I have not verified this and I am hoping its not true. There is a WhatsApp rumour doing the rounds that a 2020 batch graduate of a prominent NLU working at a big law firm passed away today morning due to a heart attack while he was working on a DD. Apparently, their college has declared a holiday while work goes on in that Law firm as usual. Does anyone know if this is true? Its extremely saddening that such a young person has lost their life.
If the photo doing the rounds is to be believed, the deceased was made to work till 3 am on some diligence despite knowing that he had health issues. Even if he didn’t have health issues, the expectation that these long hours have to be pulled goes beyond the realm of ridiculous into inhumane.
Request anyone who wants to snarkily comment ‘hurrr durr enjoy your money or leave someone else is more than willing to take your spot’ to kindly go back to sticking their heads in the sand.
To the rest, please wake up and smell the coffee. This greed to line the pockets of upper management is coming at a real human cost. This poor chap paid the price way too soon but without a doubt it’ll come for all of us.
Firms either need to self regulate or the government should step in. Are humane working conditions (by this I mean working hours that don’t extend beyond ten hours a day) really that difficult to provide?
I totally agree on the need for regulation. There are partners in law firms who are known for setting unrealistic deadlines just to please clients, whether or not the matter at hand is actually urgent. The working hours and work pressure (every deliverable is needed - NOW!/YESTERDAY!) in some teams is downright abusive and you will find that most of these teams have an unusually high attrition rate.
Also, if the allegation regarding the A0 working at 3 am on a DD is true, the partner in charge needs to take responsibility. After all, why else does a hierarchy of command exist in organisations such as law firms. Greater the power/discretion, greater the responsibility.
Not just Partners, in most cases, it is the arrogant, self centred and crazy PAs who keep harrassing the Junior Associates and Associates in order to make name in front of the Partners and Senior Partners that they are capable of delivering documents in no time. No firm is different. No Tier 1 including KCO. Stress, anxiety, panic attacks are very real in big law. If you bring it up to the Partner, they'll ask you to take medical intervention because "work cannot cause anxiety". PAs are indispensable so nobody will target them.
Senior Partners (not just by nomenclature but experience) have seen the world and do not go bonkers in situations of distress. But PAs, let me tell you, will make your life hell if you make one mistake or miss deadline by a few hours.
Most I deal with are neurotic and hyper. What more, they can be brutal, many a times, they would at 8pm say they need xyz deliverable for review early in the morning. This is across the board.
I have one or 2 sleepless nights in a week for sure, that too unnecessarily. I consume a lot of coffee and sugar to stay awake. I think I am gonna end up diabetic and also suffer from arrhythmia. Well I guess a part of the fees I get paid can be used to pay for treatment. Come to think of it, I may have another sleepless night tonight.
But I digress.. I don't even know this kid, but I have been feeling extremely sad after reading about this, so sad that I almost teared up now while typing. This is fucking insane man. Infuriating.
I agree with you completely. I worked at a known law firm and the PA and associates treated me awfully, to the point I just wanted to die. I reported about the culture to the partner in charge and yet it fell on deaf ears. I recently decided to leave the firm and am blissful in seeking healthier opportunities.
This is correct , one of my friend who is working in the same firm have admitted this fact & he him self is looking for new job...as per him there is huge pressure put by the firm & harrasment by partner.
We could not get #JusticeForSSR. Now let's find another target by putting up WhatsApp rumours on Legally India and then doing some CYA by saying "I have not verified this and I am hoping its not true..."
>We lawyers, bankers, corporate employees, are not jawans in the battlefront. If a deal or a board meeting happen 3 days later, 99 out of 100 times, nothing will fall out of the sky. For the other time, it is worth the delay.
You forget something far more important. Shareholder money is at stake. Funds, that could be invested into a company to earn superior returns are literally rotting away in a bank account depriving fat cat shareholders of additional value that sub-par interest income cannot hope to match.
Nothing is more important than ensuring that a Fund's LP can afford his next Rolls Royce. Law firm associates be damned.
The tier 1 / 2 firms, normalising and regularising 15+ hour work days, are to blame. Not a single firm, but all of them who are in the race to the bottom at the cost of replaceable employees are to blame. No mistakes here.
At the cost of sounding dramatic and ridiculous, law firm associates at all levels are expected to behave in a manner which puts workers in the pre-industrial revolution stage feel like compatriots.
While I try to be understanding to the needs of my juniors, i hope to be much better. I also hope to improve upon the treatment i met out to myself to meet never ending deadlines. Most importantly, I sincerely hope, that the law firm managements (across firms) - all of them (i) stop the race to become a bottom feeder, and (ii) as a group, stand up to clients and say that work will only happen 5 days a week, 10 hours a day. No exceptions. If that extends deal timelines so be it.
We lawyers, bankers, corporate employees, are not jawans in the battlefront. If a deal or a board meeting happen 3 days later, 99 out of 100 times, nothing will fall out of the sky. For the other time, it is worth the delay.
This is absolutely devastating! I don't want to put all law firms in the same basket but most law firms are insensitive in dealing with health conditions, be it mental or otherwise. The so called partners of big firms who equate themselves as 'SUPERHUMAN' have a callous disregard to basic human rights while dealing with such issues. The criteria of becoming a partner should not be only based on the book size but also on how a senior handles the team as well as on his soft skills.
If the practice to work all night has been there since time immemorial, it is high time to change the practice. If your senior says that he has has done that, be that as it may, he made the wrong choice and it should not be practiced by the succeeding generations of lawyers .
The culture of 'send the draft by tonight' should stop.
My friend see you on the other side! May your family get the strength to bear this irreparable loss.
Hello everyone. I'm working with a tier 1 firm ( tier 1 not just in salary but unexpected deadlines, deprivation of sleep and little care for health).
The firm people are like us or maybe they pretend like us but the reality is the legal fraternity has been glorifying people who don't sleep or have less sleep and equate it with efficiency. I deliver decent work ( or at least I try to give full dedication) within deadlines and the result has been disappointing as my efficiency has led to more allocation of work and more all-nighters I really wish we start owning it and collective put accountability on these law firms.
This hits me. Om Shant, brother. I haven't felt good about myself ever since I joined my firm. Maybe, this firm life isn't for us normal folks. I hope your family finds strength in these trying times. It's so damn tragic.
Very tragic, our condolences to his family and friends. The full details are apparently not currently known yet and several different accounts have been floating around on social media.
I'm a batch of 2020 graduate and this makes me want to leave law altogether even more. Law firms are extremely toxic. If only the kid in me wanted something more than to enter a law firm five years back.
This culture needs to stop! over time and working on weekend is not cool and need to be glorified. Law firms are turning into vultures who prey on retainers NOT EMPLOYEE under the vague retainer agreement. These are the sad reality of almost all big law firms:
- no work life balance - no benefits - expectation to work overtime - BONUS only if you work overtime and generate bills - strict deadlines - inhumanity - no respect of an individual - reporting each thing to 10 people - micromanagement -expectation to be in office even when whole city is flooding - excessive scolding and slangs for minor things
Moreover, they have crossed all boundaries during work from home. A person is expected to check mails 24x7 and work day and night. There is no time for family , friends, hobbies or simple relaxation. These law firms care the least about the lawyers, they expect people to be in city with highest covid cases. This requires a collective effort from all the lawyers, simply say NO to these practices. Don't tolerate this for money, it is not more important than your health , life and family.
L&L extended its working hours when implementing WFH. Rationale being that the time spent traveling to and fro would be saved and should be added to the firm's time.
It’s really saddening that someone so young lost his life at the altar of “send this ASAP/ what’s taking so long/ you need to step your game up if you want a good review/ it’s always been like this, slog or perish”.
Everyone who works at a law firm knows, and cannot deny, that there are innumerable instances where human dignity is crushed by unnecessary meanness and artificial pressure created by seniors. As someone who knew Devansh, the least that may be said for him was that he was strong willed and had conviction, zest to make a life for himself. It will be shameful if no responsibility is taken by the people who thought that work merited higher importance than someone’s health, someone’s peace, someone’s dignity.
If this loss is not seen as a horrendous, horrendous (repetition is intentional to indicate disgust) violation of basic human rights, the I don’t know what else is left to be seen. I have interacted with him in the past, and he was a bright, forward looking person, with dreams for himself. I shudder to think what must have transpired so as to render such pressure on someone who was so eager to join the firm, when we was placed.
While I’m not sure what (concrete) steps will be taken in relation to this, the last thing that may be expected is that the firms in general acknowledge this toxicity, and realise that life is more than bonus, billables, clocking ghastly hours AND rewarding people for this. The meaner you are as a senior, the more “successful” you look. Humiliate juniors, crush their will to work, scream at them for mistakes or delayed emails, and calmly tell yourself “we went through this, too bad you can’t” to go to sleep at night.
It’s time people at law firms realise that basic kindness, care and sensitivity will NOT reduce your billables, your “fierce” reputation as a scary senior, or your image in front of partners. But yes, it will smear your conscience, your humaneness (things that law firms often consider as “attributes of the weak/obsolete”).
I would be surprised if the people who might have triggered this kind of pressure for this kid would be okay to continue working (or may be that’s what law firms are creating, monstrous machines bereft of bare minimum sensitivity). There should be a very cognisant effort at all law firms to ensure that there are people that may be reached out to, in case someone is drowning in unrealistic work expectation, harassment, bullying or any such corrosive behaviour that is otherwise rewarded by law firms.
My heart pains amongst all the remembrance for him and his enthusiasm to “make it at a top law firm”; and is ashamed of the system that failed him, the people who failed him, left him burdened, so much so to lead to this unfortunate mishap.
To all law firm people who might read this, if you don’t already do this (and I hope you do), please, please be kinder, more caring and helpful to everyone around you. While people may have “conditions” (physical or mental) or may be going through their own struggles, it’s always nice to remember that after all, ITS ONLY WORK, and not life!
His parents lost a son, some people lost a friend.
What's even WORSE is this - KCO released vacancy for the Banking and Finance on that very day! Here we go, this proves the saying that the law firm associates who slog throughout every living minute to fulfil their partner's whims can be replaced within a day, even if the exit was due to the person passing away!
This is sad. very sad. I think it is a Partner to Partner problem. The disputes partners here talk about sleepless nights like an achievement. calls go way into the night. a couple of colleagues have had nervous breakdowns, some others have been crying at home.
all the bosses want is more billing and more increment. Not one person talks about or even addresses the problem. If people are not dying they are being broken. ****ing vultures without a moral code.
Tier I firms need to change the way they operate, period. WFH is no excuse to make the junior associates work till 3 am on a regular basis by heaping multiple assignments deliverable "EOD" where one goes on working till next morning to meet those unrealistic deadlines - there is no work that is worth the sacrifice of mental and physical well-being. It is inhumane to expect associates to regularise themselves to such working conditions where one with health issues isn't given rest on medical leaves, and the situation is not helped by seniors who glorify situations of having worked 1 week straight without sleep on "a crazy deal", or months together with 90 hrs/week. Freshers joining a firm have no say in which team they will join so it is not easy to "switch" to a better team, especially when one has less than 6 months of experience.
Tier I firms are supposed to be the best in terms of both exposure and pay, but the team culture is toxic if unchecked by the firm management. Just because this is how the field has been in the last decade or so and the billings are moving upward is no justification for playing with people's lives.
I was in [...] for 5 months in a Banking team. It was horrible. I remember working on DDs over weekends and pulling all nighters. My PA was a horrible person who was let go later (I am not sure of the reason as this happened after I quit). She used to sit right behind me and could see my computer screen. The moment she would see that I don't have a document open on my screen she willl give me work. [...]
As of now, there is absolutely no evidence to show that work pressure led to this tragic incident. The articles in fact say that the associate had a congenial heart disease. Maybe let's hold on and get all the facts before using this terrible tragedy as an opportunity to bash tier 1 culture?
When we periodically get news like this, a common reaction is to say that there is life behind law firms, money is not everything etc. But a big part of the problem is that parents and peers are obsessed with law firms and pay packages. They do not believe one can have fulfilling careers elsewhere. Even Legally India compares placements by number of "Big 7" offers, which get more "points" than even a Rhodes scholarship! I can count on one hand the number of alternative career stories that LI has done. This type of obsession is especially harmful for middle-class students from small towns, who lack exposure and awareness about alternative careers. Unless this perception by parent/peers/media changes then nothing will change.
LI will continue to to cover law firms more than other careers, so no point. SuperLawyer does a decent job, but it's not news-focused but interview-focused.
I see a great generalizing of this happening here. Law firms demand those excruciating hours. You have your good days and your bad days. It's horrifying and yet rewarding at the same time. Any final year law student would be aware of the demanding hours, caffeine overdose and work culture (to an extent) before they enter into this profession. Can it be made better? Absolutely yes. Is it being made better? No. But that's not my point here.
[...] I've heard stories of 'seniors' who routinely torment their juniors (especially freshers). It all starts with work-related stuff (to maintain the guise) and gradually transitions into routine bullying, verbal abuse, and threats of physical violence as well maybe (completely ignoring the long work hours aside here). They probably do this to maintain an image of someone who should be taken seriously in the office and probably in life (great way to deal with your childhood issues Sir), and a direct consequence of the problems in their own personal life. This goes on until the junior either gives up on the profession altogether courtesy of several anxiety attacks, self loathing, depression, PTSD and what not.
There's a need for a major checks and balances here on part of the HR department. Internal enquiries should be conducted. Hopefully, there aren't more of such incidents in the future.
Even NIRF rankings are biased because they ask for value of the package in monetary terms, which means NLUs with lots of law firm offers will max the job parameter while an NLU batch where 5% prepare for UPSC, 10% join lawyers chambers, 5% join NGOs and 5% join academics will lose out. This is keeping NLUD away from the #1 slot.
It's important that those working at law firms develop the habit of smart saving(s) and investment(s) and reduce wasteful expenditure, so that they may exit when the lifestyle becomes unsustainable. I don't think the money minded law firms are going to change the way they operate, unless forced to by rules/ regulations.
All the law firm peeps complaining about toxic work cultures in their/other firms and demanding that the government or law firm management do something about it - I have a couple of questions for you - 1. Why the hell don't you leave? & 2. Do you know anything about basic economics? Stop demanding shit from the government. Labour is a commodity. The ONLY thing which will force the firms to change is that if they start losing enough talent due to their culture. As long as they have a steady stream of people coming in and staying long enough every year, why would they ever change? No law mandates, say, a company like Google to give so many perks to it's employees. But, they do it nonetheless because they want to compete in the market to attract the best talent. As long as Big Law has talented idiots to keep working for them, they will not change. Seek out less pressure avenues in the career of law or get out of law. So the firms have to start doing better to attract talent. But don't start saying stupid shit like the government should do something.
In the monsoon season of 2017, when one day whole of Mumbai was flooded n jammed, one fresher in CAM was scolded n made to feel very guilty for not coming to office by her senior who stayed close by to the office, coz she could not locate some papers n files kept by her junior. Maybe she should have provided helicopter service ?
You haven't heard of a famous walk out by a junior against a LnL [...] partner? Quite a few law firm 'partners' are full of cr@p & a big mental health hazard to people around.
The partner I am referring to is a part of the MS segment. As for elaborating, the junior shouted her mind out at the cabin's partner and walked out. This is more than 5 years old.
Not surprising, all 3 associates were quite smart and unwilling to put up with that kind of bullshit. And despite open threats by this partner in question of never getting another job again (all of us at the office in other teams also heard him openly yell this), two of them are in other Tier 1 firms and the third is doing a foreign LLM.
It seems the sole purpose of law schools is to provide an endless stream of lawyers that only serve corporate giants. Unfortunately, we are encouraged to seek for a job rather than doing something innovative or entrepreneurial. Many bright minds leave their conscience at work to pursue corporate law firm life, and I think we need to start questioning what the use of a law degree is anymore. Cuz truth be told law firms are a form of business. There are a variety of different businesses that exist where you don't have to crush your soul to work for someone else.
I remember an average lawyer who had joined a magic circle law firm in Singapore from a bank in India and believed that he could bring his bullying tactics and average work skills to the firm. He bullied his juniors , got them to leave because of his lack of confidence. Need less to say this lawyer did not make Partner and lady heard, he had started some [...]. It’s not law firms but the insecure people working there who need to be trained.
Request anyone who wants to snarkily comment ‘hurrr durr enjoy your money or leave someone else is more than willing to take your spot’ to kindly go back to sticking their heads in the sand.
To the rest, please wake up and smell the coffee. This greed to line the pockets of upper management is coming at a real human cost. This poor chap paid the price way too soon but without a doubt it’ll come for all of us.
Firms either need to self regulate or the government should step in. Are humane working conditions (by this I mean working hours that don’t extend beyond ten hours a day) really that difficult to provide?
Also, if the allegation regarding the A0 working at 3 am on a DD is true, the partner in charge needs to take responsibility. After all, why else does a hierarchy of command exist in organisations such as law firms. Greater the power/discretion, greater the responsibility.
Stress, anxiety, panic attacks are very real in big law. If you bring it up to the Partner, they'll ask you to take medical intervention because "work cannot cause anxiety". PAs are indispensable so nobody will target them.
Senior Partners (not just by nomenclature but experience) have seen the world and do not go bonkers in situations of distress. But PAs, let me tell you, will make your life hell if you make one mistake or miss deadline by a few hours.
Most I deal with are neurotic and hyper. What more, they can be brutal, many a times, they would at 8pm say they need xyz deliverable for review early in the morning. This is across the board.
I have one or 2 sleepless nights in a week for sure, that too unnecessarily. I consume a lot of coffee and sugar to stay awake. I think I am gonna end up diabetic and also suffer from arrhythmia. Well I guess a part of the fees I get paid can be used to pay for treatment. Come to think of it, I may have another sleepless night tonight.
But I digress.. I don't even know this kid, but I have been feeling extremely sad after reading about this, so sad that I almost teared up now while typing. This is fucking insane man. Infuriating.
We could not get #JusticeForSSR. Now let's find another target by putting up WhatsApp rumours on Legally India and then doing some CYA by saying "I have not verified this and I am hoping its not true..."
You forget something far more important. Shareholder money is at stake. Funds, that could be invested into a company to earn superior returns are literally rotting away in a bank account depriving fat cat shareholders of additional value that sub-par interest income cannot hope to match.
Nothing is more important than ensuring that a Fund's LP can afford his next Rolls Royce. Law firm associates be damned.
The tier 1 / 2 firms, normalising and regularising 15+ hour work days, are to blame. Not a single firm, but all of them who are in the race to the bottom at the cost of replaceable employees are to blame. No mistakes here.
At the cost of sounding dramatic and ridiculous, law firm associates at all levels are expected to behave in a manner which puts workers in the pre-industrial revolution stage feel like compatriots.
While I try to be understanding to the needs of my juniors, i hope to be much better. I also hope to improve upon the treatment i met out to myself to meet never ending deadlines. Most importantly, I sincerely hope, that the law firm managements (across firms) - all of them (i) stop the race to become a bottom feeder, and (ii) as a group, stand up to clients and say that work will only happen 5 days a week, 10 hours a day. No exceptions. If that extends deal timelines so be it.
We lawyers, bankers, corporate employees, are not jawans in the battlefront. If a deal or a board meeting happen 3 days later, 99 out of 100 times, nothing will fall out of the sky. For the other time, it is worth the delay.
Om Shanti.
If the practice to work all night has been there since time immemorial, it is high time to change the practice. If your senior says that he has has done that, be that as it may, he made the wrong choice and it should not be practiced by the succeeding generations of lawyers .
The culture of 'send the draft by tonight' should stop.
My friend see you on the other side! May your family get the strength to bear this irreparable loss.
The firm people are like us or maybe they pretend like us but the reality is the legal fraternity has been glorifying people who don't sleep or have less sleep and equate it with efficiency. I deliver decent work ( or at least I try to give full dedication) within deadlines and the result has been disappointing as my efficiency has led to more allocation of work and more all-nighters I really wish we start owning it and collective put accountability on these law firms.
All firms are the same
This is unforgiveable
For the time being, this is the official statement: https://www.legallyindia.com/lawfirms/r-i-p-khaitan-1st-year-nliu-2020-batch-devansh-srivastava-passes-away-after-cardiac-arrest-20210316-11997
- no work life balance
- no benefits
- expectation to work overtime
- BONUS only if you work overtime and generate bills
- strict deadlines
- inhumanity
- no respect of an individual
- reporting each thing to 10 people
- micromanagement
-expectation to be in office even when whole city is flooding
- excessive scolding and slangs for minor things
Moreover, they have crossed all boundaries during work from home. A person is expected to check mails 24x7 and work day and night. There is no time for family , friends, hobbies or simple relaxation. These law firms care the least about the lawyers, they expect people to be in city with highest covid cases. This requires a collective effort from all the lawyers, simply say NO to these practices.
Don't tolerate this for money, it is not more important than your health , life and family.
This is not true.
Everyone who works at a law firm knows, and cannot deny, that there are innumerable instances where human dignity is crushed by unnecessary meanness and artificial pressure created by seniors. As someone who knew Devansh, the least that may be said for him was that he was strong willed and had conviction, zest to make a life for himself.
It will be shameful if no responsibility is taken by the people who thought that work merited higher importance than someone’s health, someone’s peace, someone’s dignity.
If this loss is not seen as a horrendous, horrendous (repetition is intentional to indicate disgust) violation of basic human rights, the I don’t know what else is left to be seen.
I have interacted with him in the past, and he was a bright, forward looking person, with dreams for himself. I shudder to think what must have transpired so as to render such pressure on someone who was so eager to join the firm, when we was placed.
While I’m not sure what (concrete) steps will be taken in relation to this, the last thing that may be expected is that the firms in general acknowledge this toxicity, and realise that life is more than bonus, billables, clocking ghastly hours AND rewarding people for this.
The meaner you are as a senior, the more “successful” you look. Humiliate juniors, crush their will to work, scream at them for mistakes or delayed emails, and calmly tell yourself “we went through this, too bad you can’t” to go to sleep at night.
It’s time people at law firms realise that basic kindness, care and sensitivity will NOT reduce your billables, your “fierce” reputation as a scary senior, or your image in front of partners. But yes, it will smear your conscience, your humaneness (things that law firms often consider as “attributes of the weak/obsolete”).
I would be surprised if the people who might have triggered this kind of pressure for this kid would be okay to continue working (or may be that’s what law firms are creating, monstrous machines bereft of bare minimum sensitivity).
There should be a very cognisant effort at all law firms to ensure that there are people that may be reached out to, in case someone is drowning in unrealistic work expectation, harassment, bullying or any such corrosive behaviour that is otherwise rewarded by law firms.
My heart pains amongst all the remembrance for him and his enthusiasm to “make it at a top law firm”; and is ashamed of the system that failed him, the people who failed him, left him burdened, so much so to lead to this unfortunate mishap.
To all law firm people who might read this, if you don’t already do this (and I hope you do), please, please be kinder, more caring and helpful to everyone around you. While people may have “conditions” (physical or mental) or may be going through their own struggles, it’s always nice to remember that after all, ITS ONLY WORK, and not life!
His parents lost a son, some people lost a friend.
Ridiculous.
all the bosses want is more billing and more increment. Not one person talks about or even addresses the problem. If people are not dying they are being broken. ****ing vultures without a moral code.
Tier I firms are supposed to be the best in terms of both exposure and pay, but the team culture is toxic if unchecked by the firm management. Just because this is how the field has been in the last decade or so and the billings are moving upward is no justification for playing with people's lives.
[...] I've heard stories of 'seniors' who routinely torment their juniors (especially freshers). It all starts with work-related stuff (to maintain the guise) and gradually transitions into routine bullying, verbal abuse, and threats of physical violence as well maybe (completely ignoring the long work hours aside here). They probably do this to maintain an image of someone who should be taken seriously in the office and probably in life (great way to deal with your childhood issues Sir), and a direct consequence of the problems in their own personal life. This goes on until the junior either gives up on the profession altogether courtesy of several anxiety attacks, self loathing, depression, PTSD and what not.
There's a need for a major checks and balances here on part of the HR department. Internal enquiries should be conducted. Hopefully, there aren't more of such incidents in the future.
No law mandates, say, a company like Google to give so many perks to it's employees. But, they do it nonetheless because they want to compete in the market to attract the best talent. As long as Big Law has talented idiots to keep working for them, they will not change. Seek out less pressure avenues in the career of law or get out of law. So the firms have to start doing better to attract talent. But don't start saying stupid shit like the government should do something.
Maybe she should have provided helicopter service ?
Quite a few law firm 'partners' are full of cr@p & a big mental health hazard to people around.
As for elaborating, the junior shouted her mind out at the cabin's partner and walked out. This is more than 5 years old.