Amit Shah has been in power for almost 8 years now. The law and order scene across the country hasn't really improved any. As for the magic wand, that's the jumla that they promise for getting votes.
Blood shed across the valley has stopped? So all those people killed in the last 2 years and the last week were figments of their families' imagination, were they?
Whatever is said about Modiji automatically becomes relevant and super important regardless of the context. He is like the holy river Ganga, purifying everything that one throws at him, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Modiji is like the Samay from BR Chopra's Mahabharat ("Main samay hoon").
I got your point. R said that this comment was marked trollish because it lacks relevance in this thread. Had the comment been used to start a new thread altogether like the Haryana one, then it might not have been marked trollish either if I understood R's explanation correctly.
Haryana ke chorre was a separate thread on its own, so you cannot logically use it to debunk R's argument of the comment lacking relevance in the present thread.
I am genuinely curious about the authority behind the population decrease and comparison claim. Has there been a census report to such effect? And if the population has indeed decreased, is that because of any government policy? Because I'm unaware of any law that allows Muslims to propagate in this country, but forcibly prevents the Hindus from doing so. If you are afraid of the conversions, then make your religion appealing enough for everyone currently professing it, simple. I am a Hindu myself, very comfortable with my identity, and will not convert to any other religion. Which is why I will not forcibly prevent anyone else who wishes to convert, either. That's not really what Hinduism is all about.
With regard to the selective outrage point, surely what you are saying amounts to whataboutery, unless the liberals are actually supporting the second category of killings, which nobody is? It is enough that the issues against which someone raises their voice are real ones, it is not really essential to raise voice against every real issue. Nothing was stopping you from raising your voice against both the killings when you were a self-proclaimed liberal.
Not very sure where you came across the liberal-Muslim-Dalit conspiracy, but in any case, when a Dalit dies in the hands of an upper caste Hindu, 9 times out of 10 it is a conflict where caste has played a role, hence the tag of caste violence. If a Dalit or a Muslim engage in violence with each other, the reasons for that cannot obviously really be a caste issue, because their religions and communities differ, so how can someone tag it as caste violence? That doesn't mean the violence cannot be condemned just the way it is.
Finally, pray tell how does it make sense that the state is pro-Hindu and at the same time you are still wary against the Muslims because your legitimate claims are being denied in their favour? In fact, what sort of legitimate claims have Hindus been denied all over India because of this supposed Muslim appeasement? I come from a state with a sizable Muslim population. Despite all the propaganda foisted by RW mouthpieces, I have never felt in my life to have been denied any right because of the supposed Muslim appeasement.
None of your arguments sadly withstands any scrutiny. Which is what makes me believe that you are no longer a liberal (assuming you ever had been one) because you simply lack conviction in liberal values and not really because of any other reason. It is not a crime not to be a liberal, just as it is not necessary to masquerade as one or even a former one when your bias is fairly evident from your comment.
If you can approve "Haryana ke Chorre" without labeling it "trollish" then our understanding of that terms is vastly different.
You have to realise that everybody is not going to share all your opinions and having a different opinion, especially when it seems well articulated and not aimed at trolling or triggering others, is not a crime.
If you disagree with an opinion, sure - leave a comment like anybody else (although as a moderator, I would not participate in a discussion except to moderate it for complying with the rules of the forum, but maybe that's just me).
Do not let your personal opinions (howsoever righteous and morally superior) cloud how you moderate comments.
Original comment was calling out hypocrisy of left not govt (stick to context of original statement) and left is in/out of power (declining, now restricted to kerela) since independence.
Criticse, that's what they do best but keeps mum on several key issues as mentioned earlier.
I am an erstwhile “liberal/woke” jholawala. Now, I just strive to emulate the reasonable man who holds a venerated place in the annals of common law.
What made me change? Read on:
1. The liberal/woke junta is allergic to uncomfortable facts. Not only do they discard them - they actively make efforts to subvert them and the source of the facts. I’ll give one example. The claim that Hindu population of India has decreased since independence with corresponding gain in Muslim population is an established fact (it’s 4% change). No less than Shekhar Gupta, the poster boy of LW media, admits it in so many words. Yet, the liberal/woke folks either ignore this or actively dispute this fact. What is telling of the magnitude of this problem is that Shekhar had to himself exhort the liberals to not deny these facts and face up to them. See: https://youtu.be/YurDBNieOcs
2. The ability to conflate issues is dangerous to the point of being diabolical. Everytime, a Dalit is killed at the hands of an “upper” caste, it is news, the identity of the victim as a Dalit is amplified and such instances are held up as an example of caste repression. Caste repression is used a reason to foist a grand alliance between Muslims and Dalits - the alliance of the “oppressed”. However, whenever there are instances of violence by Muslims against Dalits, the reporting is such that you will not fully realise that the victim is a Dalit. Take for instance the street vendor killed in Srinagar as a part of radical religious terrorism against minorities. He is a Paswan - a Dalit. How many liberals will rage against this?
3. Selectivism. Facebook is flooded, and rightly so, when a person from Muslim community is lynched. But there is complete silence when Sikhs, Dalits and KPs are killed in Kashmir. I was amused to see one of my only objective liberal friend trying to exhort her FB friends into condemning these killings lest they be accused of pseudo-secularism.
4. Downright opportunism. The liberal/woke support to the Kashmir cause is premised on the fact that it is a “freedom” struggle of “indigenous people” irrespective of religion with the aim to stop the machinations of the Indian state from changing the demography of the State. However, they forget this, when it comes to resettling Rohingyas in J&K. They will champion the cause of resettling Rohingyas in J&K (because, photo-op, public profile generation, and overall do-gooder award bhi to Lena hai). Isint that going to change demography? Or is that justified because Rohingyas are Muslims?
The state in India is partial to Hindus no doubt. Most middle class and upper middle class Hindus harbour waryness if not ill-will towards Muslims. But how did we come to this? By years of denying legitimate concerns. By years of calling anyone raising legitimate facts which are uncomfortable or inconvenient to the liberal/woke cause as Sanghi. Their elitism alienated the fence-sitters. Before you take issue with this logic remember the same logic is used to defended radical Islamic terrorism in India - that they were alienated by years of name calling.
Congrats, liberals, you’ve managed to do that to the majority now.
To conclude, you think Amit Shah has a magic wand in his hand that within 2 years of him taking control of the security, terrorism will die down. I must say people have lot of expectation from Mr. Shah or in his efficiency. Don't forget, 40 years of terror cannot be eradicated in 2 years!
Yes, Amit Shah must be blamed but one must also acknowledge the fact that situation has only improved since last two. There is a ray of hope, don't eclipse it. I am hopeful that in next 5-7 Kashmir will be at par with North-Eastern states.
Modi implemented something nearly impossible by imposing martial law, putting elected officials under house arrest and suspending connectivity of the entire place. Everyone was in awe of the fact that there was no violence. Buy you still want something to cry about so you'll talk about the means used to achieve peace
However, if these measures were not implemented there would have been blood shed across the valley and even then I'd find you crying here about how Modi could not do anything about the violence and that he should've implemented precautionary measures.
It's clearly visible who has got a propaganda here.
Violence and terrorism haven't really been curbed. Just that the government is now the party inflicting it. Peaceful implementation, lol! It had to be done by imposing martial law, putting elected officials under house arrest and suspending connectivity of the entire place for over a year. Go take the propaganda elsewhere.
This government has made it clear that all of its election promises that are actually for the benefit of the people (and not the useless stuff like Mandir Wahin Banayenge) are merely jumlas. Only idiots would keep expecting otherwise, not that there is a dearth of those in this forum.
Modi also failed to condemn China after the clashes. Hasn't done so even till date after the Uttarakhand incursion. Just in case you have forgotten. And what exactly do you want the Left to do about the situation of the minorities in Pakistan? Didn't know that Left had ever assumed power in the Central Government.
The only left party has never said a word against China, they are the only party in world which passed a resolution in support of tiananmen square.
Refused to condemned the open calls from mosques to ethically cleanse pandits, does dog shit about minority condition in Pakistan, bent the ass on staple visa issue for arunachal and failed to condemn China after galwan clashes.
This is what happens when you identify as a KP but are disassociated with Kashmir in general. The government has curbed terrorism to a level that Article 370 could be revoked peacefully. Nobody could’ve imagined in their wildest dreams that in a state like J&K, the special status could be revoked without a shred of violence. If you actually knew Kashmir you’d know that it is filled with extremists and terrorists but both are different. If this was China, it was simple, just kill all the extremists and terrorists but this is India and unfortunately, extremists and separatists still identify as civilians, and with all the human rights watch around Kashmir, there’s very little the government can do. The army has been alleged to have done multiple fake encounters in past. These encounters were of borderline terrorists. One fine day, these extremists and separatists pick up arms and they become terrorists but till then they are just civilians. Even if the intelligence gets to know of their intention somehow (which is very difficult because lefties start crying right to privacy), unless and until these extremists are actually caught with weapons, they can only be detained for some time. And if there's any more efforts from the government, the commies and lefties would make a yakub menon out of him, "Innocent Delhi University student being detained and tortured by fascist government". (https://thewire.in/rights/uapa-bjp-terrorist-amit-shah-nia) ( https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/3-students-with-alleged-links-to-kashmir-terror-groups-arrested-in-punjab-1929977) It's not as simple as you think it is. If you've actually lived in Kashmir, you'll know that a borderline terrorist is your neighbor but you can't do anything about it because human rights. It's not as simple as MHA being headed by Amit Shah. To curb terrorism, extremism has to be curbed which is a very gradual process and can not involve violence in a country like India. The only route is education which takes time.
There is a global terrorism index released each year and no fascist Modi government has no role in its estimation or publication. Between 2018-19, it was among the 10 countries that witnessed the largest decrease in deaths from terrorism. There has also been a 16 percent decrease in the overall economic impact of terrorism on India over the same period. According to the GTI Report, in 2019, the country saw a 20 percent reduction in deaths from terrorism and attacks in India. You can also pick up the stats on the number of terrorists eliminated each year after 2014 and the number of terrorist attacks predicted and prevented. Kashmir is a highly volatile territory with Muslim majority and if any civilian who was merely extreme with his views but did not have a gun with him is arrested under the rule of a government which is termed to be islamophobic then that would lead to more deaths in the valley of the very Hindus that are left. If you really want to see swift action and no terrorists in Kashmir valley, it is a very unfortunate things to say, but you'll have to remove international media and human rights activists for a day and you'll have peace from the very next day. But unfortunately, as of now, the government is trying to preserve the very democratic and rule of law that y'all lefties preach which is why terrorism in Kashmir will take time to end.
Not really. The RW part is the claim that the Left-ish media aren't talking about it. By all means discuss the failure of the governments past and present to have actually made any difference in the lives of the KPs yet. That's the sort of discussion every democracy benefits from. Also spare a thought for the Rohingas too if you can. Because, you know, humanity.
Apart from 2, the rest of the points are neither a reality yet, nor are some of them actually useful for the migrants such as temple construction. Out of the 3000 jobs promised in 2015, how many of those has actually happened? And why only 3000? It's been 2 years since revocation of 370, I don't see peace reigning in the valley as promised by your overlords who thought that the revocation will solve all the problems of the region in a jiffy!
So it’s liberal and woke to further the cause of resettling Rohingya immigrants into J&K, but it’s diabolical RW garbage to espouse the cause of the ethnic minority of J&K who have faced ethnic cleansing at the hands of the majority there?
When did being woke/liberal start to mean being a hypocritical dumbass?
Hello fellow KP (even though you doubt I'm a KP - the person in the Wire video I posted earlier is also a KP).
For all the plans that you have listed, it will be good to have actual hard numbers which have actually been achieved on ground. Only then can we figure out if it's just vote bank politics and lip service or something more than that.
My last bit. Article 370 has been revoked now (which I believe was the right thing to do). J&K is a union territory now. Which means that the Central Govt is responsible for the security in Kashmir. Specifically, the MHA headed by Amit Shah is responsible for security no? These are facts, right? Now, please identify who is to blame for the continuing security situation where KPs are still being killed in Kashmir, even after 2 years of revocation of Article 370. If terrorists can still freely target KPs with impunity, doesn't the Govt need to answer why it hasn't been able to provide enough security or improve the law and order situation?
You can keep dreaming that the situation is improving gradually. I would respectfully disagree with you. There's been no on ground change in the situation for KPs.
Your knowledge about what has happened and what is happening will always be limited to the wire, you'll never dare to actually peek out and have a look at the reality out there. Here is what the current government has done for the Kashmiri Pandits-
1) Revocation of Article 370 despite immense protest from the political parties that you give lip service to. 2) The government provides Rs 13,000 per month to the families of 44,000 Kashmiri Pandits who have relief cards. The government also provides free ration and has plans to settle them back in their houses in the Valley by 2022. 3) Read up on the Jammu and Kashmir Reorganisation (Amendment) Bill of 2021 4) Rs 5,000 crore would be spent on the restoration of temples. In Kashmir, there are more than 1,387 temples and heritage sites, which are more than 3,000 years old 5) Under the Prime Minister’s Development Package, 2015 announced by the Prime Minister on 7 November 2015, the Government of India had approved the creation of 3,000 additional state government jobs solely for the Kashmiri migrants at a cost of Rs 1,080 crore. 6) In terms of construction of houses and transit accommodation, the government has approved the “construction of 6,000 Transit Accommodations in the Kashmir Valley at a cost of Rs 920 crore. This is in addition to the construction of 725 transit accommodations sanctioned earlier, besides financial assistance for the construction of houses for the migrants and 5,242 two-room tenements constructed in Jammu (Purkhoo, Muthi, Nagrota, and Jagti) and 200 flats constructed at Sheikhpora in Budgam district for the migrants.”
I don't know if you're actually a Kashmiri Pandit but I being one, would not take it from you. You do not represent us. The thing is that you see Kashmiri Pandits as a political entity and nothing much. If you actually saw us as humans, you would've understood that the process has to be really slow. You cannot bring in a cultural change in a highly radical society swiftly, it has to be gradual. If Kashmiri Pandits are rehabilitated tomorrow then there would be violence just like there was yesterday.
Take it from a Kashmiri pandit - it's extremely saddening how KPs are used a political tools. Perhaps this video from the Wire (yes, that website) summarises it well.
The left consistently devalues lives not just of Kashmiri Pandits, but also Tibetan Buddhists, Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, and Hindus, Christians and Baluchi Muslims in Pakistan.
The wire has reported about the atrocities on Kashmiri Pandits multiple times. You just choose to not read it and then complain that they dont report it.
It’s heartbreaking to see Kashmiri Pandits being attacked even to this day. Shouldn’t we, as Indians, hold a candid debate on the underlying issues behind such incidents, without fear of being branded as Bhakts or Bigots? Also, why isn’t such news reported by the Wire/ NDTV as well?
With regard to the selective outrage point, surely what you are saying amounts to whataboutery, unless the liberals are actually supporting the second category of killings, which nobody is? It is enough that the issues against which someone raises their voice are real ones, it is not really essential to raise voice against every real issue. Nothing was stopping you from raising your voice against both the killings when you were a self-proclaimed liberal.
Not very sure where you came across the liberal-Muslim-Dalit conspiracy, but in any case, when a Dalit dies in the hands of an upper caste Hindu, 9 times out of 10 it is a conflict where caste has played a role, hence the tag of caste violence. If a Dalit or a Muslim engage in violence with each other, the reasons for that cannot obviously really be a caste issue, because their religions and communities differ, so how can someone tag it as caste violence? That doesn't mean the violence cannot be condemned just the way it is.
Finally, pray tell how does it make sense that the state is pro-Hindu and at the same time you are still wary against the Muslims because your legitimate claims are being denied in their favour? In fact, what sort of legitimate claims have Hindus been denied all over India because of this supposed Muslim appeasement? I come from a state with a sizable Muslim population. Despite all the propaganda foisted by RW mouthpieces, I have never felt in my life to have been denied any right because of the supposed Muslim appeasement.
None of your arguments sadly withstands any scrutiny. Which is what makes me believe that you are no longer a liberal (assuming you ever had been one) because you simply lack conviction in liberal values and not really because of any other reason. It is not a crime not to be a liberal, just as it is not necessary to masquerade as one or even a former one when your bias is fairly evident from your comment.
If you can approve "Haryana ke Chorre" without labeling it "trollish" then our understanding of that terms is vastly different.
You have to realise that everybody is not going to share all your opinions and having a different opinion, especially when it seems well articulated and not aimed at trolling or triggering others, is not a crime.
If you disagree with an opinion, sure - leave a comment like anybody else (although as a moderator, I would not participate in a discussion except to moderate it for complying with the rules of the forum, but maybe that's just me).
Do not let your personal opinions (howsoever righteous and morally superior) cloud how you moderate comments.
- R
Criticse, that's what they do best but keeps mum on several key issues as mentioned earlier.
What made me change? Read on:
1. The liberal/woke junta is allergic to uncomfortable facts. Not only do they discard them - they actively make efforts to subvert them and the source of the facts. I’ll give one example. The claim that Hindu population of India has decreased since independence with corresponding gain in Muslim population is an established fact (it’s 4% change). No less than Shekhar Gupta, the poster boy of LW media, admits it in so many words. Yet, the liberal/woke folks either ignore this or actively dispute this fact. What is telling of the magnitude of this problem is that Shekhar had to himself exhort the liberals to not deny these facts and face up to them. See: https://youtu.be/YurDBNieOcs
2. The ability to conflate issues is dangerous to the point of being diabolical. Everytime, a Dalit is killed at the hands of an “upper” caste, it is news, the identity of the victim as a Dalit is amplified and such instances are held up as an example of caste repression. Caste repression is used a reason to foist a grand alliance between Muslims and Dalits - the alliance of the “oppressed”. However, whenever there are instances of violence by Muslims against Dalits, the reporting is such that you will not fully realise that the victim is a Dalit. Take for instance the street vendor killed in Srinagar as a part of radical religious terrorism against minorities. He is a Paswan - a Dalit. How many liberals will rage against this?
3. Selectivism. Facebook is flooded, and rightly so, when a person from Muslim community is lynched. But there is complete silence when Sikhs, Dalits and KPs are killed in Kashmir. I was amused to see one of my only objective liberal friend trying to exhort her FB friends into condemning these killings lest they be accused of pseudo-secularism.
4. Downright opportunism. The liberal/woke support to the Kashmir cause is premised on the fact that it is a “freedom” struggle of “indigenous people” irrespective of religion with the aim to stop the machinations of the Indian state from
changing the demography of the State. However, they forget this, when it comes to resettling Rohingyas in J&K. They will champion the cause of resettling Rohingyas in J&K (because, photo-op, public profile generation, and overall do-gooder award bhi to Lena hai). Isint that going to change demography? Or is that justified because Rohingyas are Muslims?
The state in India is partial to Hindus no doubt. Most middle class and upper middle class Hindus harbour waryness if not ill-will towards Muslims. But how did we come to this? By years of denying legitimate concerns. By years of calling anyone raising legitimate facts which are uncomfortable or inconvenient to the liberal/woke cause as Sanghi. Their elitism alienated the fence-sitters. Before you take issue with this logic remember the same logic is used to defended radical Islamic terrorism in India - that they were alienated by years of name calling.
Congrats, liberals, you’ve managed to do that to the majority now.
Yes, Amit Shah must be blamed but one must also acknowledge the fact that situation has only improved since last two. There is a ray of hope, don't eclipse it. I am hopeful that in next 5-7 Kashmir will be at par with North-Eastern states.
Modi implemented something nearly impossible by imposing martial law, putting elected officials under house arrest and suspending connectivity of the entire place. Everyone was in awe of the fact that there was no violence. Buy you still want something to cry about so you'll talk about the means used to achieve peace
However, if these measures were not implemented there would have been blood shed across the valley and even then I'd find you crying here about how Modi could not do anything about the violence and that he should've implemented precautionary measures.
It's clearly visible who has got a propaganda here.
The only left party has never said a word against China, they are the only party in world which passed a resolution in support of tiananmen square.
Refused to condemned the open calls from mosques to ethically cleanse pandits, does dog shit about minority condition in Pakistan, bent the ass on staple visa issue for arunachal and failed to condemn China after galwan clashes.
There is a global terrorism index released each year and no fascist Modi government has no role in its estimation or publication. Between 2018-19, it was among the 10 countries that witnessed the largest decrease in deaths from terrorism. There has also been a 16 percent decrease in the overall economic impact of terrorism on India over the same period. According to the GTI Report, in 2019, the country saw a 20 percent reduction in deaths from terrorism and attacks in India. You can also pick up the stats on the number of terrorists eliminated each year after 2014 and the number of terrorist attacks predicted and prevented. Kashmir is a highly volatile territory with Muslim majority and if any civilian who was merely extreme with his views but did not have a gun with him is arrested under the rule of a government which is termed to be islamophobic then that would lead to more deaths in the valley of the very Hindus that are left. If you really want to see swift action and no terrorists in Kashmir valley, it is a very unfortunate things to say, but you'll have to remove international media and human rights activists for a day and you'll have peace from the very next day. But unfortunately, as of now, the government is trying to preserve the very democratic and rule of law that y'all lefties preach which is why terrorism in Kashmir will take time to end.
So it’s liberal and woke to further the cause of resettling Rohingya immigrants into J&K, but it’s diabolical RW garbage to espouse the cause of the ethnic minority of J&K who have faced ethnic cleansing at the hands of the majority there?
When did being woke/liberal start to mean being a hypocritical dumbass?
For all the plans that you have listed, it will be good to have actual hard numbers which have actually been achieved on ground. Only then can we figure out if it's just vote bank politics and lip service or something more than that.
My last bit. Article 370 has been revoked now (which I believe was the right thing to do). J&K is a union territory now. Which means that the Central Govt is responsible for the security in Kashmir. Specifically, the MHA headed by Amit Shah is responsible for security no? These are facts, right? Now, please identify who is to blame for the continuing security situation where KPs are still being killed in Kashmir, even after 2 years of revocation of Article 370. If terrorists can still freely target KPs with impunity, doesn't the Govt need to answer why it hasn't been able to provide enough security or improve the law and order situation?
You can keep dreaming that the situation is improving gradually. I would respectfully disagree with you. There's been no on ground change in the situation for KPs.
1) Revocation of Article 370 despite immense protest from the political parties that you give lip service to.
2) The government provides Rs 13,000 per month to the families of 44,000 Kashmiri Pandits who have relief cards. The government also provides free ration and has plans to settle them back in their houses in the Valley by 2022.
3) Read up on the Jammu and Kashmir Reorganisation (Amendment) Bill of 2021
4) Rs 5,000 crore would be spent on the restoration of temples. In Kashmir, there are more than 1,387 temples and heritage sites, which are more than 3,000 years old
5) Under the Prime Minister’s Development Package, 2015 announced by the Prime Minister on 7 November 2015, the Government of India had approved the creation of 3,000 additional state government jobs solely for the Kashmiri migrants at a cost of Rs 1,080 crore.
6) In terms of construction of houses and transit accommodation, the government has approved the “construction of 6,000 Transit Accommodations in the Kashmir Valley at a cost of Rs 920 crore. This is in addition to the construction of 725 transit accommodations sanctioned earlier, besides financial assistance for the construction of houses for the migrants and 5,242 two-room tenements constructed in Jammu (Purkhoo, Muthi, Nagrota, and Jagti) and 200 flats constructed at Sheikhpora in Budgam district for the migrants.”
I don't know if you're actually a Kashmiri Pandit but I being one, would not take it from you. You do not represent us. The thing is that you see Kashmiri Pandits as a political entity and nothing much. If you actually saw us as humans, you would've understood that the process has to be really slow. You cannot bring in a cultural change in a highly radical society swiftly, it has to be gradual. If Kashmiri Pandits are rehabilitated tomorrow then there would be violence just like there was yesterday.
7 years immediately after the Kashmiri exodus and 8 years of full and absolute majority.
Still, all they have done for kashmiri pandit is - zilch!
https://youtu.be/CXu0KUeYKiA
There's absolutely nothing that the current and the past governments have done for rehabilitation of KPs, except lip service and token steps.
This is one article for last year.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/rights/kashmiri-pandits-exile/amp
- R
https://youtu.be/V8gCd-BITBQ