I guess you are new to the lit world I have been associated with sir (offcos. when he was physically practising in India ) for a good amount of time and I can affirm this i have seen some most of the most influential people meeting in his chambers and he actually make more than 200+ similar story with AMS , KS and MR
Ashwath has tax issues. His old income is pretty public. Nowhere near 25 crores. Viswanathan makes about 20 crores, Akshay Chudasama 14 crores while Raghbir Menon is 10 crores.
Very difficult to acurately estimate how much Harish Salve makes. He also gets paid beyond per hearing. It is rumoured that he received 100 crore for representing Mukesh Ambani in a matter. He also gets paid abroad as was exposed in the Panama Papers: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/panama-papers-india-part-1-list-garware-shishir-k-bajoria-harish-salve/ All these BVI entities were set up much before he bacame Queen's Counsel and it will not surprise me if many of the payments for the services provided to Indian clients are made through offshore accounts.
There is a file in the name of one Salve linked to Advaita India Energy Ventures and Advaita India Ventures in Guernsey Island, London and other tax havens. As per the documents and letters from Desai Associates the firms named as Advaita’s directors are Salve (also chairman), John Forry, Robert Paul King, Kiran Vadlamani and Narasimharamulu Pantam. As per the Desai Papers, these firms have offices in the UK, Mauritius and Guernsey Island, apart from offices in India.
Net margins are closer to 20-30% - 35% is an exceptional year depending on operating leverage.
Also law firm revenue growth (for firms of this size) isn’t anywhere close to 32% per annum as you’ve implied using Khaitans 600Cr FY19 as base. It’s closer to 8-10% per annum on average.
Avg non-equity partner comp for Tier 1 Partners is 1.5C.
Re-do the math and you’ll get number much close to what the CA poster has suggested.
We are commercial lawyers, thoda commerce bhi sumjho ✌️
I don’t think the above numbers are correct. Revenues of Tier 1 firms like AZB would easily be above 1000 crores. KCO publicly disclosed upwards of 600 crores a few years back and they have all got busier since. A conservative profit margin of 40% would leave 400 crores to distribute amongst the EPs. If 100 crores is set aside for the 12-15 non name partners, that leaves 300 crores for A, Z & B. 60 for Zia is extremely low therefore. Must be more like 150 for her, 100 for Ajay and 50 for Bahram. Ashwath would be making the bulk (between 20-25 crores) of the 100 crores set aside for non name partners.
People are obviously having a hard time believing these figures, so let’s back it up. I work at a tier 1 and brief HS, MR, AMS, KS and other top seniors at least 3 to 4 times a week. We get to see their causelist for those days so that we can keep track of their bandwidth. These guys on a good regular day do at least 3 to 4 matters a day and charge Rs 30 lakhs per hearing. Miscellaneous days are another story. 10L easy per matter, and they do around 5 to 10 easily (more when courts were physical). Add to this arbitration which may happen post 4 pm on weekends or on weekends, which can fetch a similar amount at least twice or thrice a month.
Something to put this in further context. AMS is an MP so he declares his assets.
If you see above, Z is around 60. Not sure Ajay might be higher. But what I can't really get is the gap between B and Z, assuming it's true. How can B is just one fifth of Z?
How much do partners of startup law firms make? I interned at TRA (now Ikigai)... their partners made around 3 cr each in 2017-18. Sagus Legal managing partner takes homes 5cr+
Why don't you STFU and atleast believe what people say at times. The problem with you and some likes is you don't wanna believe what others say and impose your thoughts on others! PS: I haven't written 7.1
Agree - but surprised that B is getting one fifth of Z, and even A is getting some 20% more than B. Thought the founders all had a large chunk. Any idea how their pie gets divided?
RS - does he still operate on outcome based mandates? Don't think after leaving ELP, his chamber size is that big or has that many matters to go to this amount, while undoubtedly he's doing good even independently.
ND @ NDA and RS @ ex-ELP - the figures for these two are well know by every tax partners in accounting firms, been 20cr+ for many years now. The third maybe LKS(?) even though Delhi HQ - can't think of another leading tax law firm...
Yes, they are. My father is a practicing advocate at Bombay. He's an early senior advocate (in his 50s) and I can tell you our family income ranges above 10 crores.
I work at one of the Amarchands (not being specific to disclose identity) because my father thinks exposure to law firm will give me an idea about organizational structures and to help me think larger than chambers. But yes, once you make it big as a law, the managing partners who hold most of the equity like a Cyril, Shardul or Zia do make in the vicinity of 50 crores per annum.
Though compared to what a good litigator with experience can make, it is honestly lesser. Especially given the fact that you're building upon a 500 people organization who are working day and night.
Which tax firm MPs are you talking about? Bombay has only ELP as a mainly tax firm. LKS MP is in Delhi. Or you consider other CA firms as well? Ex MP I guess should be from a firm which doesn't exist anymore? Come on, give some more details about tax firms.
This is correct, roughly. There are many SC seniors who are making 100Cr+.
Just take their per-hearing fee, look at the number of cases they appear in, adjust for pro bono cases, and add outstation fee (pre-covid) and conference charges, legal opinion charges, etc. You'll soon realise that even the senior advocates who are not as big as Salve are also making a crore a month, easily.
This thread is so surreal. Are these numbers real?
A criminal lawyer in Mumbai making 50 crore seems impossible for me. Have heard of many top trial lawyers making upto 2 crore. But a criminal lawyer making 50 crore seems impossible.
Also the transactional law firm lady making 60 crore should be a Tier 1 firm like AZB or Trilegal. Even in Tier 1 firms, making 60 crores seem impossible.
The high end income tax CA community in Bombay is rather small & given the proximity between the two professionals there is a lot of interest in what lawyers make.
Below are some figures I know off, take with a pinch of salt as they are hearsay but from people working in CA firms who handle their filings:
At the best transactional firm the leading lady is at 60C+, the other founding partner is at 12C+ and the young gun at 14C+.
In Seniors the two leading commercial and one leading criminal counsel are all 50C+.
On the tax side (this really burns us as we are in same practice) the MPs of the two leading tax firm are 25C+ as is the ex MP of the third leading tax firm.
Unfortunately no stats on Delhi seniors but have heard numbers of ~3x of the leading Bombay seniors for the 3-4 leading Delhi names mentioned by other comments.
Harish Salve’s returned income in AY 2011-12 was Rs. 50.5 crores: so the estimate of 100-200cr annually as total receipts in the subsequent few years would be quite a reasonable ballpark figure… https://indiankanoon.org/doc/115084903 (para 4)
About 7 years ago, Janak Dwarkadas’s returned income (Asst Year 2014-15) was Rs 32.85 crores. See para 2 of this order of the ITAT: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/51786764/
That’s a jump of 4 crores in a couple of years. In the 6 years thereafter, I would expect the jump to be quite a bit more.
Very interesting to note that in AY 1996-97 (when he would have been on the cyst of senior designation), his returned income was around Rs. 1.26 crores. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/168478889/
Applying the indexation index that is around the following amounts in today’s terms: 1996-97: Rs. 3.75 crores odd. 2014-15: Rs. 44.94 crores odd.
Note: this is returned income - professional receipts could be close to 1.5 to 2x that (because this is the post expense, post tax deduction claims amounts).
Mohit Saraf who held 33% equity in L&L made 8 crores per annum as per revelations during the firm dispute. So that means, RKL, the managing partner who holds 66%, makes 16 crores.
Even assuming other firms like CAM/SAM/AZB/Khaitan are bigger in size and revenue, the managing partner (who hold between 20-70%) just be making 30 crores max. This is after running a firm with 500-100 employees.
Some litigating lawyers in the country make that much alone - Harish Salve makes almost 3-5 times that amount with hardly ten underpaid juniors under him.
Harish salve 300 crores 40 lakhs per appearance
AM Singhvi 200 crores 20 lakhs per appearance
Zia / Cyril / Shardul not exactly sure but around 100 crores 10% of 1000 crores firm revenue
Ashwath has tax issues. His old income is pretty public. Nowhere near 25 crores. Viswanathan makes about 20 crores, Akshay Chudasama 14 crores while Raghbir Menon is 10 crores.
AZB also gets Amazon pay:)
All these BVI entities were set up much before he bacame Queen's Counsel and it will not surprise me if many of the payments for the services provided to Indian clients are made through offshore accounts.
Harish Salve's name has also appeared in the Desai Papers:
https://www.legallyindia.com/convos/topic/179364-nishith-desai-associates-caught-in-india-s-panama-papers-dubbed-desai-papers
Quote:
Also law firm revenue growth (for firms of this size) isn’t anywhere close to 32% per annum as you’ve implied using Khaitans 600Cr FY19 as base. It’s closer to 8-10% per annum on average.
Avg non-equity partner comp for Tier 1 Partners is 1.5C.
Re-do the math and you’ll get number much close to what the CA poster has suggested.
We are commercial lawyers, thoda commerce bhi sumjho ✌️
Something to put this in further context. AMS is an MP so he declares his assets.
https://myneta.info/interestbyrajyasabhamember/candidate.php?candidate_id=731
Please note that his TAXABLE income for 2016-17 was around 130 crores, which means his revenue for that year is easily 200+.
So all those who can’t believe the 100-200 crore figures, hope this gives you something to think about.
PS: I haven't written 7.1
RS the number was as of 1 years ago that I know. Also his work is still advisory and court practice lots of opinion work.
NDs tax practice is largely Bombay based.
LKS’ income is even more sizeable than the other two.
How can a civil Litigation lawyer ever make that. No matter how rich clients are.
Also this salary might be true in Mumbai/Delhi. But nowhere else.
ND - is he a Bombay guy? Thought he is not.
The guy who shared these tidbits - some more.
I work at one of the Amarchands (not being specific to disclose identity) because my father thinks exposure to law firm will give me an idea about organizational structures and to help me think larger than chambers. But yes, once you make it big as a law, the managing partners who hold most of the equity like a Cyril, Shardul or Zia do make in the vicinity of 50 crores per annum.
Though compared to what a good litigator with experience can make, it is honestly lesser. Especially given the fact that you're building upon a 500 people organization who are working day and night.
Just take their per-hearing fee, look at the number of cases they appear in, adjust for pro bono cases, and add outstation fee (pre-covid) and conference charges, legal opinion charges, etc. You'll soon realise that even the senior advocates who are not as big as Salve are also making a crore a month, easily.
A criminal lawyer in Mumbai making 50 crore seems impossible for me. Have heard of many top trial lawyers making upto 2 crore. But a criminal lawyer making 50 crore seems impossible.
Also the transactional law firm lady making 60 crore should be a Tier 1 firm like AZB or Trilegal. Even in Tier 1 firms, making 60 crores seem impossible.
Below are some figures I know off, take with a pinch of salt as they are hearsay but from people working in CA firms who handle their filings:
At the best transactional firm the leading lady is at 60C+, the other founding partner is at 12C+ and the young gun at 14C+.
In Seniors the two leading commercial and one leading criminal counsel are all 50C+.
On the tax side (this really burns us as we are in same practice) the MPs of the two leading tax firm are 25C+ as is the ex MP of the third leading tax firm.
Unfortunately no stats on Delhi seniors but have heard numbers of ~3x of the leading Bombay seniors for the 3-4 leading Delhi names mentioned by other comments.
How much will they be making?
In Asst year 2011-12, his returned income was Rs. 28.84 crores. See https://indiankanoon.org/doc/120373345/
That’s a jump of 4 crores in a couple of years. In the 6 years thereafter, I would expect the jump to be quite a bit more.
Very interesting to note that in AY 1996-97 (when he would have been on the cyst of senior designation), his returned income was around Rs. 1.26 crores. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/168478889/
Applying the indexation index that is around the following amounts in today’s terms:
1996-97: Rs. 3.75 crores odd.
2014-15: Rs. 44.94 crores odd.
Note: this is returned income - professional receipts could be close to 1.5 to 2x that (because this is the post expense, post tax deduction claims amounts).
Even assuming other firms like CAM/SAM/AZB/Khaitan are bigger in size and revenue, the managing partner (who hold between 20-70%) just be making 30 crores max. This is after running a firm with 500-100 employees.
Some litigating lawyers in the country make that much alone - Harish Salve makes almost 3-5 times that amount with hardly ten underpaid juniors under him.
Isn't that interesting?
100 crore a year? No matter how high stakes are in the cases he is arguing. This is a lotttt.