Is law experience in India relevant if one wants to move abroad? Do they consider it? I am confused about whether to start the process now or after getting 2 years of experience.
Can anyone give me clarity on whether we Need WES or just NCA is sufficient for express entry route? Also in which category does our 5 years BALLB fall? Like- category 1- masters or professional degree or category 2- bachelor's degree. Reason why i am asking is that WES considers our course as a 4year course than 5 year course and categorises it as a bachelor's degree rather than professional degree. Where as on Canadian immigration website we have seperate option for bachelor degree OR masters and professional degree. Reason i am asking this is that it will affect the CRS score.
US LLM would be between 40 and 50 lakhs. At least from the well-known universities. You can try for scholarships, since most of these universities also have standalone scholarships apart from the common ones like Fulbright. UK LLM costs around half in comparison.
I would add that if you do get a job in Singapore, take it- particularly if it is with an international law firm (US or Magic/Silver Circle). Once you're in SG for a couple of years and get absorbed into the international qualification scale; you can then look at transfers within your firm or another international law firm into London/New York. The downside of moving jurisdictions as an Indian lawyer under this route (US LLM-New York qualification) is that any experience gained at Indian law firms will be completely cut- you will start at NQ. But you earn ten times what you will earn in India, so I guess it pans out.
Unfortunately, Singapore/Middle East do not offer citizenships easily, but they have very very low tax rates.
What is the approximate expenditure one would have to incur to pursue an LLM in the US? Also, how does it compare with the expenditure for a JD in Canada? I understand that these answers would be very university-specific- I'm just looking for a ballpark figure for comparison.
Also, are there any major advantages of one over the other? I have often seen people come back to India after doing LLMs in the US. Does that reflect that it is relatively harder to settle over there, in terms of finding job opportunities? Alternately, would prior experience in a firm in India bolster one's chances of getting into Big Law in Canada via the NCA route?
Hi, thank you for your comments. Very informative! I have an additional query, what kind of salary is someone who goes through the NCA route looking at when he/she joins a small law office? I'm trying to understand my situation there if I immigrate. Will it be enough to live a decent life? Please add anything else you feel I should know. The opportunity cost, as well as the actual cost of a JD seem very prohibitive to me so I'm not inclined towards it. Thank you!
You’re getting a decent education at a fraction of the price you would pay at an equivalent college abroad. Let’s postulate that the teaching quality of NLS Bangalore is analogous to, say, Cardiff University in the UK. They pay about £10,000 in tuition which is about ₹10 lacs….how much does NLS charge?
How about Asian countries like Japan? I want to Pursue an LLM from Japan and want to try getting into a foreign law firm or MNC. I have 10+ years of experience but only conversational Japanese language skill.
Is Australia a good choice as well? I've heard that getting PR (permanent residency) there is easier. Can anyone explain the process and whether it is worth it compared to the US/Canada. Any Universities in particular to aim for?
That's how state education began in the Anglophone world, capital expenditure and token grant in aid and then schooling was gradually taken over by the gov't. The model remains in use for higher education.
By your metric, because the Brits pay £9,000 per annum their gov't doesn't subsidise their education.
Quote:
If this were not the case, then the state could claim to subsidize my education even prior to paying for buildings etc. because they built the road which I used to reach the building.
This is basic stuff. Roads are paid for (largely*) by the general public and used by the general public and, barring a few, all of them are accessible to the general public. The general public doesn't get to walk in and demand a degree from the NLUs.
No, it does not. It is capital investment by the state. The state can bloody well demand the building back. Case in point, Jharkhand's suit against NUSRL, Ranchi. This is precisely the reason why state government after state government offers to make 'capital grants' and not undertake 'recurring expenses' of the institution. Subsidy, in the substantive sense for education, is when the state covers more than capital costs of the project.
If this were not the case, then the state could claim to subsidize my education even prior to paying for buildings etc. because they built the road which I used to reach the building.
while doing SQE is not that difficult (there are lot of coaching institutions who provide decent study materials, costly but effective) getting a job is.
Unlike say the NHS trusts which have capacity to absorb foreign qualified doctors after qualifying exams like PLAB/MPT, law does not have a centralised system for talent acquisition. So, you would have to do jugaad and search for jobs one firm at a time or use one of the aggregators (rollonfriday/indeed). Unless you have prior contacts in the profession in the UK it will be difficult to have a smooth transition from India to the UK as a practising lawyer. Please do not do LLM in the UK if you intend to be a practising lawyer in the UK. It is better to enrol in a SQE coaching centre online.
I once did back-of-the-envelope calculations when I was still in college and realised that the fees from the students just about covered the salary of the professors and not much was left for capital and non-recurring expenditures.
So, I did a quick google search (it took 5 minutes - and yes, I am free right now) and the numbers are all publicly available.
The college even today hardly has any money left after paying its staff. It weirdly takes pride in not receiving any "maintaining expenditure" from the UGC [see Para 19 of this judgment: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/180877490/]. I checked the latest budget and the difference between the income from the fees charged to the students minus salary of staff and utilities (water + electricity + internet) is ~INR 75L - that's not much for an institution and certainty leaves little for capital expenditure. I am not even accounting for the many other expenditures which would naturally arise. Another interesting piece is the absence of interest payments - which would indicate that the college didn't build its infrastructure by taking credit / loans.
The newer buildings: the moot court hall, auditorium, library, administrative block, second mess, badminton court, etc., the college couldn't have constructed them without Government / UGC grants. The grants released by the UGC are also publicly available. The annual reports for 2011-2012 and 2013-14 set out the amounts released to the college by the UGC - I reckon a fair amount of the newer construction took place from these grants.
So, you see, your education is also being subsidized by the Government.
If anything this is unfair, given that the typical student profile in most National Law Universities is upper middle class and upper class. The annual per capita income (accounting for the Indian billionaires) is INR 1.25L - and 99% of the students of NLUs can afford 1.25L, either directly or by accessing credit. I would reckon (and this is an admittedly anecdotal guess) 90% of the students spent more money in a year than the annual per capita income.
Go abroad on a visitors visa. Find someone you can marry. Marry. Get spouse based residency. Oh and remember to visit the local temples/ gurudwaras on their social meet days. Be on the lookout for the professional matchmakers. Now choose which country you want. Much better than slumming it out in India anyways. I like my life in Amreeka!! Good luck!
As you rightly pointed out, Dubai is not a citizenship option. Neither is Singapore, practically speaking though it is theoretically possible.
This brings you to UK, USA and/or Canada. It is easiest to get into the former two, but the latter provides the best standard of living. Read, speak to people, and take a call - these are all good options.
Go to a top US law school for an LLM, become NY qualified and get a job with a firm in NY, rest of the US, London (including British firms that hire for their US capabilities in London, such as A&O and Links) or Singapore. It's a fairly straightforward route and has worked for people in the past.
Another option is to do the California Bar qualification - you do not need a US LLM, and being qualified in a foreign jurisdiction is enough to make you eligible. They have a very long drawn moral character assessment process, so the day you decide to do it and the day you manage to do it may well be a year or more apart. The other option is the England and Wales qualification through the SQE route (since the QLTS is being phased out). Both the California and E&W route have not been tested (as far as I know) to get a job abroad, but they could potentially swing things for you (especially if visa regimes are liberalised for Indians, such as potentially discussed between Boris and Modi).
Singapore (especially on the capital markets front) and Dubai are also options for Indian lawyers to move to laterally. Both offer benefits of remaining relatively close to home whilst also being abroad. Downside is that citizenship in Dubai will never happen, so you will continue as an NRI for the future. Don't know about the citizenship regime in Singapore.
Since this thread has such great info, what are the options for lawyers already practicing for a few years and now undergoing existential crisis? If one has an LLM and does not wish to waste more time and planning to bank on experience, my understanding is other than NCA there isn't another option. I have heard if you have done the QLTS that also helps with Canadian law firms in terms of qualification equivalency ..
Yes - very significant ones. For instance, the big law firms in India - which give you a start at Rs 12 lakh+/annum only go to 8/10 law schools at best. Sometimes it is even difficult for people from other smaller institutions - outside the NLU circuit + DU/GLC etc. - to get internships with them. Similarly, big Canadian firms which will give you a starting package of CAD 100,000/annum will not consider you without a JD.
When I said that "it is absolutely possible for one to get into a top law firm via this method as well," I was speaking of an academically exceptional candidate, with the right people/soft skills, getting incredibly lucky. I have seen it happen with at least 2 people, but both had LLMs from the US after LLB from India as well as some transactional experience.
On the other hand, 7 of 10 JD graduates from a good school will walk into Bay Street firms. You have to pay for the JD (but there are loan options) and you have to spend 3 years in law school again. But that is the opportunity cost which the other poster has chosen as his name on this thread.
Even at the Articleship stage - which may otherwise feel most daunting (esp. if you are coming in via NCA) - there are programs to give you a helping hand. The most difficult thing about getting an articling job is not knowing anyone and not carrying the name of an institution with you. To overcome this, kindly see Ryerson's Law practice program (LPP):
Bottomline is that if you wish to come to make a life in Canada, there are multiple avenues and multiple opportunities down each of them. You just need to do the research at your end to figure out what suits you best.
a) This can be done via pursuing a JD at A Canadian institution. LSAT + CGPA + writing samples + LoRs are needed.
b) Alternatively, you may gain equivalency via NCA. They will ask you to clear additional exams specific to Canadian set up. You'll have to do atleast four. You may do these while in India itself.
2. Thereafter, you'll need to clear the Bar exam. There is a separate exam for barristers and solicitors.
3. Finally, you'll need to take up articleshow Canada. This is easiest to get if you studied at a Canadian institution.
...
Now regarding your specific question. You can not practice law in Canada after a LLM.
However, certain schools (UBC, UoT, Osgoode) have now begun offering Professional LLMs for foreign trained lawyers. These serve as fulfilling NCA equivalency requirements. So, you could go the PRO-LLM + Bar + Articleship route. It is absolutely possible for one to get into a top law firm via this method as well.
"These students are required to repay the loan portion of their funding during the 10 years following graduation, only if their income is sufficient. If their income falls below a predetermined threshold in a particular year, the loan repayment for that year may be forgiven in whole or in part."
Other law schools have similar options. The program is available to both domestic and international students. The chances of showing 'need' among international students is higher due to steep exchange rates that many of them face.
Thank you for the clarification moderator. I did not mean to ruffle any feathers. I was merely going by globally accepted HDIs. Apologies if it came across as disparaging.
While downvotes are definitely not scientific (and sometimes accidental), so please don't take them personally, in this case it's conceivable certain readers might have objected to the opinion that a life in Canada is better than in India.
I wrote the above post: gave my opinion respectfully, provided some facts from my engagement with the system in question, and offered to help further if needed.
My comment was specifically about the career prospects of an NCA lawyer and not about the desirability of immigrating to Canada. BigLaw avoids hiring NCA lawyers, for multiple reasons, most of which are intuitive. The reasons are as follow:
-Domestic students from Canada opting for foreign degrees are usually those who cannot make it to a Canadian Law School, thus raising doubts about the competency of those who do not have non Canadian legal education in general. Is it fair? Probably not, but when you consider the fact that Australian unis like Bond have courses designed specifically for Canadian students who cannot make it into a law school there makes it justifiably suspect in the eyes of employers.
-Lack of familiarity with Indian Legal Education. This one should be fairly self-explanatory. Employers in Canada do not know anything about legal education in India. They cannot differentiate NLS from LPU, and you could see why that would reduce the employability of NCA lawyers in Canada.
-Lack of access to the formal hiring system. Most Canadian firms offer articling contracts to their 2L Summer Students. If you are out of this system of hiring, your opportunities reduce drastically, simply because firms wish to hire the best talent straight out of law school and fill all their slots accordingly.
Now, am I saying no one with an Indian Legal Education and with NCA Status has ever made a good career for themselves in Big Law? Absolutely not. The odds, however, are stacked against you, especially in the absence of any local contacts who can vouch for you. The high levels of immigration into Canada by lawyers in private practice from India has virtually made it impossible for firms to screen good candidates from bad ones, and so if you are sure about wanting to live in Canada, I would stick to my advice of getting a JD.
Sorry for any grammatical mistakes and hope this post is of some help.
@opportunity cost is right. You can get into the Canadian legal system via the NCA. However, if you can afford to do a JD from a Canadian law school (most will have 0% loan options for a select few candidates, eg IGLP @Osgoode), then you get launched into the market as a product of their system. This way you get to take the elevator into Big Law on Bay Street (the main place where you'll find all big law firms of Toronto).
In sum, do the NCA and get out. You'll still have a better life than in India. However, if big law corporate practice is your dream, then do a JD.
If you do go via the JD option, you'll have to take the LSAT. The best schools will give you offer if you can score a 80 percentile and had a CGPA of 3.7/4. Any better and you can count yourself in running for the loan program.
I can go on if people come up with specific questions.
How was it subsidized? Why should anyone from the minority communities remain (of given an option)? Infact, why should anyone not fitting the 'good Hindu' vision of thugs ruling is remain?
I am hearing that for the first time. Sure, you can make more money in NY than Toronto but in Toronto you can save more and afford a better lifestyle. Also, every American international law firm worth its name has active presence in Canada and there are some good Canadian firms too. US is always a great option but not the only option out there and with the unpredictability around their work visas, I would say Canada and Australia with their PR are a lot better choice.
NCA lawyers are universally looked down upon. Ready to work for a small time criminal law or family law practice? Go ahead. Want to work on BayStreet in BigLaw? Pursue a JD.
Canada is another option. Apply for NCA right now as the conversion of your degree takes more than 6 months. After that, you need to give the bar exam. Ideally, you should be stepping on Canadian shores to directly write the Bar exam and apply for articleship position in advance so no time is wasted. Once you are licensed, you network, you apply through job portals and headhunters till you find something good.
Hey, was just wondering about the avenues that are available to Indian lawyers to move out of the country after graduation. I'm aware of the Magic Circle route, but could someone please throw some light on the other routes?
Also in which category does our 5 years BALLB fall? Like- category 1- masters or professional degree or category 2- bachelor's degree.
Reason why i am asking is that WES considers our course as a 4year course than 5 year course and categorises it as a bachelor's degree rather than professional degree. Where as on Canadian immigration website we have seperate option for bachelor degree OR masters and professional degree.
Reason i am asking this is that it will affect the CRS score.
I would add that if you do get a job in Singapore, take it- particularly if it is with an international law firm (US or Magic/Silver Circle). Once you're in SG for a couple of years and get absorbed into the international qualification scale; you can then look at transfers within your firm or another international law firm into London/New York. The downside of moving jurisdictions as an Indian lawyer under this route (US LLM-New York qualification) is that any experience gained at Indian law firms will be completely cut- you will start at NQ. But you earn ten times what you will earn in India, so I guess it pans out.
Unfortunately, Singapore/Middle East do not offer citizenships easily, but they have very very low tax rates.
Also, are there any major advantages of one over the other? I have often seen people come back to India after doing LLMs in the US. Does that reflect that it is relatively harder to settle over there, in terms of finding job opportunities? Alternately, would prior experience in a firm in India bolster one's chances of getting into Big Law in Canada via the NCA route?
Any other modes of entering the Australian legal market?
You are probably not aware that, during its initial days, it was the patronage of Ashok Ghelot (Congress) that got NLU Jodhpur off the ground.
That's some mental gymnastics.
That's how state education began in the Anglophone world, capital expenditure and token grant in aid and then schooling was gradually taken over by the gov't. The model remains in use for higher education.
By your metric, because the Brits pay £9,000 per annum their gov't doesn't subsidise their education.
Quote: This is basic stuff. Roads are paid for (largely*) by the general public and used by the general public and, barring a few, all of them are accessible to the general public. The general public doesn't get to walk in and demand a degree from the NLUs.
* Since 2008-09, direct taxes have consistently contributed more than 50% to the govt’s total tax revenues with the exception of 2016-17. Plus the burden is inordinately borne by Maharashtra: https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis/story/asindia-aims-for-5-trillion-economy-direct-tax-data-show-wealth-concentrated-in-3-states1610818-2019-10-23
I've got a decade of litigation experience and am considering a move. Have put off my LL.M. all these years.
If this were not the case, then the state could claim to subsidize my education even prior to paying for buildings etc. because they built the road which I used to reach the building.
while doing SQE is not that difficult (there are lot of coaching institutions who provide decent study materials, costly but effective) getting a job is.
Unlike say the NHS trusts which have capacity to absorb foreign qualified doctors after qualifying exams like PLAB/MPT, law does not have a centralised system for talent acquisition. So, you would have to do jugaad and search for jobs one firm at a time or use one of the aggregators (rollonfriday/indeed). Unless you have prior contacts in the profession in the UK it will be difficult to have a smooth transition from India to the UK as a practising lawyer. Please do not do LLM in the UK if you intend to be a practising lawyer in the UK. It is better to enrol in a SQE coaching centre online.
I once did back-of-the-envelope calculations when I was still in college and realised that the fees from the students just about covered the salary of the professors and not much was left for capital and non-recurring expenditures.
So, I did a quick google search (it took 5 minutes - and yes, I am free right now) and the numbers are all publicly available.
The college even today hardly has any money left after paying its staff. It weirdly takes pride in not receiving any "maintaining expenditure" from the UGC [see Para 19 of this judgment: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/180877490/]. I checked the latest budget and the difference between the income from the fees charged to the students minus salary of staff and utilities (water + electricity + internet) is ~INR 75L - that's not much for an institution and certainty leaves little for capital expenditure. I am not even accounting for the many other expenditures which would naturally arise. Another interesting piece is the absence of interest payments - which would indicate that the college didn't build its infrastructure by taking credit / loans.
Budget: http://www.nlujodhpur.ac.in/uploads/23162009101146.pdf.
The newer buildings: the moot court hall, auditorium, library, administrative block, second mess, badminton court, etc., the college couldn't have constructed them without Government / UGC grants. The grants released by the UGC are also publicly available. The annual reports for 2011-2012 and 2013-14 set out the amounts released to the college by the UGC - I reckon a fair amount of the newer construction took place from these grants.
2011-12: https://www.ugc.ac.in/pdfnews/Annual_Report_2011-2012_English_Final.pdf
2013-14: (https://www.ugc.ac.in/pdfnews/7938259_Annual-Report-2013-14.pdf)
So, you see, your education is also being subsidized by the Government.
If anything this is unfair, given that the typical student profile in most National Law Universities is upper middle class and upper class. The annual per capita income (accounting for the Indian billionaires) is INR 1.25L - and 99% of the students of NLUs can afford 1.25L, either directly or by accessing credit. I would reckon (and this is an admittedly anecdotal guess) 90% of the students spent more money in a year than the annual per capita income.
Now choose which country you want.
Much better than slumming it out in India anyways. I like my life in Amreeka!!
Good luck!
This brings you to UK, USA and/or Canada. It is easiest to get into the former two, but the latter provides the best standard of living. Read, speak to people, and take a call - these are all good options.
Another option is to do the California Bar qualification - you do not need a US LLM, and being qualified in a foreign jurisdiction is enough to make you eligible. They have a very long drawn moral character assessment process, so the day you decide to do it and the day you manage to do it may well be a year or more apart. The other option is the England and Wales qualification through the SQE route (since the QLTS is being phased out). Both the California and E&W route have not been tested (as far as I know) to get a job abroad, but they could potentially swing things for you (especially if visa regimes are liberalised for Indians, such as potentially discussed between Boris and Modi).
Singapore (especially on the capital markets front) and Dubai are also options for Indian lawyers to move to laterally. Both offer benefits of remaining relatively close to home whilst also being abroad. Downside is that citizenship in Dubai will never happen, so you will continue as an NRI for the future. Don't know about the citizenship regime in Singapore.
When I said that "it is absolutely possible for one to get into a top law firm via this method as well," I was speaking of an academically exceptional candidate, with the right people/soft skills, getting incredibly lucky. I have seen it happen with at least 2 people, but both had LLMs from the US after LLB from India as well as some transactional experience.
On the other hand, 7 of 10 JD graduates from a good school will walk into Bay Street firms. You have to pay for the JD (but there are loan options) and you have to spend 3 years in law school again. But that is the opportunity cost which the other poster has chosen as his name on this thread.
Even at the Articleship stage - which may otherwise feel most daunting (esp. if you are coming in via NCA) - there are programs to give you a helping hand. The most difficult thing about getting an articling job is not knowing anyone and not carrying the name of an institution with you. To overcome this, kindly see Ryerson's Law practice program (LPP):
https://lpp.ryerson.ca/
Bottomline is that if you wish to come to make a life in Canada, there are multiple avenues and multiple opportunities down each of them. You just need to do the research at your end to figure out what suits you best.
1. a recognized law degree.
a) This can be done via pursuing a JD at A Canadian institution. LSAT + CGPA + writing samples + LoRs are needed.
b) Alternatively, you may gain equivalency via NCA. They will ask you to clear additional exams specific to Canadian set up. You'll have to do atleast four. You may do these while in India itself.
2. Thereafter, you'll need to clear the Bar exam. There is a separate exam for barristers and solicitors.
3. Finally, you'll need to take up articleshow Canada. This is easiest to get if you studied at a Canadian institution.
...
Now regarding your specific question. You can not practice law in Canada after a LLM.
However, certain schools (UBC, UoT, Osgoode) have now begun offering Professional LLMs for foreign trained lawyers. These serve as fulfilling NCA equivalency requirements. So, you could go the PRO-LLM + Bar + Articleship route. It is absolutely possible for one to get into a top law firm via this method as well.
"These students are required to repay the loan portion of their funding during the 10 years following graduation, only if their income is sufficient. If their income falls below a predetermined threshold in a particular year, the loan repayment for that year may be forgiven in whole or in part."
Other law schools have similar options. The program is available to both domestic and international students. The chances of showing 'need' among international students is higher due to steep exchange rates that many of them face.
While downvotes are definitely not scientific (and sometimes accidental), so please don't take them personally, in this case it's conceivable certain readers might have objected to the opinion that a life in Canada is better than in India.
Why was I downvoted?
-Domestic students from Canada opting for foreign degrees are usually those who cannot make it to a Canadian Law School, thus raising doubts about the competency of those who do not have non Canadian legal education in general. Is it fair? Probably not, but when you consider the fact that Australian unis like Bond have courses designed specifically for Canadian students who cannot make it into a law school there makes it justifiably suspect in the eyes of employers.
-Lack of familiarity with Indian Legal Education. This one should be fairly self-explanatory. Employers in Canada do not know anything about legal education in India. They cannot differentiate NLS from LPU, and you could see why that would reduce the employability of NCA lawyers in Canada.
-Lack of access to the formal hiring system. Most Canadian firms offer articling contracts to their 2L Summer Students. If you are out of this system of hiring, your opportunities reduce drastically, simply because firms wish to hire the best talent straight out of law school and fill all their slots accordingly.
Now, am I saying no one with an Indian Legal Education and with NCA Status has ever made a good career for themselves in Big Law? Absolutely not. The odds, however, are stacked against you, especially in the absence of any local contacts who can vouch for you. The high levels of immigration into Canada by lawyers in private practice from India has virtually made it impossible for firms to screen good candidates from bad ones, and so if you are sure about wanting to live in Canada, I would stick to my advice of getting a JD.
Sorry for any grammatical mistakes and hope this post is of some help.
In sum, do the NCA and get out. You'll still have a better life than in India. However, if big law corporate practice is your dream, then do a JD.
If you do go via the JD option, you'll have to take the LSAT. The best schools will give you offer if you can score a 80 percentile and had a CGPA of 3.7/4. Any better and you can count yourself in running for the loan program.
I can go on if people come up with specific questions.