I am a fresh law graduate, neither from a tier 1 college nor practicing in any tier 1 firm. But I saw you posted this query 2 years back. How is it going with you today? Is it any better ?
Hello! How to apply under you/someone you recommend? First gen law graduate, just joined a startup/corp because survival expenses, my work is fine so far but i wanna go to courts
I’ve come to the conclusion that nothing is really worth it and there is no dream job. Whatever purpose you need to fulfil at one time, follow that. If you can’t do something anymore just try something else. Eventually you may find relative happiness in something and come to value it. Beyond that I doubt there is any perfect job in the world and I doubt there is any perfect employer. But how you feel is very common so don’t lose hope and keep your spirits high!
You are throwing away the most important learning and foundation years to be a well paid clerk.After some time it will be too late because you will be stuck here without too many choices.
Abbey the problem is, we cannot afford to get that start. Everyone has to start somewhere, we don't magically gain knowledge on drafting etc and if you don't have the means to sustain yourself, where are you going to get this start? Paralegal work does not pay enough either? It's not even about "delayed gratification", it's about it legitimately being impossible to wait for basic pay. 20-35k in Delhi or Bombay is a joke. No one's asking for 15 lakhs a year, just perhaps even 55k a month in Delhi is at least manageable. In fact there are some lawyers like Nakul Dewan and Rajshekhar Rao and someone on a previous thread mentioned Kartik Nayyar as well, who do pay above 40k but these are few and far between. The vast majority pays absolute peanuts for longer than one year and if your family circumstances make it impossible to get extra money, where would you even start? I personally faced this same problem. I got through law school only because of a partial scholarship. I have to repay a loan of the remaining fee. My family cannot afford to send me extra money for one year and they're from Lucknow, I can't live in Delhi or Bombay, so I don't have a choice but to litigate locally in Lucknow now since I live with my parents to save on rent. My situation is not unique, enough other people across NLUs have similar experiences. Why should litigation in Delhi and Bombay be the domain of only privileged kids?
I am a First Gen Lawyer, and whatever you have said is mostly bad advice. Anybody who has studied properly in college, can hold his own ground in litigation. Just because your basics were weak, doesn't mean that is the case with everyone.
No matter which lit chamber you join, you are invaluable since Day1 if you are in a chamber where there is a lot of work.
Seeking passovers, doing legal research, accompanying Munshi to file, following up with Registry is as important as any other thing that you do. Paying anything less than 25k to a fresher is criminal.
In HC, SC practice, you can spend 10 years in a chamber, but you will still be doing things which you did on your first day of practice. Except for the fact that you know who to ask and where to go, litigation is hands on since day 1 and you are doing the work which you will also be doing when you have an independent practice.
Seniors who earn 300 crores in a year, don't spend even a crore on their staff plus juniors.
Established non designated seniors spend as little as 20-30 lakhs per annum for the entire set up, including infrastructure. It is a shame.
Not an attack on any fresher dismayed by the low pay in litigation. A perspective from a fellow fellow Gen 1 litigator and fresher not so long ago, and now well settled in a tier 1 city despite being from a small town.
In my experience, freshers wouldn't even know where a particular court is, let alone aspects of the CPC, CrPC or Rules of Practice at trial courts or the High Court. Most wouldn't know drafting and have next to no understanding of evidence or cross examination. Client management and billing? What's that?
Truth is your expensive colleges and professors with mostly academic backgrounds do not prepare you for a career in litigation in your five years in college. Yet, your parents pay them absurd fees. You should ask your professors why you don't know how to prepare plaints, written statements, rejoinders, affidavits, applications, writ petitions, company petitions, PILs, criminal complaints, appeals, etc., even after five years in college.
Your choice of moots are always international law or constitutional law or humanitarian law. You don't get to handle that as a fresher in litigation though, so have they really helped you? Your moot societies could conduct mock trials instead and you will see your knowledge actually improve. But who wants to experience a mock trial when one can argue at the ICJ or ICC.
Your internships are barely four weeks, just to get certificates. You don't want to be a paralegal for longer periods of time after college hours because that is too rigorous. Office work in litigation usually commences at 5 pm after courts close but that is your chill time or whatever.
Your first mentors in litigation teach you what your professors and college do not, and much more. I know it sucks not to be paid enough to live in the city of your practice, but that changes as soon as you pick up the basics and learn how to be a resource your mentor can generate billing for. A year, if you really want to grow. Surely after paying through your nose for five years learning very little, you can try to be humble and bear low pay for a year. Your earning will match your learning in litigation. If delayed gratification deflates you, you wouldn't be able to overcome the kind of challenges litigation will bring your way.
I really wish litigation and policy and other jobs paid more at entry level. In Delhi and Bombay, Freshers don't even get enough money to pay rent, let alone have enough to repay their student loans or even just cover living expenses. This has caused a lot of people to be forced into choosing corporate law firm jobs after law school because law school is not cheap and they have loans or have to help their families or even if they stay in other cities and cannot afford to take money from parents to live in a bigger city and pursue these jobs. It's not like litigation seniors cannot afford to pay. Increasing litigation and other salaries would open so many options to less privileged people and also perhaps help break the "disposable associate" idea that these law firms use to exert pressure on their retainers.
I do nothing, whine a lot and expect to be paid significantly higher than freshers with other degrees.
Despite choosing to work in a lawfirm, knowing fully well the insane work hours and the pressures that come with it, I merely question my existence. I am unable to shake away the shackles of a high retainer and quit to do something meaningful with my life.
The salary at a Tier 1 should be more than enough to save a tidy amount after living well. This might sound condescending but as an A0 to A3 it might help to see if you can reduce your discretionary expenses if you're living by yourself in a metro city.
As for the work - one of the big reasons I am ttryingto get into Counsel practice, despite the potential of a drastic fall in income, is I noonger want to devote the majority of my time and energy into Pagination and formatting documents. Make no mistake, all that is valuable and worthy work, but at some point you would want to devote the majority of your time to pure Law as opposed to Filing work.
“I am surprised by humanity. Because a man sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.” Dalai Lama.
An amazing, healthy conversation with such good answers. Then there is always this one guy who ruins everything with the snarky little "reality checks". Come on man, go take out your negativity on your family, not here.
Don't look for advice on this from strangers, whose motivations and minds you know nothing of and probably won't be able to relate to. Look for a few people you personally know who lead lives that you would at least partially like to emulate. Speak to them - folks who have similar values and preferences to you.
I was in your shoes once and it was fruitless discussing this with other lawyers, each of whom had their unique baggage and were clearly trying more to convince themselves (rather than me) of the joys of the lives they'd chosen.
On the basis of your post it's clear to me you are someone who needs meaning and fulfilment, above just promotions and hard cash. Make space in your life for those opportunities to come to you, stay open. They're out there.
I have also faced similar sentiments. In the end, it's law only that worked for me, and in all the years of wilderness, I understood that while the world is changing for everyone, it's only for law that nothing becomes obsolete, and instead it adds to your experience. So, if you are 65+ in law, you are going to be valued for the number of years you have under your belt (assuming they were spent in serving clients and practicing law). If you are 65+ years in engineering, you are most likely going to be outdated and inadequate to learn the latest programming fad of the day.
Being salty towards someone who is genuinely confused about their life progression while acknowledging their privilege is not giving them a reality check.
Have you thought about what you might want to do next? Asking since I’m also in a similar position. Don’t seem to be a host of options that would facilitate an easy shift abroad. Best bet seems to be foreign law firm (which in itself is a long shot and doesn’t really solve anything from what I understand)
Please quit your job and enjoy life. There are many of us who love your job, you quitting would make it easier for much more deserving students from across the country. Don't forget that your peers in Litigation make less than 1/5th of what you are making.
I do a lot of downvotes. Glad that I could give you a reality check.
I have spent years like this. Drifting. Camus isn't the person to show the way. Kafka spent years working as an accountant. Pessoa is another person I really found comfort in. I can't answer your question, but I can tell you this - the fact that you are here means you understand yourself very well. Try writing - honest writing - maybe you will find a way
It is a rat trap - tiny bits of cheese that keep increasing every year to make you keep running the rat race.
But the truth is competition in the market always creates lower prices. So the more you compete to be like others, the more limited your earning potential will be. You want to earn a lot? Be more unique and spend your time doing things that only you can do given your experiences in life. Initially earning may be a little less, but they'll grow exponentially over time.
If you stick to jobs which anyone can be trained to do, you'll only be paid as per pay bands and your growth will always be capped @ what your owner thinks you deserve.
I think about this almost every day. The only thing that stops me from quitting is that I don't really know what exactly I want to do as an alternative - COVID has been a spoiler that way especially when I wanted to go, experiment and work on social issues "on the ground".
I've realised I need about 30k a month max apart from rent to live a decent life (no plans of marriage and kids). So at that range, I can pretty much go for any job as long as the work is fulfiling. I will be putting in papers as soon as the world opens up again (my firm insists that is October 2nd week).
In the same boat as you - tier 1 graduate at a tier 1 firm. Thinking of working and saving up for a couple of years more and then move abroad. Will quit law entirely and go to a field with less pressure - I'm fine with less money. Just want peace.
I mean well and am trying to show you the positives... Don't hate me.
1. Work gets more interesting as you go up the ladder, I promise
2. At this stage in your career, your job is grunt work or at least work that is largely that of a paralegal + intern + work that gets revised by the SA / PA. So for that kind of work, what you are getting paid is pretty amazing.
3. In a law firm, the big bucks pour in post SA level. So don't compare yourself with your engg buddies just yet. Hold on until 5-6 PQE and then compare yourself with your peers.
4. As for work life balance, if you really want to compare, compare yourself with doctor friends and feel good 😃
5. Also, there are perks you enjoy that you may not be considering - for instance, tax structure; longevity of your career - at age 55, you'll have aged like a fine bottle of wine. Engineers are obsolete in their 40s - so they really need to make their life's money now and in the next decade. You can work in your 60s for 5-6 hours a day too.
6. I personally think law firm lawyers are on an avg smarter and better informed than engineers in a typical IT company (even the high-end ones) - and I see this by itself as a perk - to be in a smart working environment with smart people around.
Basically, comparison is the thief of joy. someone will always have a better life and be luckier than you. The "what if..." mentality is not healthy. Life trajectories are different for all. even within lawyers - an in house counsel is so different from a litigating lawyer. Hope you love your work, or at least can live with it. If not, try and change it now rather than later.
I am a graduate of a tier 1 law school and have been working in a tier 1 firm. I used to think the upside of this work was getting paid well. After getting the money in hand and spending I realised that it is not as much as I thought it was considering how expensive things are, and I had been taking my dad's hard earned money for granted. The fresher salaries have not increased to accommodate the increasing cost of living unlike other fields. My friends are all engineers and almost all of them whether they are from a tier 1 college, tier 2 or tier 3 college earn as much as me or more than me, with godly incentives and less work pressure, after 2+ PQE, as I had taken re-attempts of entrances. I just want to ask seniors that I don't mind the work (yet) which is boring and even nerve-racking at times, but if I am not doing something good for the society or for myself and am not earning well, what's the upside of my job? What does my knowledge and effort amount to, of which I was very proud of in law school, when dancing people on reels cross my annuals with a finger-snap? I know that I am speaking from a position of gross privilege but I just want to know these answers so that I can take the best possible decision for myself.
I am a fresh law graduate, neither from a tier 1 college nor practicing in any tier 1 firm. But I saw you posted this query 2 years back. How is it going with you today? Is it any better ?
No matter which lit chamber you join, you are invaluable since Day1 if you are in a chamber where there is a lot of work.
Seeking passovers, doing legal research, accompanying Munshi to file, following up with Registry is as important as any other thing that you do. Paying anything less than 25k to a fresher is criminal.
In HC, SC practice, you can spend 10 years in a chamber, but you will still be doing things which you did on your first day of practice. Except for the fact that you know who to ask and where to go, litigation is hands on since day 1 and you are doing the work which you will also be doing when you have an independent practice.
Seniors who earn 300 crores in a year, don't spend even a crore on their staff plus juniors.
Established non designated seniors spend as little as 20-30 lakhs per annum for the entire set up, including infrastructure. It is a shame.
In my experience, freshers wouldn't even know where a particular court is, let alone aspects of the CPC, CrPC or Rules of Practice at trial courts or the High Court. Most wouldn't know drafting and have next to no understanding of evidence or cross examination. Client management and billing? What's that?
Truth is your expensive colleges and professors with mostly academic backgrounds do not prepare you for a career in litigation in your five years in college. Yet, your parents pay them absurd fees. You should ask your professors why you don't know how to prepare plaints, written statements, rejoinders, affidavits, applications, writ petitions, company petitions, PILs, criminal complaints, appeals, etc., even after five years in college.
Your choice of moots are always international law or constitutional law or humanitarian law. You don't get to handle that as a fresher in litigation though, so have they really helped you? Your moot societies could conduct mock trials instead and you will see your knowledge actually improve. But who wants to experience a mock trial when one can argue at the ICJ or ICC.
Your internships are barely four weeks, just to get certificates. You don't want to be a paralegal for longer periods of time after college hours because that is too rigorous. Office work in litigation usually commences at 5 pm after courts close but that is your chill time or whatever.
Your first mentors in litigation teach you what your professors and college do not, and much more. I know it sucks not to be paid enough to live in the city of your practice, but that changes as soon as you pick up the basics and learn how to be a resource your mentor can generate billing for. A year, if you really want to grow. Surely after paying through your nose for five years learning very little, you can try to be humble and bear low pay for a year. Your earning will match your learning in litigation. If delayed gratification deflates you, you wouldn't be able to overcome the kind of challenges litigation will bring your way.
Despite choosing to work in a lawfirm, knowing fully well the insane work hours and the pressures that come with it, I merely question my existence. I am unable to shake away the shackles of a high retainer and quit to do something meaningful with my life.
As for the work - one of the big reasons I am ttryingto get into Counsel practice, despite the potential of a drastic fall in income, is I noonger want to devote the majority of my time and energy into Pagination and formatting documents. Make no mistake, all that is valuable and worthy work, but at some point you would want to devote the majority of your time to pure Law as opposed to Filing work.
Don't die never having lived.
Forwarded as received
I was in your shoes once and it was fruitless discussing this with other lawyers, each of whom had their unique baggage and were clearly trying more to convince themselves (rather than me) of the joys of the lives they'd chosen.
On the basis of your post it's clear to me you are someone who needs meaning and fulfilment, above just promotions and hard cash. Make space in your life for those opportunities to come to you, stay open. They're out there.
Please quit your job and enjoy life. There are many of us who love your job, you quitting would make it easier for much more deserving students from across the country. Don't forget that your peers in Litigation make less than 1/5th of what you are making.
I do a lot of downvotes. Glad that I could give you a reality check.
- R
But the truth is competition in the market always creates lower prices. So the more you compete to be like others, the more limited your earning potential will be. You want to earn a lot? Be more unique and spend your time doing things that only you can do given your experiences in life. Initially earning may be a little less, but they'll grow exponentially over time.
If you stick to jobs which anyone can be trained to do, you'll only be paid as per pay bands and your growth will always be capped @ what your owner thinks you deserve.
I've realised I need about 30k a month max apart from rent to live a decent life (no plans of marriage and kids). So at that range, I can pretty much go for any job as long as the work is fulfiling. I will be putting in papers as soon as the world opens up again (my firm insists that is October 2nd week).
- R
1. Work gets more interesting as you go up the ladder, I promise
2. At this stage in your career, your job is grunt work or at least work that is largely that of a paralegal + intern + work that gets revised by the SA / PA. So for that kind of work, what you are getting paid is pretty amazing.
3. In a law firm, the big bucks pour in post SA level. So don't compare yourself with your engg buddies just yet. Hold on until 5-6 PQE and then compare yourself with your peers.
4. As for work life balance, if you really want to compare, compare yourself with doctor friends and feel good 😃
5. Also, there are perks you enjoy that you may not be considering - for instance, tax structure; longevity of your career - at age 55, you'll have aged like a fine bottle of wine. Engineers are obsolete in their 40s - so they really need to make their life's money now and in the next decade. You can work in your 60s for 5-6 hours a day too.
6. I personally think law firm lawyers are on an avg smarter and better informed than engineers in a typical IT company (even the high-end ones) - and I see this by itself as a perk - to be in a smart working environment with smart people around.
Basically, comparison is the thief of joy. someone will always have a better life and be luckier than you. The "what if..." mentality is not healthy. Life trajectories are different for all. even within lawyers - an in house counsel is so different from a litigating lawyer. Hope you love your work, or at least can live with it. If not, try and change it now rather than later.
Take care of your mental health, kiddo.
2. https://blog.ipleaders.in/lawyers-quit-their-law-firm-jobs/
3. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-most-lawyers-hate-jobs-stay-anyway-annie-little-
4. https://abovethelaw.com/2016/08/this-is-why-working-in-biglaw-sucks-so-hard/
5. https://medium.com/@sunshineyin/why-staying-at-your-law-firm-is-riskier-than-quitting-part-1-7981580b4e38
I just want to ask seniors that I don't mind the work (yet) which is boring and even nerve-racking at times, but if I am not doing something good for the society or for myself and am not earning well, what's the upside of my job? What does my knowledge and effort amount to, of which I was very proud of in law school, when dancing people on reels cross my annuals with a finger-snap? I know that I am speaking from a position of gross privilege but I just want to know these answers so that I can take the best possible decision for myself.