Firstly, that cockroach who thinks lawyers can't unionize ( or doesn't want them to), please read this link where Lawyers ASSSSOOOCCCCIIIIIIIAAAAATTTTIIIOOOONNN has filed a plea in Supreme Court.
https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/plea-supreme-court-declare-virtual-court-hearing-fundamental-right-180058

And second, formy Bhai Log I am floating the idea of association and thereafter file plea for humane working and sleeping (without disturbance of work calls and work sms) conditions for retainers.Maybe even a plea for Work from home model as Fundamental right given lawyers filing for virtual hearings as fundamental rights.

I am a T1 lawyer. Several threads / rants now on this now. Sir ji, unionise ham sab karna chahte hai. I hate working for 16 hours every day. Magar kese kare, ye bhi to batao? Whats app group banae, physical meeting karen, who will start the process, who will collect email ids/ phone numbers, who will moderate, there will have to be official contact points in all firms, etc. Kon karega ye sab? Is there a plan in place?

Idea has been floating around on threads for years now. But I never saw anyone take initiative.

For the record - if you / anyone start this, I will be happy register myself.

There is no use to this conversation thread because all are spineless and lack the guts to tell the Tier1 law firms to stop their toxic work cultures.Unionization will require a leader and one who can have a trustworthy unshakeable group backing him, who do not sell him off at the first/any instance of offer of promotion or increment, who will stay united in the fight even if that number is as small as say 20 retainers.None are going to get this union going so either switch firms to a Tier2/3 or continue to suffer at your Tier1.Tier2/3s are not that toxic because they need stability for growth,don't find replacements easily and don't pay as much as Tier1s.So make your choice but give up this unionization thing because its not gonna happen.

This guy/girl thinks they’ve reached the peak of their life just because they can format agreements correctly 😭😂 pakka frustrated SA/PA hoga. Pata hai bhai nahi hoti tumhare paas bhi koi power. Client tumhara thodi hai, neeche utar aa. Oh wait, neeche hi hoga, laptop ke samne betha hua formatting theek karta hua

Why dont associates unionize when the work is so damn inhumane? Why cant there be fixed working hours that atleast starts at 10am and ends at 8pm? With weekends off. Why cant this minimal be negotiated for.

Genuine question? It has caused a cardiac arrest, we know the story and dont know how many mental health issues. Unionization is the answer

Attrition, attrition everywhere! Rise and assert your rights! If nothing else, ask for the 33% inflation adjustment in salary since 2015. Law firms hourly rates have increased 55% in the meantime, you know!

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/more-pain-for-cognizant-as-attrition-set-to-spike-again-this-quarter-7241201.html

Hi my dudes - a couple of clarifications.

a. Tier 1 law firm associates don't make a lot compared to even other intermediaries on any given deal team. The dudes that are screaming entitlement really have no idea what the current pay scale regime is for our kinda qualified work. Even with the consultants tax breaks we make nothing for what our contemporaries make on a global scale (adjusted for currency/ buying power and the works). While yes, we are not splitting an atoms or doing any cutting edge work(loved it when partners coming in for day zero use to talk about firm life as something out of a gatsby novel + blade runner), we are doing a lot of work with a lot of hours and with heavy qualification built over years of doing something. Market forces on a global level already show that our salary structures have us pegged at the far back end.

b. I have been screaming unionisation (or association for that one cockroach who somehow thinks lawyers can't unionise) for years. Since the 3rd day of working at a firm. People are running around scared shitless at firms, no one has any sense of timelines, natural expectations to deliver on ungodly hours to bankers who by the way usually have zero value add on the transaction/ documentation aspect of things. to all naysayers - historically every group that dreamed of unionising had jerks off like you cream entitlement and the works. History is going to forget you as fast as i can type up this post.

c. Also lets not even talk about demand and supply here - its nauseating to see lawyers do so. Its just sad how sorry your analysis of market forces are that you somehow think dictates pay structure of corporate lawyers in India.

d. some guy said that the number of people willing to work for the same salary in 2015 is the same as 2021 - i am sorry but have you noticed the sheer scale movement in quality talent that you are retaining. My team at SAM has hired 11 A0s when all we need is 3 good A3s or A4s. There is absolutely no supply of quality. Yes enough A0s out there for a mediocre orgy - but nothing to relieve the deal teams of workload pressure . (no pun intended)

e. Also the sad part is that people who scream of entitlement or hatred for people who want to speak out are simply scared. I know 2 SAs in my team just like this and they have no idea of what to do outside of this system. This system that wants you checking your phone from 7Am in the morning and responding to emails till its 1AM. Dont pay any attention to these people. I think they need to throw away that token ayan rand book and go out on a 2 week holiday to some nice village on the hills and calm down. Sorry - these people never take holidays cause they are scared to piss of their own incompetent senior who thinks holidays are for the entitled.

Lodhi Garden Chit Chat Aunties Associations can make "demands" to Government for better gardens for better chit chat venue, just as lawyer-employee can unionize or associate for "demands".Ever heard of a temp-employee union making demands of an employer/employers?Heard of taxi union making demands to Government?Heard of Advocates association making demand to Courts?Heard of unregistered unions and associations? These are all associations. Glad to be here anywhere as long as bot around you.You really should read the Constitution.

Lodhi Gardens Aunties Chit Chat Association is also an "association" and thereby a "union" as per your logic. The point of this post is unionisation to 'demand' better pay or whatever rubbish OP talked about. How will you demand if you are not a union in the correct sense OP spoke of? You've failed to even grasp basics with your ham handed response. Quite obvio y you and your ilk are where they are in life.

It's not decision time it's action time.All this unionization will take time,right now some companies are hiring laterals so make the most of this time, update the CV and make the jump hoping that you land at a better place than before.All this time spent in union businesses is a waste compared to the smart move of increasing salaries by moving firms.

If people really want to base their argument on demand and supply, open up the law firm market to globalization. Let foreign law firms come in, then we'll see where demand and supply leads. You cannot run an oligopoly of 5-6 firms and then say market is determining the compensation.

Petition for entry of foreign law in India to whoever becomes the new Law Min after RSP is out after cabinet reshuffle. Manan Mishra may lose his control over BCI if RSP goes out.

Let demand and supply operate for a free market.But the domestic law firms moreso some lalaji law firms who specialize in lobbyinghave made sure that foreign law firms are not allowed.lets not lecture on demand and supply of lawyers determining remunerations because those market dynamics are being manipulated by law firm lobby.

babe, you need a reality check. We're literally in the middle of unprecedented, all-time high unemployment rates, and you really think saying something like the younger generation has the "most opportunities" is accurate? Maybe you need to take a look at what's going on in the real world.

I have switched two firms since 2015, both Tier 1, and both have increased hourly rates by up to 50-75USD at the lowest level, and around 100 at the EP level. Keep in mind that the dollar value has sharply risen since 2015 as well, so even without that raise it would be a significantly higher amount per hour per associate.

Price undercutting mostly happens in blended rates and capped fee matters, so it's not relevant to this discussion.

To every "2nd sem mein eco padha tha" economist on this thread; here are a few things that are justified based on demand and supply:

- bonded labour - manual scavenging - child labour - the plight of housewife mothers - safety hazards for workers in factories - people dying during COVID due lack of oxygen supply - millions of people going to hungry every single day.

Just because it may be rationalized by demand and supply does not mean it is right. If free market was indeed a dream reality, then associates would have been able to organize into one union and "demand" higher wages immediately - no firm in the country can replace its entire pool of existing associates, SAs and PAs. But that is not possible because of apparent "retainership models" where people aren't employees and "ethical codes" by which advocates cannot do strikes/lock-outs.

So, if the people working for you are abiding by those "ethical codes" there is no reason why you cannot be "ethical" increasing their compensation with increase in your own revenues - or at the very least, adjust for inflation (also an 'economics' term, you see).

Further, it has been proven through multiple studies in HRM that making people work 14 hours for 7 days a week only hurts your business in the long run. At the end of this pandemic, firms will be left with a bunch of brain-dead, demotivated, depressed zombies who don't give two ducks about the work you allot them - and this includes SAs, PAs and Partners. And those are scare commodities you cannot replace.

I mean that’s the shocking thing in all of this right? These lawyers work day in and day out to make sure the companies they represent get away with murder. With polluting our air and water, with paying real blue collar labourers as little as possible, with evading as much tax as they can get away with. And they do this all while quoting Adam smith and wealth of nations. They justify their own affluence by claiming they’ve earned it through merit ignoring the class and caste privilege that put them there. They’re quite shameless about their conspicuous consumption. But the moment all that capitalism stops working for them personally - they’re all about new labour movements and work life balance and socialism for me and capitalism for thee.

Labour movements are about those at the bottom of the hierarchy asking to be treated like humans. Not entitled kids earning more than
Any generation before them asking to be babied.

Name the undercutting Tier1 firms if sure.It might surprise you to realise that their client list and client billings have increased manifold for many clients (maybe even all). But they put out misinformation of overall decline because they don't want to share the profits.If billings had nit increases would you see such associate and partner promotions at all?All this BS is told to associates as excuses come bonus and appraisal time.

Associates can't really go on strikes. They aren't employees. Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't go for work, the firm is perfectly within its rights to give your job to someone else. And there are plenty of people who would accept it on the same terms or even worse. That's the biggest problem with regard to law firm associates' bargaining power.

Bhai sarkari naukri nahi hai. you want them to give you exit options too. bwahahahahah.
You are a legal professional. Work Hours are bad across the globe. You make shit ton for your age, so save well, don't blow it on petty things, and you'd be able to retire or open up your own shop earlier where you can dictate your own work hours and make life miserable for your juniors. Till then don't crib about such things. Its bad for everyone. Tu akela nahi hai.

This is a rather socialist argument. The cost of entrepreneurship is borne by the promoters (which would include founders and equity partners), and the rewards are also received by them. Retainers are an expense item on the balance sheet, the profit pool for equity holders is what matters. You can imagine the perspective of the equity holders, as is the case with any business, would be to maximize the value that flows to them. In that scenario, improvement in earnings would flow, to the extent controllable, to the equity holders. Why will the equity holders want to increase the expense base higher than they absolutely need to? It's basic demand and supply.

It feels bad, perhaps, to be viewed as an expense item and not part of a family that is looking out for you. A lot of us have had the experience, up to and during university, to have been part of systems that are focused on our welfare. For example, during pre-school, school and university, the entire system you interact is theoretically established for your welfare. However, this is not the case once you leave education and move into the employment market. No one is going to give you more than they absolutely have to. If they think you are adding more value than you cost, and they want to retain and develop you, you get promoted. As simple as that. This reality can be jarring, knowing and experiencing the statistically low probability of your smooth upward movement.

You can blame a variety of factors for the ratio of promoted vs non-promoted being highly skewed, but it does boil down to demand and supply. The number of people willing to work for the money that was offered in 2015 is still the same or even more in 2021. Therefore, base pays do not move up. After working for several years if the pay is stagnant, maybe it's because there are too many people trying to move around and find a fit in a very small market.

Just to add, I am neither a partner nor in a law firm.

I have always thought this strike calling and bandh by Labour unions was just political gimmicks.But I get it now.If associates ask for increments,decent working hours they get branded as "entitled by the likes of these greedy promoters and partners.Unless a day comes when clients want deliverables and associates refuse to work i e strike, only then will they stop calling associates"entitled" for basic demands.Time to decide once for all- either unionize and get basic standards set for salaries,retainers,working hours and if these are not set associates across firns should go on strike Or just give up any expectations of change at all.No point of endless talk achieving nothing.

Saladin Ahmed (@saladinahmed) Tweeted:
unpopular opinion the best thing young people can do early in their careers is to organize against the exploitation of their labor https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/status/1403893007838072835?s=20

Haven't the firms increased their billing rates since 2015? Is there a single firms that's billing their A0s out to clients at 2015 rates? If they have billed them out at higher rates, that means they've added value? Why should it proportionally not flow down to them. OP isn't asking for them to be given a promotion. They're asking where are the corresponding pay hikes while firms continue to bill at a higher rate, earn more. If nothing else, that's how basic inflation works. A0s in the US haven't suddenly become productive. They're simply getting pay hikes every 2-3 years because firms are billing them out at higher rates and they're getting a corresponding rise in their remuneration.

Also, don't give me the bills get discounted because they were discounted in 2015 too.

Reasonable Remuneration is simply determined by market forces.

Demand and supply.

Not whims and fancies.

Increased remuneration is by adding value.

Just because you work 80 hour weeks doesn't mean that you will get paid more for it. You can hope it does, you can wish but it wouldn't.

So get off this high horse of empty expectations and actually do something about it.

If you don't have the capability, then build it but just hoping some magic fairy will come and change your remuneration won't work.

Lol that generalisation might work for the socio economic history of America but cannot be said to hold true for India at all. The youngest generation has grown up with the most resources and the most support and the most opportunities compared to every previous one. Step out of your Instagram bubble and join the rest of us in the real world.
Oh and I was born in the nineties.

This is what is wrong with most commercial lawyers,especially the young kids, that they carry with them, this false sense of entitlement.

I mean most commercial lawyers don't want to assume any risk and want Disproportionate rewards.

If you feel you are underpaid, life is tough on you, start your own damn practice.

It's very simple, if you want a fixed cushy retainer without any assumption of risk, then you are simply a replaceable asset. Demand and supply dictate your remuneration.

If you want disproportionate rewards, take a risk, develop clients, bring some business whether in a firm or outside of it and automatically you will see both your self esteem and bank balance rise.

Yes Kian, could you please consider doing a couple of stories on this. Reach out to the law firm partners and ask them about the hikes in global market (current and in recent times since 2015)? Even if it leads to nothing, not only will we all owe you big time, I personally will definitely subscribe to you (and I'm sure many of our ilk would) if you're doing this kind of pronging which associates obviously can't...

They won't pay you any more. What are you gonna do exactly? You've got zero bargaining power, with plenty of people waiting take your place. Why would a businessman pay you more when he can get the same work done by others for less? That's what the law firm owners are first and foremost, businessmen. And you are disposable assets.

Kian, could you consider asking the Partners why they have not considered any hike since 2015, especially in light of the current hikes in the US? Even in India, YoY profits, billing rates and business has only increased and covid has only led to lower costs and similar or more business, except for probably Disputes Teams. I remember they all made some very grand statements in 2015 on why the pie shouldn't go down to everyone when firms are increasingly making more money. The corp fraternity will owe you big time.

Advocates can form a union,it's just not called trade union or Union or sonething lije that , it's called Association.Ever read the Constitution of India?Hear or read of the right to freedom of association? It's a constitutional right.Its nonsensical faff like this of the partners and promoters of law firms in the first place thats driving Associates crazy.Maybe if these faffers were made to brush up their law they'd probably indulge in less unlawful torture of their associates and then associates would not need to firm ASSOCIATION, which is also a UNION, also allowed for legal professionals...........So much for your "research" skills.

Looks like you are quite unaware of life outside whatever bubble of whichever law firm you are at. Several law firms (be it Tiers 1, 2, 3, 20 etc.) receive applications from good hardworking kids who are even willing to work for free. Instead of wasting time on LI writing with your unrealistic proposals, either work better at your existing job or look for a new one if you are so dissatisfied.

Also, have you even bothered to check if Advocates can unionise? If you did, you would realise that they cannot. So much for your research skills. It becomes evident why you say what you do.

Let's first get something going on basics,if we demand too much getting anything becomes impossible. Like decent work hours of 8-10 hours maybe 11 hours with decent time breaks ( lunch ,switch off) and atleast two non working weekends in a month, better or humane treatment from seniors and a much needed increase in fixed salaries that have become stagnant from the last 10 years.

OK, the initial pay in tier 1's far outnumber those of engineers, even in from IIT's working in MNC's, the big law pay is just too high. Added to these are low taxes, and no stock component which actually forms a major chunk of the latter's pay
The pay has been lowered across industries, many have been shown the door.

I mean some of this language is getting offensive. Slaves ? Really? I’d like to see a single slave who made that much money. I’d like to see a slave that could put in their papers and leave.

You’re getting paid that much because it’s boring mindless work. If it were fun and interesting and spiritually fulfilling- you’d be paid a lot less than you deserve - you know like artists and teachers and people in public service. What about this trade off is news to you guys?

If you hate work so much give up on the money and go do your own thing. You can’t in one thread gloat about how much money you make, what kinds of watches you buy, where you go to vacation and what your investments are- and in the next thread claim you’re freaking slaves. If you can’t see the problem in that you’re delusional.

You’re not asking for “humane” working conditions. Children making your cigarettes and Chinese people making your apple products are asking for humane working conditions. You know - light, air, payment of their minimal wages, not dying, breaks to drink water/ pee/eat some food. You are asking for fucking branded headphones, therapists, even more money than the obscene amounts you make for work that a computer could do, more time to go on vacations blah. Oh Covid was bad for you? You wanna work from home forever? Tell that to the cook/household help/ driver who lost his job because of it.

The reason you don’t get paid as much as skilled engineers do is because the guy who is working at google has skills you don’t. He’s not easily replaceable and his job isn’t to do the same thing day in and day out. Most of you corporate fat cats have next to zero actual legal skills. It’s embarrassing. And that’s why you never get promoted. In my batch the only people who even made SA on time were people who sincerely enjoyed corporate law. Folks who just did it for money just move from one firm to another without getting a pay hike or a promotion. There’s a reason for that- the former are better at their jobs.

Yall need to stop whining / people in the world are dealing with real ducking problems. You’re embarrassing literally every decent lawyer out there. If you’ve not seen a pay hike/ better work/ promotions/ more flexibility with your work- it’s cause you’ve not earned it by proving yourself capable.

Lawyers have been reduced to worse than labour standards,this is because of the long monopoly of some fossil age firms.The other newer firms actually bother to try and retain people because they got to catch up with uncle firms. The one direct way things will get better for lawyers in their own is if foreign firms are allowed, because every single domestic law firm, family run or professional managements, will now have to look at lawyers as talent pool and accord some respect to resources.Then when you get some izzat at the desk, whether through union or your own talent, that you can bargain or negotiate for human work hours and better pay.

Full support to the post by Law Reagan. Anyone who is going to comment on this thread with something like "you are so entitled", "please leave the law firm" - please introspect into your life. Does anyone really love you? Your wife/girlfriend (if you have one) or your kid. How many friends from college would actually be glad to see you? Does anyone in your family think you are a real lawyer whom they can consult for their legal troubles? Or they just know you as someone who doesn't turn for anything anymore because he is working at a job which does not impact anyone anyway?

To reiterate something humans knew for thousands of years but have forgotten in recent years: You are here for a very very short span of time in the course of history. If you are lucky you will live for 2600 weeks more. Your only purpose here was to live. Unfortunately, we built a world where we have to pay to live. That is why we work. To "earn a living". Earn a living so that we can LIVE! Not kill yourself so that you can earn.

The phrase 'work-life' balance is in itself a sad phrase. It was supposed to be just 'life' - within which you can balance in some work.

If you still think people working anything more than 8 hours is 'hard-work', you are really not as intelligent as you think you are.

This is such an incredibly relevant post. It's up to lawyers like us to ensure that our rights as workers are maintained. I have only ever heard horror stories about SAs in law firms. I also hope that instead of people replying with "Oh i have also worked for so-and-so hours" recognize that others should not be expected to go to that amount of extremities just because they experienced it first.

Summarizing the demands from various threads so far:

- Increase in fixed salary and bonus. NLUs deserve equal to or greater than IIM, ISB etc.
- Reduce number of designations and promote faster; make salaried partners in 8 years; start sharing equity in 12 years
- Each newly made partner to get 5 clients from promoters to develop rainmaking skills
- WFH till end of covid or till 90% Indians are vaccinated, which is earlier
- Max 10 hours work per day; 10 hours includes 30 mins lunch break, 2 x 10 mins switch off break; 5 mins song / cig break every hour
- Max 5 days per week; Weekends should be off
- Relax billable targets; bonus should be given irrespective of whether target is reached
- Hardship allowance for mindless tasks such as DD
- Interest free loans so that we can buy a house and reach financial independence faster
- Monthly workshops on good exit options such as in-house, UPSC, judiciary etc.
- latest laptop (preferably gaming laptop so we can also play CS on weekends)
- sony 1000xm4 headphones, herman miller chair and an oak wood desk
- One time bonus of 2 lakhs to buy branded clothes and bags because people in Tier-1 firms are shallow and we wouldn't do such wasteful spending otherwise
- 1 therapist per team to counter mental health issues
- 1 dietician per team to ensure healthy eating habits
- Monthly workshops on how to invest well, make a good passive income and get out of the firm fast

Please add...

Why do Associates not Unionize? There have been multiple posts regarding the increasingly terrible working conditions in all Tiers of law firms, especially Tier 1. The common retort is that Associates have no bargaining power as the supply is extremely high and if you want livable/reasonable/better working conditions, please leave as there are 100s waiting to take your space as the cog in this law firm machine. These are exactly the kind of conditions that require a union to increase bargaining power against the group of promoters because it is clear that a single associate or even a single partner, if there ever is one who's interested in improving work-life situation, can barely do anything.

I'm highlighting some of the points on the treatment of associates by the promoters/Big 6 Law Firms which have previously been raised on LI as well to look at how the conditions are, please add and please mention how we can concretize a plan to do something! Have a plan you can't share publicly or want to join the effort and keep getting updated if we are forming a core group? Mail me at lawreagan@protonmail.com

1. Money: First things first, we're all doing this for the money. Obviously it's not passion which makes us do mindles DDs for all our waking hours. Yet, for the last 5 years there has been barely any increase. Starting salaries have been stagnant. This does not reflect the global market in any way. As someone has said previously on another thread, business has continued to increase/improves in the 2010s even if it may not be a boom like the 2000s. Promoters have simply not passed on the pie to the lower ranks or even to partners in the family run firms. In terms of global market itself, one only has to look at the US salary increases that are currently taking place across almost all firms which are matching and re-matching the increases.

2. Covid: It's terrible, even Indian consulting/tech firms do better. Did any of the law firms help in the move from WFH? Our colleagues in consulting make similar amounts yet the firms went headfirst trying to improve conditions by comp-ing for new desks, chairs, headphones. Law Firms have only cribbed (except for one which gave a covid bonus) about how they are losing money when they have actually been making more profits, buying flats, starting overseas offices!

3. Basic HR: There is no HR, treatment of associates by Partners is terrible and beyond what one would expect in any reasonable workspace. Our Employment Teams would not be able to defend the kind of treatment meted out to us if one of their clients was doing it! You're considered lucky if you've a partner who treats you like a human being and doesn't break your mental health. Just look at the number of people who've had to go to therapy because of office issues as mentioned on another thread. Does a single firm even think about offering therapy, forget trying to improve conditions which would not lead to such breakdowns? The HR is instead hell bent on killing their resource, KCO is planning to start transitioning to physical office when transactional work doesn't even require this move, while many of our families and our kids are still unvaccinated, when the third wave is supposed to be cruel to our kids! Did they consult anyone before announcing this move? Would any workspace with a strong union dare to announce such a move without consulting their workers and their representatives?

There are clearly so many more reasons and places where law firms need to do better for their associates, even to improve not just working conditions, but even the quality of work and even benefit themselves! None of the so-called Tier 1 firms have a good training program, any useful knowledge management team or systems. Multiple associates spend multiple hours reinventing the wheel on work that has already been done across the office due to useless KM teams and no KM software. Hell, some do not even have simple OCR softwares to sift through the files.

What are we doing? Why should we not join together and demand better working conditions? What are more reasons that we need to unionize, please highlight how law firms have been treating their human resource in ways they would never if there was a strong union. Clearly, there's one at the level of promoters who seem to have entered into unspoken agreements to not enter into wage hike wars and make more moolah every year to buy that another flat.