs to come from you so that it is worth the time of your senior to try and help you grow, and requires: (a) that you not ask inane questions (try and figure things out and ask for help only if you can't); (b) take initiative to learn and apply yourself to whatever task you're doing. Contrary to what some (seeming) A0s etc., seem to have whined on here, doing diligences isn't mindless or "less serious" work - and frankly, a lot hinges upon it, even if may not be immediately apparent to you, and even diligences do require a lot of application of mind, particularly when it comes to chapters such as corporate, regulatory, etc.; (c) seek out work, and offer to help (why will someone care enough to help you beyond the bare minimum if your own modus operandi is to do the bare minimum and cut); and (d) proactively try to do a great job and avoid silly mistakes (difficult at times, when pressed for time, but try - nobody expects you to draft a perfect memo on Day 1, but signs of shoddy research, articulation etc., do not help). All of the aforesaid notwithstanding, note that some seniors are more personable than others (some can be borderline psychos - I've been a junior too, and have dreaded working with such characters), and some more patient and helpful than others. But work with what you have.
(3) I've had such colleagues who like to throw their colleagues under the bus to appear good/minimize the blame on themselves and find them to be contemptible. Understand that this behaviour is typically a result of insecurity on the part of such colleagues, and that while you can try and help them: (a) it may not work, and (b) more often than not, it really isn't your place to do so (yes, hierarchy does matter to an extent). In such cases (though note that this may not work all the time), speak to the relevant senior.
(4) Regarding: "As someone who has been snapped at for not completing a deliverable when the same was not communicated to me properly" -- what makes you so sure when you did not understand it properly despite the relevant task having been communicated to you properly? You might benefit from some introspection here. That said, in the event that you have not in fact been provided with enough/clear information, ask. But be sure to take notes carefully, when being briefed/instructed on any deliverable (I've seen juniors zone out in meetings, while being given tasks etc., and then later ask dumb questions -- don't be that junior) and to the extent possible, try figuring things out. If you still cannot understand, seek clarification, but be humble enough to acknowledge that the issue might not have been miscommunication on the part of the relevant senior (just as likely as it could have very well been, of course).
(5) If you're good at what you do (at your level of course), you will mostly get feedback on the shortcomings of your work. The best way to get feedback is to run redlines against the work product that is finalized against the work product that you put together (whether this is drafts of emails that you prepared, draft memos/opinions, draft agreements, DD reports, etc.). In all likelihood, you will be marked on the workgroup relating to the relevant matter and you should anyway keep track of the documents on the email trail. ALWAYS review redlines of incremental versions against your own draft and identify the revisions made. Sometimes, the changes might be of language (in which case don't assume it to be unnecessary, but rather, understand that in all likelihood there's a reason why your manner of articulation was revised) or substantive (in which case, try to identify the changes and their implications). Doing this will require you to spend more time than you would if you just jumped from one task to the other, and in my experience, a lot of juniors do not diligently review redlines (how do I know? I see the same mistakes over and over). You will have to learn to figure things out - I know this is one of those things that is easier said than done, but this is a skill you need to develop, and being in a law firm will force you to develop it whether you consciously try to or not.
(6) Sorry to say, but your attitude here is simply not compatible with the sort of rigor that work in law firms unfortunately requires. Nobody likes to work on weekends/public holidays. Do you honestly think your seniors are sitting glued to their laptops waiting for work to hit them? Get real - the pace of transactions and the volume of work, coupled with the unreasonable expectations that clients have managed to develop during the ongoing pandemic have made the work in law firms far more intense from an urgency standpoint. Not trying to deny the unfortunate reality of fake deadlines (yes, some of my colleagues continue to do this despite being counselled to not), but for the most part, if work needs to be done, it needs to be done. While you should absolutely ask for time if you genuinely feel like you do not have enough time to do a good job, or beg off work if you have genuine emergencies, do not assume that you have an automatic right to be unavailable during weekends/public holidays. The very unfortunate (and I hate to say this, believe me) reality is that this is an occupational hazard for which the solution needs to come from the top (and in my opinion, this is really not forthcoming). If the prospect of having an insane amount of work is a deterrent (and I can totally empathize with that), then sorry to say, but a law firm may simply not be an ideal work environment for you. It is what it is, and there is nothing to be gained from denying this.
(7) I don't like such colleagues (seniors or juniors) but understand that the person might just be too busy at the moment. In such case, follow up, once/twice if required. If the person does not respond and something gets put on hold because of that, take it up with him/her. That said, to the extent possible, try figuring things out and reaching out to other colleagues if it is not a matter specific issue (or if it is, there are other attorneys staffed on the matter).
On a concluding note, and I cannot emphasize this enough, do not take everything you read on LI when it comes to people venting about their lives (or lives at their respective law firms) at face value. There is a long onboarding period before which you start reaping the returns of your labour (several years - it is not till you become a senior SA or a junior PA that you begin to truly 'get' things -- but once you do, you'll realize that it is worth it; there's a reason so many of us are with our firms for several years).
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed, honest and practical response. Truly appreciate it. It is refreshing to look at things from the perspective of seniors. I definitely feel that I need to introspect and adjust my attitude and outlook towards a few things. This has been very helpful. Thank you.
Mohtarma Pehli baat toh aapki english bhot bhot shaandaar hai, matlab padh k maza aa gaya Aur aapki knowledge ka bhi jawaab nhi
Kuch line h aapke liye: Kya khoob likhti ho, badhi sundar likhthi ho jo bhi likho, kilhti raho achha lgta h, jeevan ka ab kuch purpose lgta h,
Gusthakhi maaf par aapke se koi contact krne ka tareeka h toh batao yaar, bhot ichha h apse baat krne ki har din itna positive reply nhi dekhne milta h LI pe
1. Good relationships never hurt. It leads to camaraderie and trust. I am more open and candid with associates who are cheerful. However, if your work is shoddy, good relationships will be of no help.
2. Absolutely and all the time. This is true even for SA level.
3. Don't be concerned about such colleagues. Simply don't help them unnecessarily. Seniors will be able to look through things in few months.
4. There could be various perspective to it - if you know the overall deadlines and you are also supposed to know that for the team to meet the overall deadline, you should complete your task within x days/hours, then you should complete it within that time even without express instructions. You can gauge the overall timeline by looking at the matter holistically through client emails etc. On the contrary, if ttere is a genuine lack of communication, please raise it with the senior at the earliest when the incidence is fresh in the memory. Do it tactfully so that it doesn't appear as if you are blaming the senior. Also, be respectful but do not act in a servile manner. In some cases, the seniors are real douchebags who throw the juniors under the bus because of their lack of efficiency / laziness. In such situations, please talk to your partner (and if required the HR) after you are absolutely sure that the senior is purely inefficient.
5. This is something for which you need pleasant camaraderie with your seniors. Whenever you submit your work to the senior always tell them that you will be happy to incorporate any changes which the senior may want.
6. Again, pl gauge whether the work really needs to be completed within that deadline or the senior is simply acting as a douche. Most of the times, the senior is working in multiple matters which may not be visible to you. Pl give some benefit of doubt to the senior. I start working at 7 at morning. Take a two hour break at 8:30 am and then work till 11/11:30 with a break of an hour and another half hour in between. I do not disturb the juniors before 10 am and after 8:30 pm. I expect the juniors to appreciate that I am working on more matters and if I m giving them a deadline, it's because I have to meet multiple deadlines in various other matters. This sense will come when we genuinely want our team to succeed and are concerned about the growth of the team in addition to personal growth.
7. Pl keep on following through emails - those don't hurt. Make your emails polite.
Also, pl discuss these issues with the partner as he/she will be able to implement processes (such as regular team meetings) and protocols (such as making it compulsory that all the mail's be marked to group ID) which could avoid unnecessary waste of time on trivial issues which if not sorted in a timely manner could destabilize the team or breed inefficiency.
1. Some juniors are extremely annoying and expect feedback for every deliverable. Don't be that. The senior's job is not to be a teacher but get the deliverable out to the client. You have to be willing to run a redline and understand. It involves a high degree of self learning. Do not expect the senior to go through every track change and explain why they made it. Given law firm deadlines, it is physically impossible for seniors to even acknowledge every deliverable sent to them, let alone give feedback.
2. On being snapped at when you didn't know what the deliverable was - this usually happens when the junior doesn't understand their role. If the senior asks you for meeting notes, and the junior says "I didn't know I was supposed to take it down" obviously you are going to get yelled at. Same with basic things like booking meeting rooms etc. Each practice area has things are to be taken care of by the junior on an unsaid basis. If you don't know that, that's probably a function of the WFH life. You need to understand what your role is from other juniors or A2/A3s. It is unlikely that the SA / PA will have the time, patience for this or entertain "I didn't know I was supposed to do this" excuses.
Your question on "boundaries" while seems legitimate reveals an underlying attitude that your seniors are out to get you and you view your job as 9-5 and get out. You should understand that you are a lawyer. Your seniors are dealing with clients, counterparties and possibly, senior counsel / court deadlines. Your responsibility is to those guys, not just your senior. That you don't comment on these deadlines is conspicuous and shows that you still think like an intern and not like a lawyer who is a team player. Its like being a researcher in the moot and saying "my teammate wants the research on this soon" without acknowledging memo submission deadline.
So for a junior to say "hey, I don't work at 6pm on a Saturday because that's how I structure my life" and think they are giving the finger to capitalism or whatever is in reality just showing the finger to the senior who is managing the deliverable and making sure the client is not pissed. Don't be surprised if you get bad feedback.
1. Is having good relationships with your seniors/ colleagues/ peers even a thing, especially in law firms, or is it better to have a 'see through your deliverable and get out' attitude?
2. Do you need mentors within your team to grow? Someone who will put in the extra effort or go the extra mile to teach you the ropes, or have your back in tough situations?
3. How do you deal with colleagues who are willing to put you in a spot to look good before the seniors in your team?
4. How do you handle miscommunication? As someone who has been snapped at for not completing a deliverable when the same was not communicated to me properly, how do you handle such a situation in the present and avoid it in the future?
5. We usually submit work without receiving any feedback on it whatsoever. What is an acceptable way to ask for feedback to understand your mistakes, so as to avoid them in the future? There is a general feeling that everyone is busy all the time, so any call/ text/ email unless required seems to be a disturbance.
6. How do you set boundaries with your seniors, especially with regards to working over public holidays and or weekends unless absolutely necessary, and the time at which they can call/ message you for work. I have had seniors give me work in the evening on public holidays expecting it to be sent to them the same night or texting and calling at 11 in the night for work.
7. How do you deal with seniors who do not respond to your emails and messages? There comes a stage when following up becomes too awkward.
Please share your thoughts and/ or tips that you think have helped you. Thank You.
(1) To put it simply, it is extremely important to have good (and at minimum, good working) relationships with your seniors (particularly those in your team) and from other teams as well. You may very well end up having to work with attorneys from other teams, including other practice areas, from time to time, and it is crucial to have a good working relationship with people. You can absolutely choose to adopt a 'see through your deliverable and get out' (your words) approach, but in my experience, the unforeseen externality of this approach is that you may (and most likely will) come across as someone who is insufficiently interested in your work (especially if your stated objective is to try and get out even as the work product in question may not be of sufficient quality as to be shipped out to the client/your reporting senior) and asocial, neither of which will do you any favours in the law firm setting in the short term or the long term. Also, and this is my experience, having a good sense of comradery with your colleagues (including your seniors) can go a LONG way in reducing the monotony/strain that the nature and extent of your work will inevitably place on you.
(2) You don't need one, but it surely will help. I must point out that I hear a lot of noise about finding mentors, and complaints about being insufficiently mentored (including on LI in other posts). I do not however see anywhere close to the same amount of angst being devoted to being mentor-worthy. Being worthy of mentorship isn't particularly hard; frankly, if you're in a Tier-1 set up, chances are your credentials are such that half your work is already done. The rest of it needs to come from you so that it is worth the time of your senior to try and help you grow, and requires: (a) that you not ask inane questions (try and figure things out and ask for help only if you can't); (b) take initiative to learn and apply yourself to whatever task you're doing. Contrary to what some (seeming) A0s etc., seem to have whined on here, doing diligences isn't mindless or "less serious" work - and frankly, a lot hinges upon it, even if may not be immediately apparent to you, and even diligences do require a lot of application of mind, particularly when it comes to chapters such as corporate, regulatory, etc.; (c) seek out work, and offer to help (why will someone care enough to help you beyond the bare minimum if your own modus operandi is to do the bare minimum and cut); and (d) proactively try to do a great job and avoid silly mistakes (difficult at times, when pressed for time, but try - nobody expects you to draft a perfect memo on Day 1, but signs of shoddy research, articulation etc., do not help). All of the aforesaid notwithstanding, note that some seniors are more personable than others (some can be borderline psychos - I've been a junior too, and have dreaded working with such characters), and some more patient and helpful than others. But work with what you have.
(3) I've had such colleagues who like to throw their colleagues under the bus to appear good/minimize the blame on themselves and find them to be contemptible. Understand that this behaviour is typically a result of insecurity on the part of such colleagues, and that while you can try and help them: (a) it may not work, and (b) more often than not, it really isn't your place to do so (yes, hierarchy does matter to an extent). In such cases (though note that this may not work all the time), speak to the relevant senior.
(4) Regarding: "As someone who has been snapped at for not completing a deliverable when the same was not communicated to me properly" -- what makes you so sure when you did not understand it properly despite the relevant task having been communicated to you properly? You might benefit from some introspection here. That said, in the event that you have not in fact been provided with enough/clear information, ask. But be sure to take notes carefully, when being briefed/instructed on any deliverable (I've seen juniors zone out in meetings, while being given tasks etc., and then later ask dumb questions -- don't be that junior) and to the extent possible, try figuring things out. If you still cannot understand, seek clarification, but be humble enough to acknowledge that the issue might not have been miscommunication on the part of the relevant senior (just as likely as it could have very well been, of course).
(5) If you're good at what you do (at your level of course), you will mostly get feedback on the shortcomings of your work. The best way to get feedback is to run redlines against the work product that is finalized against the work product that you put together (whether this is drafts of emails that you prepared, draft memos/opinions, draft agreements, DD reports, etc.). In all likelihood, you will be marked on the workgroup relating to the relevant matter and you should anyway keep track of the documents on the email trail. ALWAYS review redlines of incremental versions against your own draft and identify the revisions made. Sometimes, the changes might be of language (in which case don't assume it to be unnecessary, but rather, understand that in all likelihood there's a reason why your manner of articulation was revised) or substantive (in which case, try to identify the changes and their implications). Doing this will require you to spend more time than you would if you just jumped from one task to the other, and in my experience, a lot of juniors do not diligently review redlines (how do I know? I see the same mistakes over and over). You will have to learn to figure things out - I know this is one of those things that is easier said than done, but this is a skill you need to develop, and being in a law firm will force you to develop it whether you consciously try to or not.
(6) Sorry to say, but your attitude here is simply not compatible with the sort of rigor that work in law firms unfortunately requires. Nobody likes to work on weekends/public holidays. Do you honestly think your seniors are sitting glued to their laptops waiting for work to hit them? Get real - the pace of transactions and the volume of work, coupled with the unreasonable expectations that clients have managed to develop during the ongoing pandemic have made the work in law firms far more intense from an urgency standpoint. Not trying to deny the unfortunate reality of fake deadlines (yes, some of my colleagues continue to do this despite being counselled to not), but for the most part, if work needs to be done, it needs to be done. While you should absolutely ask for time if you genuinely feel like you do not have enough time to do a good job, or beg off work if you have genuine emergencies, do not assume that you have an automatic right to be unavailable during weekends/public holidays. The very unfortunate (and I hate to say this, believe me) reality is that this is an occupational hazard for which the solution needs to come from the top (and in my opinion, this is really not forthcoming). If the prospect of having an insane amount of work is a deterrent (and I can totally empathize with that), then sorry to say, but a law firm may simply not be an ideal work environment for you. It is what it is, and there is nothing to be gained from denying this.
(7) I don't like such colleagues (seniors or juniors) but understand that the person might just be too busy at the moment. In such case, follow up, once/twice if required. If the person does not respond and something gets put on hold because of that, take it up with him/her. That said, to the extent possible, try figuring things out and reaching out to other colleagues if it is not a matter specific issue (or if it is, there are other attorneys staffed on the matter).
On a concluding note, and I cannot emphasize this enough, do not take everything you read on LI when it comes to people venting about their lives (or lives at their respective law firms) at face value. There is a long onboarding period before which you start reaping the returns of your labour (several years - it is not till you become a senior SA or a junior PA that you begin to truly 'get' things -- but once you do, you'll realize that it is worth it; there's a reason so many of us are with our firms for several years).
Hope this helps.
Aur aapki knowledge ka bhi jawaab nhi
Kuch line h aapke liye:
Kya khoob likhti ho, badhi sundar likhthi ho
jo bhi likho, kilhti raho achha lgta h,
jeevan ka ab kuch purpose lgta h,
Gusthakhi maaf par aapke se koi contact krne ka tareeka h toh batao yaar, bhot ichha h apse baat krne ki
har din itna positive reply nhi dekhne milta h LI pe
1. Good relationships never hurt. It leads to camaraderie and trust. I am more open and candid with associates who are cheerful. However, if your work is shoddy, good relationships will be of no help.
2. Absolutely and all the time. This is true even for SA level.
3. Don't be concerned about such colleagues. Simply don't help them unnecessarily. Seniors will be able to look through things in few months.
4. There could be various perspective to it - if you know the overall deadlines and you are also supposed to know that for the team to meet the overall deadline, you should complete your task within x days/hours, then you should complete it within that time even without express instructions. You can gauge the overall timeline by looking at the matter holistically through client emails etc.
On the contrary, if ttere is a genuine lack of communication, please raise it with the senior at the earliest when the incidence is fresh in the memory. Do it tactfully so that it doesn't appear as if you are blaming the senior. Also, be respectful but do not act in a servile manner. In some cases, the seniors are real douchebags who throw the juniors under the bus because of their lack of efficiency / laziness. In such situations, please talk to your partner (and if required the HR) after you are absolutely sure that the senior is purely inefficient.
5. This is something for which you need pleasant camaraderie with your seniors. Whenever you submit your work to the senior always tell them that you will be happy to incorporate any changes which the senior may want.
6. Again, pl gauge whether the work really needs to be completed within that deadline or the senior is simply acting as a douche. Most of the times, the senior is working in multiple matters which may not be visible to you. Pl give some benefit of doubt to the senior. I start working at 7 at morning. Take a two hour break at 8:30 am and then work till 11/11:30 with a break of an hour and another half hour in between. I do not disturb the juniors before 10 am and after 8:30 pm. I expect the juniors to appreciate that I am working on more matters and if I m giving them a deadline, it's because I have to meet multiple deadlines in various other matters. This sense will come when we genuinely want our team to succeed and are concerned about the growth of the team in addition to personal growth.
7. Pl keep on following through emails - those don't hurt. Make your emails polite.
Also, pl discuss these issues with the partner as he/she will be able to implement processes (such as regular team meetings) and protocols (such as making it compulsory that all the mail's be marked to group ID) which could avoid unnecessary waste of time on trivial issues which if not sorted in a timely manner could destabilize the team or breed inefficiency.
1. Some juniors are extremely annoying and expect feedback for every deliverable. Don't be that. The senior's job is not to be a teacher but get the deliverable out to the client. You have to be willing to run a redline and understand. It involves a high degree of self learning. Do not expect the senior to go through every track change and explain why they made it. Given law firm deadlines, it is physically impossible for seniors to even acknowledge every deliverable sent to them, let alone give feedback.
2. On being snapped at when you didn't know what the deliverable was - this usually happens when the junior doesn't understand their role. If the senior asks you for meeting notes, and the junior says "I didn't know I was supposed to take it down" obviously you are going to get yelled at. Same with basic things like booking meeting rooms etc. Each practice area has things are to be taken care of by the junior on an unsaid basis. If you don't know that, that's probably a function of the WFH life. You need to understand what your role is from other juniors or A2/A3s. It is unlikely that the SA / PA will have the time, patience for this or entertain "I didn't know I was supposed to do this" excuses.
So for a junior to say "hey, I don't work at 6pm on a Saturday because that's how I structure my life" and think they are giving the finger to capitalism or whatever is in reality just showing the finger to the senior who is managing the deliverable and making sure the client is not pissed. Don't be surprised if you get bad feedback.