To what degree would one's alma mater affect career progression at an MC firm? I would suppose very few outside India would consider NLUs equivalent to decent Russel Square Unis, let alone Oxbridge. Does that cause people to return to India? Genuinely curious.
Engineers are grossly underpaid in the UK check the stats, it much better to be a solicitor in London.Their pay never seems to touch the 6 figure mark, whereas all mclf touch them in the first year. Please do not cite names of entrepreneurs, they don't quite represent engineers.
I am an ancient creature who has worked here and there and now back here. I am mildly amused by the discussion on salary comparisons and savings. It would be the least important criteria when you look back 12-25 years hence.
All that I can say is that stay happy if you get an opportunity to do well in India and equally stay happy if you get a chance to work in London, MC or no MC. Don't think too much about the other side. Grass is always greener... etc.
Though, I will, with all sincerity say that quality of life and work satisfaction, for a first generation lawyer from Indian middle class, is miles ahead of what you would normally expect in India. Assuming, that you end up putting in the effort to do well in your job!
Also believe me, cooking for self is not such a big chore (cleaning utensils though is!) and it is / was therapeutic after an intense day at work.
I am actually from Delhi and I never realized that Mumbai associates are paying too much for their living costs compared to Delhi. I had to choose between SAM Delhi and Links (Factoring in 1 year of SQE, 1 year of PGDL, and 2 years of TC) I used the same analysis website for comparison and found that 22 lakhs of compensation in Delhi translate to around 94k in London in terms of PPP. The difference is actually huge at around 30k pounds. The comparison website is already factoring in the Rent and other associated costs of living, so it would be inappropriate to consider additional costs of huge rents in Mumbai. Even if you compare Mumbai and London, compensation wise Mumbai is no less. Yes, considering other factors London seems a better option than Mumbai. Also, the figure of 1.5 Million that you have quoted is the PEP of an MC firm. That is actually not a true guide to understand the partner's compensation (There are several articles in Google telling you why). If you were to find out the PEP of L&L (up to a year back) it would be too high because of their structure of the firm. For all other law firms in India as well, PEP would be awesome but that is not the reality of partner's compensation simply because there are going to be some partners who will bag much more money than freshly minted ones. PEP would be an average of all that.
Also, I agree with your point that Mr. Gandhi made a partner in around 11 years but as far as I understood he must be an exceptional performer and I know he is. I know a couple of very talented associates from my college as well as from NLS who joined the MC firms in 2006 and 2007 who have yet not made partners while all their peers did way back in India (It would be inappropriate to name any of them here but a simple random search on LinkedIn will tell you that, if you think I am wrong, please try to find a few more names who made partners in MC in around 10-11 years). Exceptions exist everywhere, I know a few Indian associates who just partner in 7 and a half years, that cannot be of course considered a norm.
As far as shifting to a US firm is concerned, I was told by several of my college alumni that lateral shifting to a US firm is not very easy as most of them are not full-service law firms and hire in very few numbers. It might be possible that you work in Capital Market but most US law firms do not work in Cap market. Most of them focus on Private Equity, International Arbitration, and M&A only. Secondly, they have a huge Oxbridge preference and love to hire mostly Oxbridge graduates. Finally, many US firms (eg- White and Case) do not prefer to hire those associates (Indian) who took the QLTS test for qualification. Many of them prefer you take the LPC qualification route.
Ofc, I have nothing against those who join English law firms. They all are brilliant students but my point is that it is not as lucrative as seems to be in College and thing aren't too bad in India either if you look at it in broader comparison.
Your conversion figures looked strange to me so I decided to have a look at you link and itβs clear. You are comparing London with Delhi, itβs Mumbai we are talking about here. I gave that website a go and comparing Mumbai to London gave this result. Letβs assume your numbers are correct and A3s in India are getting 22lakhs in hand after tax in Mumbai. On that very website you provided, this translates to 66k GBP in purchasing power which is exactly what MC lawyers make post-tax upon qualification in their first year. (Again let me remind you this is 1st year MC vs 4th year in India) So even after having 3years of gap, they are on equal footing even you compare on purchasing power terms. And while you seem to factor in the living costs of London, youβre not doing that for Mumbai, 22 lakhs translates to 1.85 lakhs per month and rent for a decent apartment in Mumbai is 70-80k with 2.5 lakhs deposit. For London, you get a decent 2BHK canary wharf apartment for 2k GBP(that is what you need when you have a family, without family you can get a decent 1 BHK for 1300 GBP and this is for a posh area, other areas are cheaper)Use 103 INR for a Pound and youβll find that while folks in Mumbai are spending 40-50% of their salary on rent, we pay 25-30% of our salary here. Wait till you find out that the cheapest good apartment you can find when it comes to buying one is 2.5 to 3 crores.(10-12x your yearly salary) while folks in London are clearing their mortgages in 7-8 years because decent(not luxury)apartments in London are 2-3x expensive than Mumbai while we get 4-5x the salary in Mumbai, interest rates being less that half of what you get in Mumbai. Then wait till you die in traffic while we zoom across the cycle superhighways here and change after a good gym session in the in-house gym. See Iβm trying my best here to mention only the friendly not so racist points. You wanted figures, you got your figures. I agree with your point though that hiring a cook here is not feasible but that can also be because unemployment has not reached that extent where un-trained people are resorting to cooking in exchange for peanuts. Then what people are telling you about making partner after 15-16 years is a hoax, you can check the article posted on this website about Prathik Gandhi to clear your confusion. Itβs a valid point to consider partner salaries because I took the decision after considering long term implications and not the sudden surge of money. Average partner compensation in MC is 1.5M GBP, youβd know the numbers in India better. I agree with you on points that LPC or SQE sucks and US firms are getting paid a lot, but it thatβs all you care about then you can find a place there if your workβs good here. I have many friends in Indian Law firms and I wish them nothing but the best. Cheers.
If you want money and intend to settle abroad, stay away from the legal profession. The law degree you earn in the country does not give you international mobility.
Instead, go to some engineering college and do a master's abroad, settle down there and make loads after the first five years.
I know friends in the US raking in good moolah. At the same pace, they would end up saving considerably before and even after marriage by the time they turn 40.
In India lawyers dont pay tax on whole of their income. Under PGBP (Secrion 44 aba of Income Tax act) you have to pay taxes on 50% of your income. If you are paid 22 Lakhs, you have to pay tax on 11 lakhs only which turns out to be veΕy less. Plus, you can always go for other deductions and exmeptions under Section 80C. Tax amount would hardly be 2 lakhs.
Also, I made a mistake there- When you will be NQ (A0) in MC firm your counterparts will be A3 here in India. They will be earning around 23-25 Lakhs. They are easily outearning their MC peers in terms of Purchasing power capacity. You may use this living standard converter to find out that-
I agree that having no life in London and having no life in Mumbai is a no brainier but not always when Mumbai is paying you significantly more than London. London certainly offers benefits like Mortgages and Cars, Mumbai offers other benefits like Doemstic help. Do you get to hire a cook easily in London? I would rather not drive a German car but get my food cooked at home by paying a meagre sum of money. Outside food is not fit for daily uses even if it is hygienic in London.
Plus, it's not appropriate to compare Partner's compensation of an MC firm and an Indian firm. Barring very few exceptions, associates make partner in London after 15-16 years out of law school (and that too not everyone) whereas in India they make partner in 9-11 years.
I checked on Legal cheek as well and found that even Managing Associates (after 5/6 years) are paid 150k-170k at Linklaters. If you compare this post tax income with Indian Principal associates you will find that the latter are easily outearning and that too significantly (Around 10 Lakhs in terms of Indian PPP). Paying very less tax is a side benefit, haha. Not to mention that US law firm associates in London (which are very competitive) are offering gargantuan salary to their associates. A 5 PQE at Linklaters is perhaps earning lesser than NQ at a US law firm (Kirkland) that too with equally horrible work hours.
Work hours remain equally horrible everywhere, just that compensation varies. MC lawyers may have extra respect but not money conpared to their Indian peers.
I know this much since I was offerred a TC this year and I declined it. Not because of compensation but because of SQE ans PGDL. Links and HSF are now asking their foreign joiners to do years of study post law school, write a test and then become a trainee. Essentially, 4 years after law school, I will become an A0 and start earning decently enough
Which tax slab gives you 20 lakhs after deducting tax from 22 lakhs? Otherwise I agree with you that during the training contract, people do suffer from a financial crunch but itβs still more than enough to live comfortably just that you cannot save more than 500-600 pounds. After qualification, your figures are correct, but like I said living in London is not that expensive when you compare it with metro cities in India(especially Mumbai). You are also correct in that London offer a lot of facilities which Delhi/Mumbai donβt, then there are other factors like 3% interest on mortgages, german cars are available for 2/3 of the price in India and Italian supercars for half the price, brand new. The perks offered by MC firms are also a lot better than Indian firms like insurance, seasonal pass, 25 days no-questions asked leave and the offices are great. Office experience again depends on the team but itβs friendlier than the Indian firms I interned with. Bad internship experience was one of the reasons for the move here. Now coming to the pay figures you are giving, you can check the firms-list on legalcheek to get a rough idea as to what partners here make and then compare it to what partners in India make, I wonβt go there on numbers. I agree with you that the pay gap is not as much in the first 2 years but then the number grows exponentially. Nothing against Indian lawyers, all of us have no life but when I had the choice to have no life in Mumbai or to have no life in London, it was a no-brainer.
You are going to be paid 95k after qualification (Assuming Links, A&O) out of which you will get inhand maximum 65k after deduction of tax and pension contribution. If you compare 65k pounds in terms of living standard of Delhi/Mumbai it turns out to be 15 Lakhs.
Your batchmates are now A2 in most Indian firms (Since you must have had a year gap followed by two years of training contract) and almost all of them are earning north of 22 Lakhs. Even after tax deduction, they will make around 20 Lakhs.
There is a clear gap of around 5 lakhs in terms of purchasing power parity. Not to mention that you earned substantially less in first 2 years as compared to your peers and you are still an A0 (NQ) while your peers are about to become Senior Associates in a year or two.
Infact, if you compare for an MC lawyer adter 5-6 years of his service, you will find this gap widened substantially. Although, in terms of absolute comparison London lawyers will always savw more because of pounds conversion rate.
So, in terms of money Indian counterparts are paid better. But, it still is a personal choice for many. None can deny the fact that london offers wasy better facilities as compared to delhi or mumbai
My point is just that people on this thread think that MC lawyers get that 2800 pound stipend all their lives, but thatβs not true. After qualification, you can easily rent a nice apartment in canary wharf with an excellent view, live a decent life and still save your Indian counterpartβs monthly salary every month. It depends of personal preferences, India has itβs own advantages but money is not an issue after qualification in MC firms.
People who are saying that you canβt save enough because of the high living costs of London and you think you will save more in Mumbai, these people are either planning to live in Mayfair in case of London or in a shanty in Dharavi in case of Mumbai, Iβve seen rents in Lower Parel and I pay rent in London and they are comparable even when I get 5x more when compared to my batchmates in India. And this factor is going to increase to 7x in year 8.
I did a training contract and then worked as an associate at a MC firm in London. Leaving to come back to India was the single biggest mistake of my life.
The marriage thing is true. It's harder for brown men to find a partner abroad compared to brown women, due to structural racism and negative stereotypes of brown men in the Western media (rapists, terrorists, 7/11 workers, geeks etc) versus brown women (exotic, fetishised, vulnerable and in need of a white saviour). Also a degree of internalised racism.
As Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak says in Can the Subaltern Speak: "White men are saving brown women from brown men".
And as the creator of the Simpsons recently said: "I was speaking at my sonβs school. I was talking to the Indian kids there because I wanted to get their input,...A 17-year-old boy β¦ heβs never even seen The Simpsons, but knows what Apu means. Itβs practically a slur at this point....... I apologize for my part in creating that and participating in that β¦ Part of me feels like I need to go around to every single Indian person in this country and personally apologize"
Anyone who has worked with Brits can quickly answer this question. The question you should ask, is why do so few Indians at NYC or other American firms return, especially compared to MC firms? Again, ask anyone who has worked with Brits.
Medical emergency, dial number and ambulance arrives.
Same for them in India. Pvt healthcare here is amazing if you can afford it (so they can). Ex Magic Circle wallahs aren't queuing up in JJ or Nair.
Quote:
No running around for hospital bed.
Again see above point. In England you've to be very wealthy to afford pvt insurance that entirely replaces the NHS and more.
Quote:
No potholed roads
That's on the driver and their stomping grounds are looked after more or less. Can't say the same for the rest of India.
Quote:
no uncertainty regarding 24/7 water supply, electricity,
Again, see above plus generators and tankers are cheap (for them). The rest of India be dammned.
You're aware that wealthy individuals and their families until corona resided in India right? The developing world is famously unequal.
You do know that wealthy/rich doesn't just mean Ambani, Tata, Birla etc right? You're a tiny minority just by virtue of earning enough to pay income tax.
Yes, who wouldn't? Medical emergency, dial number and ambulance arrives. No running around for hospital bed. No potholed roads, no uncertainty regarding 24/7 water supply, electricity, etc etc.
One can't afford ~~slaves~~ servants in England on Magic Circle salaries. A mere 60,000 INR per mensem will net you a whole battalion of them including a driver and cook (if bargained).
Pay is one of the major issues. If you compare cost of living in terms of PPP you will realise that MC lawyers are paid significantly lesser than their peers at India and way lesser than US firms. Promotion is another issue, barring very few exceptions, you cannot expect to be promoted to partner with less than 15 years of work experience.
One of my nicer seniors at my law firm was former MC. She told me that very many MC lawyers actually decide to come back for a variety of reasons. Firstly, while the pay is fantastic, expenses are astronomical, especially in the heart of London and unless you're rooming with two other colleagues, your savings aren't as fancy as you'd expect. You can offset your pay cut in returning to India by leveraging a promotion, sometimes up to 2 years ahead of time.
Second, many return for their family. As parents get older and there's pressure for rishtas and vivaah, many end up coming back, homesick.
Thirdly, quality of work. Now this is very variable but many MC Indian lawyers are relegated to India desk matters, which can very quickly get rote and boring.
How do the magic circle law firms fare compared to Indian law firms? I know they pay more but then living expenses also tend to be on the higher end in most of these cities. What I am more curious about is why do and I have seen a decent number of folks return back to India to work for Indian firms after working a small stint at a magic circle firm. I am not talking about folks who did not convert their training contract but about talking about associates working at these firms?
Please do not cite names of entrepreneurs, they don't quite represent engineers.
All that I can say is that stay happy if you get an opportunity to do well in India and equally stay happy if you get a chance to work in London, MC or no MC. Don't think too much about the other side. Grass is always greener... etc.
Though, I will, with all sincerity say that quality of life and work satisfaction, for a first generation lawyer from Indian middle class, is miles ahead of what you would normally expect in India. Assuming, that you end up putting in the effort to do well in your job!
Also believe me, cooking for self is not such a big chore (cleaning utensils though is!) and it is / was therapeutic after an intense day at work.
Also, I agree with your point that Mr. Gandhi made a partner in around 11 years but as far as I understood he must be an exceptional performer and I know he is. I know a couple of very talented associates from my college as well as from NLS who joined the MC firms in 2006 and 2007 who have yet not made partners while all their peers did way back in India (It would be inappropriate to name any of them here but a simple random search on LinkedIn will tell you that, if you think I am wrong, please try to find a few more names who made partners in MC in around 10-11 years). Exceptions exist everywhere, I know a few Indian associates who just partner in 7 and a half years, that cannot be of course considered a norm.
As far as shifting to a US firm is concerned, I was told by several of my college alumni that lateral shifting to a US firm is not very easy as most of them are not full-service law firms and hire in very few numbers. It might be possible that you work in Capital Market but most US law firms do not work in Cap market. Most of them focus on Private Equity, International Arbitration, and M&A only. Secondly, they have a huge Oxbridge preference and love to hire mostly Oxbridge graduates. Finally, many US firms (eg- White and Case) do not prefer to hire those associates (Indian) who took the QLTS test for qualification. Many of them prefer you take the LPC qualification route.
Ofc, I have nothing against those who join English law firms. They all are brilliant students but my point is that it is not as lucrative as seems to be in College and thing aren't too bad in India either if you look at it in broader comparison.
You are comparing London with Delhi, itβs Mumbai we are talking about here.
I gave that website a go and comparing Mumbai to London gave this result. Letβs assume your numbers are correct and A3s in India are getting 22lakhs in hand after tax in Mumbai. On that very website you provided, this translates to 66k GBP in purchasing power which is exactly what MC lawyers make post-tax upon qualification in their first year. (Again let me remind you this is 1st year MC vs 4th year in India) So even after having 3years of gap, they are on equal footing even you compare on purchasing power terms.
And while you seem to factor in the living costs of London, youβre not doing that for Mumbai, 22 lakhs translates to 1.85 lakhs per month and rent for a decent apartment in Mumbai is 70-80k with 2.5 lakhs deposit. For London, you get a decent 2BHK canary wharf apartment for 2k GBP(that is what you need when you have a family, without family you can get a decent 1 BHK for 1300 GBP and this is for a posh area, other areas are cheaper)Use 103 INR for a Pound and youβll find that while folks in Mumbai are spending 40-50% of their salary on rent, we pay 25-30% of our salary here. Wait till you find out that the cheapest good apartment you can find when it comes to buying one is 2.5 to 3 crores.(10-12x your yearly salary) while folks in London are clearing their mortgages in 7-8 years because decent(not luxury)apartments in London are 2-3x expensive than Mumbai while we get 4-5x the salary in Mumbai, interest rates being less that half of what you get in Mumbai.
Then wait till you die in traffic while we zoom across the cycle superhighways here and change after a good gym session in the in-house gym.
See Iβm trying my best here to mention only the friendly not so racist points. You wanted figures, you got your figures.
I agree with your point though that hiring a cook here is not feasible but that can also be because unemployment has not reached that extent where un-trained people are resorting to cooking in exchange for peanuts.
Then what people are telling you about making partner after 15-16 years is a hoax, you can check the article posted on this website about Prathik Gandhi to clear your confusion. Itβs a valid point to consider partner salaries because I took the decision after considering long term implications and not the sudden surge of money. Average partner compensation in MC is 1.5M GBP, youβd know the numbers in India better.
I agree with you on points that LPC or SQE sucks and US firms are getting paid a lot, but it thatβs all you care about then you can find a place there if your workβs good here.
I have many friends in Indian Law firms and I wish them nothing but the best. Cheers.
Instead, go to some engineering college and do a master's abroad, settle down there and make loads after the first five years.
I know friends in the US raking in good moolah. At the same pace, they would end up saving considerably before and even after marriage by the time they turn 40.
Also, I made a mistake there- When you will be NQ (A0) in MC firm your counterparts will be A3 here in India. They will be earning around 23-25 Lakhs. They are easily outearning their MC peers in terms of Purchasing power capacity. You may use this living standard converter to find out that-
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=India&city2=Delhi&amount=65000.00&displayCurrency=GBP
I agree that having no life in London and having no life in Mumbai is a no brainier but not always when Mumbai is paying you significantly more than London. London certainly offers benefits like Mortgages and Cars, Mumbai offers other benefits like Doemstic help. Do you get to hire a cook easily in London? I would rather not drive a German car but get my food cooked at home by paying a meagre sum of money. Outside food is not fit for daily uses even if it is hygienic in London.
Plus, it's not appropriate to compare Partner's compensation of an MC firm and an Indian firm. Barring very few exceptions, associates make partner in London after 15-16 years out of law school (and that too not everyone) whereas in India they make partner in 9-11 years.
I checked on Legal cheek as well and found that even Managing Associates (after 5/6 years) are paid 150k-170k at Linklaters. If you compare this post tax income with Indian Principal associates you will find that the latter are easily outearning and that too significantly (Around 10 Lakhs in terms of Indian PPP).
Paying very less tax is a side benefit, haha.
Not to mention that US law firm associates in London (which are very competitive) are offering gargantuan salary to their associates. A 5 PQE at Linklaters is perhaps earning lesser than NQ at a US law firm (Kirkland) that too with equally horrible work hours.
Work hours remain equally horrible everywhere, just that compensation varies. MC lawyers may have extra respect but not money conpared to their Indian peers.
I know this much since I was offerred a TC this year and I declined it. Not because of compensation but because of SQE ans PGDL. Links and HSF are now asking their foreign joiners to do years of study post law school, write a test and then become a trainee. Essentially, 4 years after law school, I will become an A0 and start earning decently enough
Otherwise I agree with you that during the training contract, people do suffer from a financial crunch but itβs still more than enough to live comfortably just that you cannot save more than 500-600 pounds. After qualification, your figures are correct, but like I said living in London is not that expensive when you compare it with metro cities in India(especially Mumbai). You are also correct in that London offer a lot of facilities which Delhi/Mumbai donβt, then there are other factors like 3% interest on mortgages, german cars are available for 2/3 of the price in India and Italian supercars for half the price, brand new. The perks offered by MC firms are also a lot better than Indian firms like insurance, seasonal pass, 25 days no-questions asked leave and the offices are great. Office experience again depends on the team but itβs friendlier than the Indian firms I interned with. Bad internship experience was one of the reasons for the move here. Now coming to the pay figures you are giving, you can check the firms-list on legalcheek to get a rough idea as to what partners here make and then compare it to what partners in India make, I wonβt go there on numbers. I agree with you that the pay gap is not as much in the first 2 years but then the number grows exponentially. Nothing against Indian lawyers, all of us have no life but when I had the choice to have no life in Mumbai or to have no life in London, it was a no-brainer.
Your batchmates are now A2 in most Indian firms (Since you must have had a year gap followed by two years of training contract) and almost all of them are earning north of 22 Lakhs. Even after tax deduction, they will make around 20 Lakhs.
There is a clear gap of around 5 lakhs in terms of purchasing power parity. Not to mention that you earned substantially less in first 2 years as compared to your peers and you are still an A0 (NQ) while your peers are about to become Senior Associates in a year or two.
Infact, if you compare for an MC lawyer adter 5-6 years of his service, you will find this gap widened substantially. Although, in terms of absolute comparison London lawyers will always savw more because of pounds conversion rate.
So, in terms of money Indian counterparts are paid better. But, it still is a personal choice for many. None can deny the fact that london offers wasy better facilities as compared to delhi or mumbai
As Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak says in Can the Subaltern Speak: "White men are saving brown women from brown men".
And as the creator of the Simpsons recently said: "I was speaking at my sonβs school. I was talking to the Indian kids there because I wanted to get their input,...A 17-year-old boy β¦ heβs never even seen The Simpsons, but knows what Apu means. Itβs practically a slur at this point....... I apologize for my part in creating that and participating in that β¦ Part of me feels like I need to go around to every single Indian person in this country and personally apologize"
Quote: Again see above point. In England you've to be very wealthy to afford pvt insurance that entirely replaces the NHS and more.
Quote: That's on the driver and their stomping grounds are looked after more or less. Can't say the same for the rest of India.
Quote: Again, see above plus generators and tankers are cheap (for them). The rest of India be dammned.
You're aware that wealthy individuals and their families until corona resided in India right? The developing world is famously unequal.
You do know that wealthy/rich doesn't just mean Ambani, Tata, Birla etc right? You're a tiny minority just by virtue of earning enough to pay income tax.
https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/how-many-people-inindia-actually-pay-tax-income-tax-department-clarifies-pm-modis-claim/1867332
https://www.bloombergquint.com/opinion/why-so-few-indians-pay-income-tax
Indian Corporate lawyers and ex Magic Circle lawyers are very wealthy.
Cause Swades β¦
One can't afford ~~slaves~~ servants in England on Magic Circle salaries. A mere 60,000 INR per mensem will net you a whole battalion of them including a driver and cook (if bargained).
Why wouldn't one return?
Second, many return for their family. As parents get older and there's pressure for rishtas and vivaah, many end up coming back, homesick.
Thirdly, quality of work. Now this is very variable but many MC Indian lawyers are relegated to India desk matters, which can very quickly get rote and boring.
What I am more curious about is why do and I have seen a decent number of folks return back to India to work for Indian firms after working a small stint at a magic circle firm. I am not talking about folks who did not convert their training contract but about talking about associates working at these firms?