This. Even though I was in this position almost 8 years ago now, I remember feeling bad because none of my internships got converted into PPOs. Now that I am on the other side, I know that often we just aren't looking to hire, or not in the headspace because we have too much work etc
Maybe at my current firm it is okay because HR is actually looking to check with the team regarding if the intern deserves a PPO, which basically means an interview, but totally get how important being at the right place at the right time is.
Lot of important things from the perspective of a mid rung NLU. I secured 2 PPO interviews. My first job was also the result of an internship. Joined a partner in Firm 3 after she moved. I think:
1. Very important for you to build a relationship with the team. Show your face daily. If you don't want to pester someone fine, but do drop in a casual "hey, what's up", so that by the end of 2 weeks, everyone knows who you are, and everyone is comfortable. There would be a few AHoles in the team, you know need to figure out how to avoid them.
2. Keep the A0s and A1s in their place. Shitty A0s and A1s have a tendency to drown you with work. As much as possible, get work from the senior most person. If the senior redirects, CC work product to the senior as well (if ee had suggested the work that was given). Try to build a rapport. Ask work from different people. If the same junior associate is drowning you with work, politely avoid the person. If the team sits together, make it a point to approach them when the drowner is not on zis seat. If the drowner exists, ze surely takes a lot of smoke breaks, coffee breaks, lunch breaks. Make the most out of those opportunities.
3. Remember, everyone is keen to give work right before or after lunch. Or in the evening. So approach them then. Don't bother people in the morning much since most people have a lot of catching up to do.
4. Try and avoid staying late. Try and avoid working with a person who stays later than their team. They are slackers. They won't help.
5. At the end of week 1 ask for an extension if you like the place. It is okay if you don't. It is however difficult to impress people in the short span of 2 weeks, so a recommendation would for PPO would get difficult.
6. At the end of week 2, take 10 minutes time from the senior most person that you have substantially worked for. Express your intent to work for the team and the firm. Be open. Be frank. This is your best shot. If you have done good work till then, the next 1/2 week will be more of an assessment.
7. Work - be sincere. Be thorough. If there is a 10th page on google with the best filter, open every damn link. Don't miss out on anything. Books, news articles, even comments. Go through every damn page. Properly. Practice SCC Online, Westlaw and Manu patra during your free time. Know how to pull out the latest version of laws. Cross check with amendments in gazette. Know how to use the gazette, government websites etc. Send proper emails. Have a proper subject line. Even if I see your email after 10 years, I should know what it was about and what it contains without having to open any attachments. Of course exigencies may require otherwise, but if you are smart enough, you will know it. Be punctual about coming to office, leaving office and submitting your work. Unless something is urgent, or you have a meeting / appointment, don't stay back late.
8. Be patient. Persevere. If you deserved to get everything handed out on a silver plate, you'd have been in NLS and the mere fact that you interned would ensure that an alumni recommended you for a PPO (unless you are downright foolish, and clearing CLAT was an accident).
9. Be proper. Bathe everyday. Wear ironed sober colored shirts (black pants with a white shirt 5 days a week is better than a red/yellow/green/navy blue shirt with any such outrageous colored pants). Look up for pastel shades. Wear a belt and shoes which are not damaged. Wear formal shoes. 350₹ formal shoes are more appropriate than a 50000₹ Jordan. Dress professionally. No need for a blazer or a tie if you can't afford it, or don't like it, but others are non negotiable. No colored handkerchiefs or socks either.
10. Decency - Be courteous yet firm with everyone. Don't be a pushover. You are a future lawyer. Act like one.
11. Work on your English and ability to converse. Tier 1 firms only need that from you. Person who commits a lot grammatical errors does not get hired. If they do get hired, they don't get promoted till they learn. So watch English news, movies, videos. Read books. Work on your English, because frankly, that is the only non negotiable from the perspective of hiring and career progression till SA level.
Being a junior associate and somebody who had converted an internship into a PPO, I can probably offer a few tips:
1) Clarity in communication: If you are confused about something, say it right there and then. Don't think about it. Chances are whatever work you are being given forms a very basic part of the actual deliverable (if that even). Nobody expects you to know anything besides the useless fluff taught at law school. Therefore, being clear up front about what you know and what you have done in the past makes a good impression. Most of the time, interns are afraid to state that they don't know something for fear of being judged but bear in mind, that nobody has the time to judge. They just want the task done as diligently as possible, so getting those out of the way right up front is a good start.
2) No honorifics: Most people who will be giving you work at law firms are young associates and they do not prefer being called sir or mam. Always ask right at the beginning what they would prefer to be called. If somebody says no sir, no mam, do not call them that! It shows that you are ready for the culture and ready to adapt (as most of the time it feels weird to not call associates you are working with sir/mam). Make that adjustment as soon as possible.
3) Writing/Presentation: Always use TNR/11 as the default in word docs and no borders please. Use appropriate headers, confidential, for discussion only etc. Use bullets, headings, underlines, etc. to bring clarity to the document as much as possible if you are preparing some note.
4) Deadlines: Always request for deadlines and stick to them. If you can't, inform seniors beforehand instead of at the moment. Always provide reasons why you couldn't stick to the deadline, even if the reason was that you took time to grasp what the actual assignment was. Most seniors will appreciate the honesty as they would have been in your shows not very long ago.
5) Emails/Texts: Always try to use full words and be courteous in your emails and texts, despite what anyone says. Writing the full word does not take more than seconds. Some people don't care about it but some people don't. Keep in mind that you are trying to take care of those to whom such things matter.
6) Feedback: Always ask for feedback near the end of the internship. Understand that people are super busy and they wont have the time to give you feedback on every deliverable you have sent, so it helps if you request for 5/10 minutes from the people you have worked with and ask them the things that you can improve. Again, don't go for deference and take things in your stride.
7) Stress: Trying to convert the internship into a PPO is stressful. But never let it get in the way of you learning (and here by learning, I do not mean the scam learning but you learning the tricks of being a corp lawyer). During your internship be responsive and as responsible like you are already working there.
Best of luck, friend. Please post here back again once you get the offer.
Agree on your circumstances. However, most interns may not be lucky enough to be lut in a place where their work is imminently required in 20 seconds. Where it does, i will appreciate expediency. Where not- form and substance too.
In my opinion, an interns objective is to be memorable for the team and have recall value when an application for a job goes. Or when a paper for a PPO is pushed, people should not wonder who that person is and what work they have done. Any way to achieve that good.
Sister/brother - I work at a Tier I. There’s no way an intern can guess when a Partner/Associate is free. By your logic, every intern should act like a flower on the wall no?
Asking for work once a week or even twice is not “pestering”. One email didn’t make a difference to even a Partner who has had 30 other emails. Might actually make a difference for the intern!!
Of course ask for work, that would be appreciated. But approach the Associates/ SAs when they're free. Please don't start shooting emails to Partners and clog their inbox. This of course is from a tier 1 perspective (with bigger teams/ hierarchy).
This guy seems to be an intern himself and has no clue as to how one should conduct at a professional environment. Don't have the time to write a long post but guys/ gals DO NOT email the partner every few days (especially at a tier 1 firm). Partners have 2500 things going on and may not be in the best of mood. You'd be kicked out of the firm then and there if you disturb partners.
Sent attachments with no subject or even PFA, got hired via PPO. Of course, these emails were sent while being on call so the aim was to share it in the quickest way possible.
Etiquette depends on the circumstance. If there's no pressure to send a document in the next 20 seconds, or if the senior adopts a formal way of writing in emails, never abbreviate in any email to said person.
Personally, I find PFA to be okay for sending specific docs from data room etc to colleagues but not while submitting a work product.
PPO recipient here. There’s a lot of pressure on students to get a PPO, so just want to add a caveat here: You have to be in the right place at the right time.
1. Sometimes teams are just not hiring, and no matter how much you effort you put in, hard work doesn’t cut it.
2. Sometimes the teams don’t have enough work. If you don’t get the opportunity to work, how will they even assess you?
All of these things have happened with me [different internships] and I know you can feel worthless when you see your friends securing PPOs and you come back empty handed. But don’t worry, if you are really good, and you keep at it, the universe has a way of making sure you land in your feet.
Be enthusiastic and genuinely excited and interested in the work. Ask questions/ demonstrate curiosity.
Most important, make sure you regularly communicate that you are interested in a PPO. You may learn for instance that the firm is not hiring; this information will be useful for you to look for other opportunities. Speak to different people in the team, you never know who may tell you about a lead at another law firm/ company or refer you somewhere.
Hey, while this probably depends on the team, I have never stayed beyond 8 PM at an internship. While part of that is being lucky with the kind of teams I worked with, unless there is an actual need or urgency, don't stay up till such odd hours hoping to impress your team. I was on good terms with a boutique regarding a PPO, but I did not pursue it beyond a point as I had an offer from elsewhere. However, based on how that internship went, I think what one needs to do is work diligently - you might not know a lot of stuff about their practice area, and that is okay. Make sure you learn from them (and in your free hours by yourself). Clarify what the deliverable is before you start working on it. Its okay to ask basic questions, even if they sound stupid to you. Be nice and kind to people, don't suck up, don't pretend to be a person you are not. as long as you are reasonably smart (not assessed only on how much law you know imo), work diligently, don't slack, are eager to learn, you should have a good shot.
I know sometimes it feels like you should stay for hours after usual working hours to impress your team, but that is just pointless waste while making you feel like you actually accomplished something by staying late. Personally, I would target leaving at 630, so that in the hours I stay in the office, I got work done and was not wasting time.
With internships (particularly non-corp internships with litigators), even if you don't get a job, be nice to people, stay in touch. They will often be helpful when you need them later. (Of course, even if they don't help you get a job or another internship, it is jut helpful to know more people and no harm in being nice to people). I cannot tell you the number of times I was aware of opportunities only because people I had worked with reached out to me to help.
This really depends on your team but from my experience, you don't need to stay back and work late, if your associates and partners know and can see the work that you're putting in. This may mean that you check in with them throughout the day, but if you're done with your work early, leave because staying back doesn't guarantee a PPO.
The loophole in your argument is that the sender must be able to predict accurately the circumstances under which the recipient would deem it a mark of efficiency and not laziness. Whereas nobody in their right mind would object to a standard vanilla cover mail that can copied for almost all scenarios. Remember that the intern is unlikely to know in a month what all makes the associate tick, and hence should opt for what's safe rather than to risk it. Assuming this is in the context of making a good impression for PPOs that is.
I don’t completely agree here. PFA is actually very preferable in some contexts. For instance, if you have just gotten off from a call with an associate where you told them that you have found this notification which is relevant while quickly explaining what it states - then PFA is okay. In situations like these, I would actually prefer a PFA. Of course, the subject must be there so I can identify what you have sent.
PFA, in a lot of situations, is not a sign of laziness but rather being quick and efficient.
I can share some tips since I recently got hired at a Tier II firm. I had previously interned here.
At the beginning of the final semester I sent a mail to the HR requesting an assessment internship (the Subject line must state that you are seeking an assessment internship or applying for a trainee associate position). Also, if you have previously interned at the firm, then copy in the recruiting partner (ask the associates whom you assisted who they are) or the partner of team you wish to join.
Never outrightly refuse to take work from an associate. Tell them you are busy with some other assignment and would be able to start on the new one only, for instance, a couple of hours later. It is not very often that partners delegate work directly to interns, so it is the associates that you should consistently try to impress. Do the boring work diligently. Be available.
Always double-check the provisions you are relying on as well as the language of you work, in case you have been asked to prepare the first draft. Ensure that it has no typos or formatting errors.
If you have been given research work, then always summarise the findings in the mail itself. If it is a case-law, succinctly explain the facts and key observations of the Court (mark the relevant paras ofc). If the research work requires you to find provisions, then check the complete statute for any other related provisions. Again, try to present your research in a manner that makes the life of the associate easy.
Bonus tips - Try to quickly find/pull out gazette notifications. You should be comfortable with using regulatory and govt. websites.
Read financial newspapers. I prefer financial express. Not going to tell how this would help, you will figure it out on your own.
Stay upbeat!
Please excuse me for typos or bad writing - I have had a lot of work today.
Further to my previous comment, let me put it this way:
Saw your email without any subject. The content had three letters “PFA”. I had seven more important emails that day. You failed to make an impression. Hope you take this feedback positively. Thanks!
PFA just seems very callous. Why not have two-three nice drafts ready for different occasions and copy paste those everytime you are sending an email. I have found that is actually approved by the recipients.
Only recently decided that I need to get a law firm job, again for the financial constraints logic. Genuinely wondering what the standard of performance that generally gets a PPO is. Do you have to have been working till 2 AM and weekends "integrally" to the team, or have assisted on one particular matter throughout/done drafting and not just research work?
Would the benefits of interning twice dissipate if I am to work with a different team during my second internship? Asking because I prefer other practice areas more.
1. Communicate with your seniors and try and be friendly. 2. Do neat work and show that you are willing to go out of the way to get a job and more importantly your willingness to learn. 3. Keep pestering the HR.
1. Believe that you belong. Interviewer can smell nervousness even from a zoom call 2. Couple your belief with good basics - know at least those rules and regulations thoroughly which apply to your area 3. SAY IT - Contrary to what you think, most interns don’t say they want to be hired and are not hired 4. Draft good internal emails. Don’t bore the team with a “PFA” even internally. I notice such interns and don’t have a great impression about them. 5. Keep Emailing the partner and the team every few days if underworked. Don’t sit around assuming people know you are free and will reach out. All the best and keep safe!
I've almost always hired interns who have secured 2 internships with my team. My advice would be to show your interest in the relevant practice, express your interest in being hired to the senior you are working with and keep in touch with the people within the team after your internship. Of course, all this is predicated on the quality of your work.
I never wanted to work at a corporate firm, but my family's health issues have made it such that I have to start contributing my share as soon as I graduate. I worked up some jugaad to get an internship at a tier II firm and worked as hard as I could. Now I applied again at the same place without any jugaad and got a second internship. How do I now convert this opportunity into a PPO?
Maybe at my current firm it is okay because HR is actually looking to check with the team regarding if the intern deserves a PPO, which basically means an interview, but totally get how important being at the right place at the right time is.
Lot of important things from the perspective of a mid rung NLU. I secured 2 PPO interviews. My first job was also the result of an internship. Joined a partner in Firm 3 after she moved. I think:
1. Very important for you to build a relationship with the team. Show your face daily. If you don't want to pester someone fine, but do drop in a casual "hey, what's up", so that by the end of 2 weeks, everyone knows who you are, and everyone is comfortable. There would be a few AHoles in the team, you know need to figure out how to avoid them.
2. Keep the A0s and A1s in their place. Shitty A0s and A1s have a tendency to drown you with work. As much as possible, get work from the senior most person. If the senior redirects, CC work product to the senior as well (if ee had suggested the work that was given). Try to build a rapport. Ask work from different people. If the same junior associate is drowning you with work, politely avoid the person. If the team sits together, make it a point to approach them when the drowner is not on zis seat. If the drowner exists, ze surely takes a lot of smoke breaks, coffee breaks, lunch breaks. Make the most out of those opportunities.
3. Remember, everyone is keen to give work right before or after lunch. Or in the evening. So approach them then. Don't bother people in the morning much since most people have a lot of catching up to do.
4. Try and avoid staying late. Try and avoid working with a person who stays later than their team. They are slackers. They won't help.
5. At the end of week 1 ask for an extension if you like the place. It is okay if you don't. It is however difficult to impress people in the short span of 2 weeks, so a recommendation would for PPO would get difficult.
6. At the end of week 2, take 10 minutes time from the senior most person that you have substantially worked for. Express your intent to work for the team and the firm. Be open. Be frank. This is your best shot. If you have done good work till then, the next 1/2 week will be more of an assessment.
7. Work - be sincere. Be thorough. If there is a 10th page on google with the best filter, open every damn link. Don't miss out on anything. Books, news articles, even comments. Go through every damn page. Properly. Practice SCC Online, Westlaw and Manu patra during your free time. Know how to pull out the latest version of laws. Cross check with amendments in gazette. Know how to use the gazette, government websites etc. Send proper emails. Have a proper subject line. Even if I see your email after 10 years, I should know what it was about and what it contains without having to open any attachments. Of course exigencies may require otherwise, but if you are smart enough, you will know it. Be punctual about coming to office, leaving office and submitting your work. Unless something is urgent, or you have a meeting / appointment, don't stay back late.
8. Be patient. Persevere. If you deserved to get everything handed out on a silver plate, you'd have been in NLS and the mere fact that you interned would ensure that an alumni recommended you for a PPO (unless you are downright foolish, and clearing CLAT was an accident).
9. Be proper. Bathe everyday. Wear ironed sober colored shirts (black pants with a white shirt 5 days a week is better than a red/yellow/green/navy blue shirt with any such outrageous colored pants). Look up for pastel shades. Wear a belt and shoes which are not damaged. Wear formal shoes. 350₹ formal shoes are more appropriate than a 50000₹ Jordan. Dress professionally. No need for a blazer or a tie if you can't afford it, or don't like it, but others are non negotiable. No colored handkerchiefs or socks either.
10. Decency - Be courteous yet firm with everyone. Don't be a pushover. You are a future lawyer. Act like one.
11. Work on your English and ability to converse. Tier 1 firms only need that from you. Person who commits a lot grammatical errors does not get hired. If they do get hired, they don't get promoted till they learn. So watch English news, movies, videos. Read books. Work on your English, because frankly, that is the only non negotiable from the perspective of hiring and career progression till SA level.
1) Clarity in communication: If you are confused about something, say it right there and then. Don't think about it. Chances are whatever work you are being given forms a very basic part of the actual deliverable (if that even). Nobody expects you to know anything besides the useless fluff taught at law school. Therefore, being clear up front about what you know and what you have done in the past makes a good impression. Most of the time, interns are afraid to state that they don't know something for fear of being judged but bear in mind, that nobody has the time to judge. They just want the task done as diligently as possible, so getting those out of the way right up front is a good start.
2) No honorifics: Most people who will be giving you work at law firms are young associates and they do not prefer being called sir or mam. Always ask right at the beginning what they would prefer to be called. If somebody says no sir, no mam, do not call them that! It shows that you are ready for the culture and ready to adapt (as most of the time it feels weird to not call associates you are working with sir/mam). Make that adjustment as soon as possible.
3) Writing/Presentation: Always use TNR/11 as the default in word docs and no borders please. Use appropriate headers, confidential, for discussion only etc. Use bullets, headings, underlines, etc. to bring clarity to the document as much as possible if you are preparing some note.
4) Deadlines: Always request for deadlines and stick to them. If you can't, inform seniors beforehand instead of at the moment. Always provide reasons why you couldn't stick to the deadline, even if the reason was that you took time to grasp what the actual assignment was. Most seniors will appreciate the honesty as they would have been in your shows not very long ago.
5) Emails/Texts: Always try to use full words and be courteous in your emails and texts, despite what anyone says. Writing the full word does not take more than seconds. Some people don't care about it but some people don't. Keep in mind that you are trying to take care of those to whom such things matter.
6) Feedback: Always ask for feedback near the end of the internship. Understand that people are super busy and they wont have the time to give you feedback on every deliverable you have sent, so it helps if you request for 5/10 minutes from the people you have worked with and ask them the things that you can improve. Again, don't go for deference and take things in your stride.
7) Stress: Trying to convert the internship into a PPO is stressful. But never let it get in the way of you learning (and here by learning, I do not mean the scam learning but you learning the tricks of being a corp lawyer). During your internship be responsive and as responsible like you are already working there.
Best of luck, friend. Please post here back again once you get the offer.
In my opinion, an interns objective is to be memorable for the team and have recall value when an application for a job goes. Or when a paper for a PPO is pushed, people should not wonder who that person is and what work they have done. Any way to achieve that good.
Asking for work once a week or even twice is not “pestering”. One email didn’t make a difference to even a Partner who has had 30 other emails. Might actually make a difference for the intern!!
My firm doesn’t. Also, “guy”, hmm. You never know who is on the other side, do you? #notaguy
Yes, I sent PFAs whenever the situation demanded. Got a PPO too.
Etiquette depends on the circumstance. If there's no pressure to send a document in the next 20 seconds, or if the senior adopts a formal way of writing in emails, never abbreviate in any email to said person.
Personally, I find PFA to be okay for sending specific docs from data room etc to colleagues but not while submitting a work product.
1. Did you get a PPO while writing PFA?
2. Have you given a PPO to some intern who writes PFA?
You have to be in the right place at the right time.
1. Sometimes teams are just not hiring, and no matter how much you effort you put in, hard work doesn’t cut it.
2. Sometimes the teams don’t have enough work. If you don’t get the opportunity to work, how will they even assess you?
All of these things have happened with me [different internships] and I know you can feel worthless when you see your friends securing PPOs and you come back empty handed. But don’t worry, if you are really good, and you keep at it, the universe has a way of making sure you land in your feet.
All the best!
Most important, make sure you regularly communicate that you are interested in a PPO. You may learn for instance that the firm is not hiring; this information will be useful for you to look for other opportunities. Speak to different people in the team, you never know who may tell you about a lead at another law firm/ company or refer you somewhere.
Id like an intern who sends me the notification and also briefly summarises it in the mail. Try and show you can be more than a secretary
Which associate can “PFA” their work to their Boss? Let alone clients!!
I know sometimes it feels like you should stay for hours after usual working hours to impress your team, but that is just pointless waste while making you feel like you actually accomplished something by staying late. Personally, I would target leaving at 630, so that in the hours I stay in the office, I got work done and was not wasting time.
With internships (particularly non-corp internships with litigators), even if you don't get a job, be nice to people, stay in touch. They will often be helpful when you need them later. (Of course, even if they don't help you get a job or another internship, it is jut helpful to know more people and no harm in being nice to people). I cannot tell you the number of times I was aware of opportunities only because people I had worked with reached out to me to help.
Hope you get that job you are looking for.
PFA, in a lot of situations, is not a sign of laziness but rather being quick and efficient.
At the beginning of the final semester I sent a mail to the HR requesting an assessment internship (the Subject line must state that you are seeking an assessment internship or applying for a trainee associate position). Also, if you have previously interned at the firm, then copy in the recruiting partner (ask the associates whom you assisted who they are) or the partner of team you wish to join.
Never outrightly refuse to take work from an associate. Tell them you are busy with some other assignment and would be able to start on the new one only, for instance, a couple of hours later. It is not very often that partners delegate work directly to interns, so it is the associates that you should consistently try to impress. Do the boring work diligently. Be available.
Always double-check the provisions you are relying on as well as the language of you work, in case you have been asked to prepare the first draft. Ensure that it has no typos or formatting errors.
If you have been given research work, then always summarise the findings in the mail itself. If it is a case-law, succinctly explain the facts and key observations of the Court (mark the relevant paras ofc). If the research work requires you to find provisions, then check the complete statute for any other related provisions. Again, try to present your research in a manner that makes the life of the associate easy.
Bonus tips - Try to quickly find/pull out gazette notifications. You should be comfortable with using regulatory and govt. websites.
Read financial newspapers. I prefer financial express. Not going to tell how this would help, you will figure it out on your own.
Stay upbeat!
Please excuse me for typos or bad writing - I have had a lot of work today.
Hope you are keeping well.
Further to my previous comment, let me put it this way:
Saw your email without any subject. The content had three letters “PFA”. I had seven more important emails that day. You failed to make an impression. Hope you take this feedback positively. Thanks!
Regards,
No Biggie
2. Do neat work and show that you are willing to go out of the way to get a job and more importantly your willingness to learn.
3. Keep pestering the HR.
I worked up some jugaad to get an internship at a tier II firm and worked as hard as I could. Now I applied again at the same place without any jugaad and got a second internship. How do I now convert this opportunity into a PPO?