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Too many turns of bad behaviour being accepted.
I am sure you have career aspirations so you are tolerating it but have your dignity first. Ambition later.
As Rajnikant says:
mind it!
Harass me once shame on you harass me many times, shame on me.
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From a woman who is partly sympathetic
but, I hope you remain safe and happy. I wanted to talk about that hobby thing, but that's just pointless and we are not friends talking over something. so, I think I'll end this.
it was nice listening to you through your words.
1. On the issue of why do people not call out the predators. I myself was a victim of harassment by a partner in one of the teams where I was working. The said partner called me and said many things which are unsavoury for this platform. I informed a senior in the team who was a friend of mine. The said senior was sympathetic to me and said I have to bring this up to the management. I did not do anything. I had no evidence. I am quite tech savvy myself, but when the call was made, I was too perplexed and agitated to even think about recording the call. I did not go about making any complaints because I knew I couldn't succeed, and the partner would not be going anywhere. In the end, in a few years, the partner would be deciding the fate of my promotion. I quietly laid down and just distanced myself from the partner. Few months later, on a later night - during caffeine driven work session, one of my immediate juniors informed that the same happened with them. I shared my story and encouraged her to share. In an adrenaline filled moment, I was also ready to go with her and share my story. We decided to think over it. In the morning she decided she will just move on as she too couldn't prove any of it. Both of us were too low in the entire structure and the said partner was a senior one. Few months later the young colleague left the firm. I did sometime later. One of the reasons we did not proceed with any action, because we knew this is not a zero-sum game, once we fail to prove anything, we will face retribution. Further, once things get out, we will also become elements of discussion. Neither of which we wanted to bear over and above our extensive work headache. We just wanted to finish work and go have a separate life of our own. It is very easy to shoot the gun from someone's shoulder when your ass is not on the line. If you ever face a situation like this (hopefully not), you will realise the naivety of your argument.
Second point of why remuneration, PPO, etc are important. I do not know about you, but i do not do my job as a hobby, I am good at it and give it my heart and blood to be recognised for my abilities. But i do not enjoy it per se. I do it so that i can make good money to do things I love. And while there may be predators in the workplace, there are many others who are perfectly okay colleagues. I don't want to jeopardise my growth for something i may not be able to prove, because the entire reason i am working, is to grow and make more money. Attaching a predator without sufficient evidence seems like a "high-risk-low-return" game. While i like to have other's back, i prefer to have my own back first. Another reason i do not want to attach someone without sufficient evidence because once the ordeal is over, I will most certainly will have to move jobs. You can look at various examples in tier I firm for this. And I do not want to do that. I have spent hours, sweat and life to develop a reputation and reliability amongst my seniors. Something which enables me to get ahead of my peers. I do not want to spoil that restart that entire process.
I am not Bapuji Mahatma Gandhi or Netaji Subhas Bose. I am a lowly worker who understands the limitations of my abilities. These are the reasons why unattainable loftier goals are not prioritised by me. I suspect - based on my interaction with few others - this is the reason for them too.
People are absolute entitled creeps on power trips and I'm sorry this horrid experience ruined your internship. While I've been lucky to have extremely warm friendships and mentoring relationships with men at my T1 firm, it's an infuriating fact that most of us have to deal with some version or the other of this over the years. Does not make it normal or acceptable!! One thing that helps - though it sucks that I even have to recommend this, as if it should be your burden to do! - is to ask around for a background check on the partner/ team reputation (and later client too). The predatory ones have a stink most of the time. :-/ Can do the same enquiry as to what rep the firm has re actually taking actions on complaints.
On your practice area comment - I'm sorry to hear this is making you reconsider. Might I suggest looking for a partner team in the practice area which has a woman boss? Most do now, thankfully! Happy to recco names if you need :) I have worked under a woman partner all these years and would heartily recommend it irrespective of your experience here, because leaving aside the problematic BossLady stereotype for a moment, there's something to be said for the feeling of power and imagination when you can see her command a negotiation/ courtroom :)
All the best!
I completely agree with the downside of calling it out. although, I would keep my reservation on few things.
you've(WOW) mentioned about a particular partner is infamous was such things, here my friend is my problem when such is a rampant state of affairs and you yourself know few handfuls of them, I think if they would've come out against him then it might have made a difference. obviously, in such a case where there is a group of individuals that comes out, then they will be presumed to be true backed by such regular instances and not just one random. I agree with most of the things you've said though. I've no problem with people not agreeing with me. but it was my genuine apprehension.
@OP, I've nothing about you, my motto is not to question your credibility per se. it's rather a disappointment that if a person does something wrong, we can't do anything. this is where the problem begins and I for a reason think talking anonymously over this helps none. because what we're giving message across is "how to dodge such person" instead of "how to make this person stop". this approach is almost similar to saying to a girl to not go out of home after 8. this is itself a low-key variant of victim-blaming. where we condition a victim in such a way that they safeguard themselves from these, instead of ending such practice.
@Wow, I have one more reservation for you. you said that people fear the person who is in the power of position. you said your job, PPO, etc can be at stake. that makes me wonder do we help ourselves enough? isn't it owing up the moral obligation of pursuing it enough? (assuming we have some evidence to prove) if we ourselves put PPOs, Jobs before such things. are we helping ourselves and other females to come? are we creating a better environment for them?
Btw, OP if you were to believe my words for any suggestions. give yourself the respect you deserve by leaving the job/internship and let that person know.
@WOW I would love to hear from you on the above things. it's okay if you don't agree with me. But definitely want to know your viewpoint. I mean, even OP can answer anything she wants.
Also, I am frustrated that these things just won't do enough. I was really happy when people called out that Adv. Mukul. I know good enough law firms partners won't leave such evidence if they do. but surely if some behaviour is repetitive, you sure can capture evidence.
take care and be safe!
I'm in my 4th year. It really sets my confidence back by a lot because the practice area I'm hoping to pursue has a considerable gender gap. Also, thank you.
I would also like to think I am not doing it for clout since this is completely anonymous. I do not have enough evidence, and I do not wish to make life hell for someone I have no concrete evidence against. I am merely initiating a discourse on legally india which I believe provides me with security and at the same time fulfils the purpose. And to of course seek support and alternatives, which I got and I am very thankful for.
Having said that, even though I am in no emotional state to have my credibility questioned, I understand your cynicism about taking my word for it, But again, if I were to gain something by this I'd rather put it up on my social media pages, which again, cynics like you would point out I did it to attain popularity by trying to bring someone accomplished, down. Please think before you write.
1. I am associated with a tier 1 firm for the last 6 years. If you are in CAM / AZB / KCO, I will imagine that you know / have heard of quite a few partners, who are "allegedly" constantly misbehaving with women. Both retainees and interns. But curiously nobody calls them out. Is this because these whispers are all false? But, then a questions arises on why are so many people spreading a rumour against only a specific set of people? A more reasonable explanation is, because, (i) no junior, be it an intern or a new joinee wants to face the wrath of a person who is in a position of power - specially a power over the future of the victim (in terms of remuneration, or PPO or promotion or just staffing in good matters, etc), and (ii) more importantly these issues are very difficult to prove - because of which even in a official complaint-driven-process pretty much nobody faces any consequence in the end. However, these things barely remain discreet, and the people involved become gossip fodder. Nobody wants to go through with that. So women do not always initiate actions. The same goes for men as well who are harassed. Unfortunately for them, peer based ridicule is another problem. Thankfully in cases of women being harassed, most third parties are allies.
2. You feel that this kind of harassment is over the top. But its not. Its actually very sophisticated. Once you call someone on whatsapp and then convert it to video, the call records show it as an audio call. Plus, the entire conversation is e2e encrypted, therefore, if the recipient of the call is not tech savvy he / she will get any opportunity to record this. Therefore, irrespective of whatever is said, the victim can prove almost none of this against the predator in a credible manner. This is the thriving zone of a predator. In our country, once a woman fails to adequately prove her allegations, people quickly jump on the "she is doing it for attention" bandwagon. This is another reason why victims avoid agitating this issue. They think if they let sleeping dogs lie, they can come out of it relatively unscathed. At least publicly.
The world is not binary. Just because you are right and standing up for something which is right doesn't mean that you will not have adverse consequences. Life is terribly unfair, and this is something everyone should realise and internalise. It will help you have genuine empathy for your fellow men and women.
Also, get down from your "i know best" horse. Just because people are disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are living in a cocoon. The fact that everyone disagreed with you should tell you something. Listen to what the world is telling you. You will come out better for it.
I am not looking to argue with you. If you don't agree with me, I wish you the best. If you agree with me, I still wish you the best.
And yes, I know about all those instance where women cried foul and men severely socially, emotionally and financially languished as a result of it (in and without the legal circle). Given that this is entirely anonymous, I have to be braid dead to think this is the case here.
I ain't saying this is impossible. I am saying that at the higher level it is not as rampant and over the top as OP sounds to be. All i am saying when such things which are backed by evidence, are just talk. to malign or paint conditioning of how law firms work.
also, since you involved "world leaders, can you name me such people against which we have evidence? because the last time I checked allegations don't prove anything.
I have already posted a big clarification post seeing so many dislikes, which should give more explanation over this.
give me a single instance of calling out a partner in a reputed firm? tell me, I am waiting here, you have none, while I can give so several such partners names who have been called out before( but you'll hardly know them)
the point that I was making is that I don't think so that partners from top firms can ever risk to go as over the top as the OP mentions. I am sure he ain't wanna lose anything for being a prick to intern(who almost have no compelling insecurties. i get that partnes can be subtle sexist and stuff but what she is saying is unbelivable. if we were to assume everthing coming out a female to be gospel truth, then we'll land in fairytale world.
just call out that person if you're genuine victim, because when you don't then it only makes me toward few assumption. may be it never happened or someone is making a avenge to a rude and arrogant boss, also, when you choose to not come out and call out then you're also a abuser to people who could have been prevented had you taken a stand. you indirectly give encouragement to perpetrator as he'll believe he'll get away.
you're a law student yourself, have some courage for yourself. you know that with enough evidence on your side, you can literally make this hell for that perpetrator but being silent and posting on legally india won't fullful anything.
Another Male
The partner is not only a creep, but a an extremely disturbed person. It brings me tremendous pain and genuine anger to think that a person like this walks in open day as if everything was nice and dandy. I am really sorry for you child.
You deserve better. Stay strong.
I am really sorry for you.
The most problematic thing that I can think of from my end is reaching out to her on Whatsapp, it's just easy than emails and faster too. My messages are always work-related and to the point so I think they shouldn't be an issue.
This is not "borderline creepy". It's actual creepy.
Complain to a senior woman partner at the firm. Make sure you've sent an email detailing all of this. Also say that you don't want the partner to contact you under any circumstances whatsoever.
I'm guessing that if you're 21, you're in your 3rd year. You have a year or two to go. That's long enough for there to be some distance between this incident and when you graduate.
All the best, and sending you tons of warmth and support.
I can't comment on your broader question regarding whether creepiness of this sort is common, although you do run into your fair share of dickish men at all levels, including when you're a partner. But I can imagine that you would be more susceptible to this kind of thing as someone more junior in the pecking order. If I could flip the question back to you, what could a sympathetic female partner do, to make it easier for people who go through something like this to reach out? I can't claim to have regular conversations with interns or associates - life catches up and so on - but I would want to see what I could do in a situation like this.
Another piece of advice (basis my experience). Avoid working with/ going to that firm again. I know I am going to get a lot of hate for this (that why should she stop when he is the culprit), but if you can do this, do it. Believe me, its the firm's loss, not yours.
I just hope it was not some creep from my firm.
I’m only 28 years old and I cannot imagine wanting to be friends with or dating a college going kid. I’d just feel grossed out. There is something wrong with him- he probably likes preying on younger women. An adult his age should not be interested in having any relationship with you outside of work.
The bad news is - this does happen. Especially when you’re a young unmarried woman around a lot of older male coworkers. And it’s hard to find the line between not being seen as unsociable and not being taken advantage of. Some of the things that have worked for me- just physically leaving the space when they start to get familiar- literally run away in the middle of a conversation if that’s what it takes, joking about it and saying “ oh god did you just seriously say that to an intern?”, or saying “ I’m not sure that’s work appropriate you know?”, and being the most boring human being on the earth when they start to get inappropriate. If these don’t work- you need to have a sit down chat with them where you tell them you need clearer boundaries if you are to have a collegial relationship.
Document everything that happens as much as possible. Even if the calls aren’t recorded- tell a friend what happened every time he misbehaved.
You are at the start of your career. You will meet many men like this and many better men . Do not feel beholden to this guy or anyone else. It’s not about ruining your career in its infancy. It’s about deciding that you wouldn’t want to continue working under such conditions with such people. And asking for better for yourself.
Cut off contact with him and look elsewhere. You will have better luck next time.
There's a Delhi tier 2/3 law firm office (famous for arbitrations) with very limited people in the team (most of you would know which one I am talking about). The people and especially one associate is downright creepy and often discusses personal life in office and wants to intrude in your personal life. Draw clear boundaries even if it means getting rude. It would obviously entail not getting work from the person at all or cold behaviour all of a sudden. Don't be scared and put your foot down on such behaviour. (These are my lessons from this episode which happened with me).
If it gets really bad and out of your control, talk to someone from the team whom you can trust. No internship is above your self respect. If you leave one, you'll easily get another one if not immediately then with some efforts.
On a positive side, there are people who would never do this. There are good people in the industry too who would apologize for even texting you late night for work and never ever video call you if it's not absolutely necessary.
I know of one partner who routinely does this. Don't know if he is the same one. He has never been called out publicly. This looks like it is more common than I would otherwise think.
Unfortunately, the profession circle is so small, that no matter what anyone's professional successes are, they will always be known as that person who called a partner out/fought with the boss/tarnished a firm's reputation.
Hope this changes sometimes soon, and these predators are held to account. Take care and stay strong.
In such situations, always follow following:
1. Call out their behaviour then and there only
2. Make a formal complaint
3. I can understand if you can't follow point no. 2 but there is no reason for not following point no. 1
4. Leave that workplace
In my last firm, the PA was a habitual offender and he was able to manage only because
1. Girls didn't complain
2. Those who did backed out later
But I didn't back out. I was strong enough to fight for it and the management had to take action against him.
All this while my male partner was with me. I've travelled with him at least once in a month and trust, not even once he made me feel discomfortable
Lessons learnt:
1. Not all men are same
2. Fight for your right.
Quote: Is this sort of thing very rampant? I am actually terrified of working with a male senior alone now.
Be strong girl. You are a lawyer! Put your learnings in practice and fight.
I purposely missed a few calls after that but was very much confused as they could have been about work too. But one of them was a house tour, him talking about my hair, and how “the most sensual thing about a woman is her neck”. He spoke to me a little about his past relationships, and his own life. Switched to the back camera and showed me something that was “written on his shorts”. Said he considered me a “friend”. And more such creepy bs. I think he once said something about an erection (not his). I don’t have any record of anything because he was clever enough to call and subsequently switch to video call.
Anyway, at this point I was too uncomfortable and was glad my internship period was coming to an end. I kept quiet about this even though it was borderline creepy, but I thought the wise thing to do would be to shut up and pray I don’t have to communicate or be diplomatic anymore. But it didn’t stop, he frequently texted to call him and I’d say I would but I never did. Because why? Internship over.
A few days later he proceeded to make a borderline creepy comment on my profile picture. He’s otherwise nice and helpful when at work (not to be construed as apologia, or justification). But horribly creepy outside work.
I cannot pinpoint the creepy, and I’d say it’s pretty unusual for partners to talk this much to their interns. I don’t believe in the whole call out culture on linkedin, definitely not willing to give this story a face. Is this sort of thing very rampant? I am actually terrified of working with a male senior alone now.