Hello, everyone, Unfortunately, we don't have enough precedents in India where someone (at a senior level - 7 PQE+) has moved out of corporate law firms and done something outside of law and been successful at it.
Personally, I would like to quit and do something different. But I will never ever get paid the same amount of money I make now elsewhere by doing something different, and options are also limited (in-house). I am stuck in the same old rut.
Set the precedent! Anyone with PQE of 7+ years would be around 29/30 which is not very old I guess. MBA is an option but I wonder if the work life would be any different at all.
I will quit soon but I do not want to leave law. As far as I remember, I have always loved law. But shitty boss and stupid work has spoilt it for me.
As far as law is concerned, I wish to move in-house for the sheer work-life balance and nice culture (specially in MNCs). Nobody will make you work on weekends. Each matter will not be tagged as urgent as there are TATs defined (with exceptions in certain matters). People management will be a skill that one will develop.
Another thing that I wish to do is to teach. May be to law college students (as a visiting faculty) or to law aspirants.
Going independent will also not be a bad thing after all. Will make clients for sure and build my practice. Will be difficult initially, as it is for everyone who starts.
Apart from law, I think I can open a small eatery/café and sell nice stuff. I am particularly excited about this one, I swear.
Don't forget to attend your 8:00 am call to discuss (i) the parked CP items (which the target claims to have completed and shared documents as part of diligence) and (ii) the feedback from the AD Bank on whether CCDs (zero coupon) issued a non-resident can boost immunity against the coronavirus.
Cut out from the April to March rat races, leave aside the social payback and travel to probably Andamans and open a shack. Cooking and serving the finest sea food. In off season, go out and travel the world or probably just live in a small hut in the mountains. Wake up in morning, go for a long run, come back and sip the coffee while reading newspaper. Write about life and my daily experience with a Pen and Paper. Teach school kids informally.
-If only it were simple. I believe the day shall come and I would be able to realize the value of life. As of now, I am in a big city creating the so called VALUE. P.S. my time shall come....
I work in a Tier and I recently got promoted to SA. I work in the general corporate practice area and my team is very very top heavy. Therefore, the scope to get promoted to the next level even in the next few years is bleak.
This last financial year was the toughest of my career. To make things worse, despite the work pressure being intense and me feeling like I've given it everything, my bonus and increment did not reflect it. Also, what irked me was that there was no feedback that I got and no clear reasons as to why I did not get what I expected.
I have genuinely started disliking the profession over the last few years and it has only become worse now. I hate the fact that I need to be available 24/7 even on weekends. I have neglected my fitness over the last year and my health has deteriorated a lot. I just feel if I put in this kind of effort in something else, there could be much more job satisfaction and at some point, there is bound to be more money also.
While a few clients have put in a good word to my partner twice or thrice, I don't think I'm an exceptional lawyer and I just don't see a great future doing this since I just find it monotonous ane I am not passionate about law in general. I can do it to pay the bills if I need to but I believe my calling is something else (not sure what it is since I've not had the time to explore anything else).
Wanted to hear get some perspectives on the following: 1. Would now be a good time to quit my job and take a 5-6 month break from law firms to do something else? If nothing works out and I have to come back to a law firm, I think I should be able to still get a law firm job.
2 . Any suggestions on options that I should consider doing during the break? I am willing to take even a 90 percent pay cut if I have to but I just want to do something more interesting. Few things that I have thought about are doing a fellowship/ internship at a VC fund or a startup (in something like CEOs office position). Any advice on how to go about getting these opportunities as a lawyer with 5 years PQE? Are there any skills that I have which may interest them?
3. I've been thinking about applying for an MBA soon- how do B school applications people outside India look at mid-career breaks?
I have been doing a bit of research on MBA. For a Top b school abroad selling the law firm story is a bit hard. you need to show why you are a good fit. becomes quite hard if you have been doing transactional work all this while.
I have nothing of value to add. Just want to say that I'm in a somewhat similar situation - looking to quit law. If anyone has ideas, please share. Thank you.
I took some time off time to understand the various industries. I have concluded that most industries which are based on individual output are more or less structured like this. There isn't much of a way around it. including consulting, banking and the likes.
However, some of them have policies such as protected weekends. So that changes a few things up.
As someone who works in corporate law and has done an MBA, if this is the path you choose, be aware that the next step for you is likely going to be management consulting. You will need to use this as a stepping stone to whatever else you wish to do. All other recruiters want prior relevant experience which you will not have. If you’re really lucky (and do the MBA in the US which has its own downsides - 2 versus 1 year and much higher cost), you may get into investment banking where the first few years will be hell (you would join as an Associate since this is the post MBA position but all the analysts below you would know much more than you so it would be a steep learning curve).
The next question is whether to do this abroad or within India. I would say unless it’s the US (or someplace like Canada which needs people) consider India. You’ll spend less and chances of mobility to a business job are higher (Indian employers don’t have to deal with visa headaches). Also given Corona etc - market sentiment etc will be down and governments will probably make it harder for employers to recruit foreigners worldwide (this has already been happening over the last 5-6 years).
Exactly. If a corporate lawyer pursues MBA, the most likely career option is management consulting. That is even more demanding and definitely with no work-life-balance. And almost same money. And worse, you spend your initial years on PPT and spreadsheets. Why would someone like to do that?
It's a classic example of- Aasmaan se tapka, khajoor pe atka. LOL
I would like to share my two cents here. I have spent most of my time as a member of Tier 1 Firm member, since I graduated from one of top NLUs about 14 years back. During this period, I have been an Associate, SA, and also a Partner (for more than 4 years - non equity). Its been almost 1.5 years since I have been on my own (non litigating corporate commercial lawyer) - with most of the time being spent under lockdown / Covid restriction and WFH. In fact, I love the WFH model. My worst month on billings for a particular month has been Rs 60k and best month Rs 750k - average earnings of Rs 450k per month. I would like to believe this can only go up in the times to come, especially as all mandates have been based on prior client relationships and referrals only and no cold calling. I cater to a mix of domestic and foreign clients, with a hourly rate ranging from Rs 8.5 k to Rs 23k. Some of the clients are on fixed fee basis - but even then I try and ensure that the hourly billing does go below Rs 7.5 k. Additionally I have a couple of monthly Retainer clients with very nominal retainer fees. Ideally I would not have accepted such mandates but on the hind sight I don't mind it at all, as in the past one year I have not spent more than 10 hours on their queries etc. This certainly takes care on of all my recurring monthly bills - electricity, internet, milkman, newspaper, petrol, etc.
So many may not like their workplace etc, but if you do love what you do, going solo is certainly an option. Its risky but worth it (risk hai to ishq hai ;), especially if you have decent savings [ I would reckon a person working in a Tier 1 /2 law firm for 10 - 12 years should have atleast Rs 60 lakhs in savings (in cash / investments).....], spouse who is working (not that I am encouraging any form of dependency here but it helps to stay slightly better focused), and / or have additional sources of income (or less expenses) as well (interest, dividends, no rentals etc).
We are certainly living in uncertain times, so go ahead and do what you love (don't be foolish though) , as you are answerable only to your good self and no body else.
Wow. Seems like a dream exit. could you please throw some more light on what practice areas (apart from litigation) allow one to go independent ? cap marks, project finance being out of the question owing to the size of the mandate.
Guys don't follow this dude. Look at his profile and the dedication he has reflected all throughout. Fourteen plus years and still going strong.
Whereas, in the question he is done right after 05 years. Initial years are generally exciting as one is learning new things. Plus one has almost no pressure to get clients and one has not yet seen the year on year repetitions of so many things. So do not compare!
I would suggest you to give some time to yourself - not free time but work on yourself. Travel as much as possible. Not necessarily something fancy. Try some good yoga/ meditation, etc. - I would suggest Isha Foundation.
These suggestions you may inculcate in your current schedule - if possible. Otherwise take a month off. Don't quit yet - consider the market situation also. You never know if you'll get another apt job. Once you are a bit sorted, you may shift - firm or career. But give yourself sometime. Don't do anything hastily.
> Don't quit yet - consider the market situation also. You never know if you'll get another apt job. Once you are a bit sorted, you may shift - firm or career. But give yourself sometime. Don't do anything hastily.
Request to all who are listening to consider these lines very carefully.
It appears most comments are from Tier 1 law firm lawyer in their first 3-5 years of practice. I am a Tier 2 law firm partner. Was mentored under a highly reputed lawyer at a mid size traditional law firm. He told me - no two matters are identical keeping the facts, law and outcome desired by the client. Being involved with many interesting matter in my initial years, I fell in love with law. Of course did not have to fill time sheet then:). I am now a partner and have managed to remain a decently performing partner for last few year, taking home more than I imagined as a college kid (70-100 lacs post tax), me and my team work very few late nights in a month (most late nights are because I love the client or the issue which needs to be dealt with), I manage to take time off on weekends (I have two kids) and I think I can continue to do this for some more years. Getting in clients, managing their expectation, billing, recovery and managing a team does have its downside. My two bits - try to enjoy law, work under a partner who can help you grow and who focusses on more than one practice area (I now do non lit, but did a fair bit of lit and non lit when I graduated), please don't compare your take home to your peers all the time. Try consider moving to a less demanding place (or less demanding team), maybe a Tier 2. By taking a 20-30% hit on your take home, you may start to see why so many lawyers love what they do. And maybe you will want to continue to do what you have studied to be. All the best!
Personally, I would like to quit and do something different. But I will never ever get paid the same amount of money I make now elsewhere by doing something different, and options are also limited (in-house). I am stuck in the same old rut.
Its a self defeating argument
Once I have enough for basic security by end of year I will move in-house or to litigation or a startup where 60-40 work life balance can be achieved
As far as law is concerned, I wish to move in-house for the sheer work-life balance and nice culture (specially in MNCs). Nobody will make you work on weekends. Each matter will not be tagged as urgent as there are TATs defined (with exceptions in certain matters). People management will be a skill that one will develop.
Another thing that I wish to do is to teach. May be to law college students (as a visiting faculty) or to law aspirants.
Going independent will also not be a bad thing after all. Will make clients for sure and build my practice. Will be difficult initially, as it is for everyone who starts.
Apart from law, I think I can open a small eatery/café and sell nice stuff. I am particularly excited about this one, I swear.
-If only it were simple. I believe the day shall come and I would be able to realize the value of life. As of now, I am in a big city creating the so called VALUE. P.S. my time shall come....
This last financial year was the toughest of my career. To make things worse, despite the work pressure being intense and me feeling like I've given it everything, my bonus and increment did not reflect it. Also, what irked me was that there was no feedback that I got and no clear reasons as to why I did not get what I expected.
I have genuinely started disliking the profession over the last few years and it has only become worse now. I hate the fact that I need to be available 24/7 even on weekends. I have neglected my fitness over the last year and my health has deteriorated a lot. I just feel if I put in this kind of effort in something else, there could be much more job satisfaction and at some point, there is bound to be more money also.
While a few clients have put in a good word to my partner twice or thrice, I don't think I'm an exceptional lawyer and I just don't see a great future doing this since I just find it monotonous ane I am not passionate about law in general. I can do it to pay the bills if I need to but I believe my calling is something else (not sure what it is since I've not had the time to explore anything else).
Wanted to hear get some perspectives on the following:
1. Would now be a good time to quit my job and take a 5-6 month break from law firms to do something else? If nothing works out and I have to come back to a law firm, I think I should be able to still get a law firm job.
2 . Any suggestions on options that I should consider doing during the break? I am willing to take even a 90 percent pay cut if I have to but I just want to do something more interesting. Few things that I have thought about are doing a fellowship/ internship at a VC fund or a startup (in something like CEOs office position). Any advice on how to go about getting these opportunities as a lawyer with 5 years PQE? Are there any skills that I have which may interest them?
3. I've been thinking about applying for an MBA soon- how do B school applications people outside India look at mid-career breaks?
However, some of them have policies such as protected weekends. So that changes a few things up.
The next question is whether to do this abroad or within India. I would say unless it’s the US (or someplace like Canada which needs people) consider India. You’ll spend less and chances of mobility to a business job are higher (Indian employers don’t have to deal with visa headaches). Also given Corona etc - market sentiment etc will be down and governments will probably make it harder for employers to recruit foreigners worldwide (this has already been happening over the last 5-6 years).
It's a classic example of- Aasmaan se tapka, khajoor pe atka. LOL
So many may not like their workplace etc, but if you do love what you do, going solo is certainly an option. Its risky but worth it (risk hai to ishq hai ;), especially if you have decent savings [ I would reckon a person working in a Tier 1 /2 law firm for 10 - 12 years should have atleast Rs 60 lakhs in savings (in cash / investments).....], spouse who is working (not that I am encouraging any form of dependency here but it helps to stay slightly better focused), and / or have additional sources of income (or less expenses) as well (interest, dividends, no rentals etc).
We are certainly living in uncertain times, so go ahead and do what you love (don't be foolish though) , as you are answerable only to your good self and no body else.
Whereas, in the question he is done right after 05 years. Initial years are generally exciting as one is learning new things. Plus one has almost no pressure to get clients and one has not yet seen the year on year repetitions of so many things. So do not compare!
I would suggest you to give some time to yourself - not free time but work on yourself. Travel as much as possible. Not necessarily something fancy. Try some good yoga/ meditation, etc. - I would suggest Isha Foundation.
These suggestions you may inculcate in your current schedule - if possible. Otherwise take a month off. Don't quit yet - consider the market situation also. You never know if you'll get another apt job. Once you are a bit sorted, you may shift - firm or career. But give yourself sometime. Don't do anything hastily.
All the best!
Request to all who are listening to consider these lines very carefully.
I am a Tier 2 law firm partner. Was mentored under a highly reputed lawyer at a mid size traditional law firm. He told me - no two matters are identical keeping the facts, law and outcome desired by the client. Being involved with many interesting matter in my initial years, I fell in love with law. Of course did not have to fill time sheet then:). I am now a partner and have managed to remain a decently performing partner for last few year, taking home more than I imagined as a college kid (70-100 lacs post tax), me and my team work very few late nights in a month (most late nights are because I love the client or the issue which needs to be dealt with), I manage to take time off on weekends (I have two kids) and I think I can continue to do this for some more years. Getting in clients, managing their expectation, billing, recovery and managing a team does have its downside.
My two bits - try to enjoy law, work under a partner who can help you grow and who focusses on more than one practice area (I now do non lit, but did a fair bit of lit and non lit when I graduated), please don't compare your take home to your peers all the time. Try consider moving to a less demanding place (or less demanding team), maybe a Tier 2. By taking a 20-30% hit on your take home, you may start to see why so many lawyers love what they do. And maybe you will want to continue to do what you have studied to be. All the best!