How common is firing of associates in law firms? Till what degree does someone has mess it up to get fired? I haven't heard of any instances of someone getting fired
Highkey interested to know. Would help a lot knowing exactly how afraid one should be when joining as an A0 lol. Not that this changes how much effort we make to grow, just puts the anxiety in perspective to have a realistic idea.
A0s almost never get fired, because they're not given work important enough that messing up can cause a tangible impact. A3 onwards your job isn't quite as secure.
You will not be fired unless you commit a gross and irreversible error or something illegal. They would just make your life hell, stop promotions, bonus etc. so that you quit on your own.
Not really. Some firms fire for the silliest reasons during bonus and increment to save money. Knowing whether to fear or no really depends on the firm than work.
Majmudar fires everyone even without valid reasons. Associates are paid 20-30k and then fired when an increment or bonus payment comes up. One junior girl I don't wish to name was fired on her first day!
Is it true that a certain lit partner with origins in a South Indian state [...] is particularly toxic and juniors are known to have "spot resigned" due to his constant bullying ?
I don't think people like you understand the concept of an online discussion board/forum. Comments on half the new comments posted these days have been "why should I tell you" or "why do you want to know". Abey, if you don't have anything to contribute, then stay away na?
I was with one of the most sought after law firms some years ago. The hiring that happened in my team was disproportionate to the work it had. I would go to the extent of saying that the hiring I witnessed back then was rather directionless. I was, nevertheless, excited about this firm's 'up and coming' profile and my future there, which saw an abrupt and unfortunate end - when I reached out to my supervising partner, informing this partner of not having much work. I was reminded of my every omission and shortcoming and advised to resign. This conversation left me feeling worthless and depressed. The embarrassment of being told by former colleagues/ staff - what happened to you wasn't right or fair offered little solace and came as a fresh slap on my face. I was seen as "damaged goods" in the job market, and there was no escaping it. It took a lot of effort and initiative to keep going.
To those of you who are experiencing anything close to this, my advice is as follows - believe in yourself, you've got this. You will, with time, find your niche and people. Trust the process. Work hard. Most importantly, be careful of the criticism that you take to heart. If the criticism isn't constructive and is a flimsy attack on your self-worth and defines where you belong, trash it right there. It doesn't deserve your time.
Not exactly, but same thing happened to me in a different way. I was randomly taken off a few matters, and every single mistake was pointed out. Credit was not given where it was due. Hints were dropped and it was made so obvious that I had to go, else, I would have been asked to go. Still jobless. Been rejected at nearly 7 firms after having made it to the interview stage. Feeling down and out.
PS: Anyone with a constructive suggestion or a way out to help, please get in touch. Those who wish to say things on the lines of "you are incompetent", "it is shameful that you could not land an offer anywhere even after so many interviews", "you are not cut out for this profession", etc., etc., please do not reply. So much of negativity already. The last thing I need is more of it.
That sounds really unlucky. It sounds like your CV is good enough to get your foot in the door, which is the hardest part. Do you feel like it was your interview performance that could improve or just bad luck? Maybe there are some ways to brush up your interviewing skills, maybe practising some mock interviews with a friend or former colleagues who you are on good terms with?
Also consider: are you still into the law as a profession and want to make it work, or have you also considered other career options or jobs in other fields? Sometimes working somewhere else for a little while can give some good perspective, and you can return to the law after some wider-world corporate experience also.
On a couple of occasions, it was my interview performance. But I made improvements, read up further on the law, and answered technical questions better. But even in the interviews where I answered technical questions correctly, I was rejected saying that an offer commensurate to my skills and experience cannot be made. So to answer your question, it has been really bad luck for the most part. Left me wondering why I was even interviewed in the first place if they were looking for someone with more experience. And if everyone keeps saying more experience, and refuse to take me in, how will I ever learn the practical aspects ? How will I grow ? Also, with regards my interview performance, this was the same interview performance which got me in to my previous organisation.
I do not want to leave Law, but if so many rejections are coming my way, I don't think I would have much of a choice.
You're in a bit of a catch 22, yes, but it really does sound like you're doing everything right and are just unlucky... Like in many areas of life, people might be unlucky for a while, but if you persevere and keep putting yourself out there, good things can / will happen.
Would apply to things like dating or JK Rowling getting rejected by publishers repeatedly initially...
So if you're passionate about law as a career, keep at it and keep applying even if it's not tier 1, see if you can do some litigation work in the meantime spending time in court, while you're waiting for a corporate job, or volunteer a legal NGO or otherwise fill your time and CV while you wait.
I will follow the steps that you have mentioned to the best extent possible. Trying my best to land something. Will definitely keep you posted should something good come my way. Thank you so much for the kind words.
You sound like you are from Khaitan. They hired in bulk to cross the number of 1000 for their 111 year anniversary and have been firing lawyers all over now without having work. Really sick of them to push out for ulterior motives. Don't feel disheartened. I've heard this about having a tough time there and being tortured to leave. Don't worry you'll do well. Even if not from Khaitan, imagine what's happening with them. You'll be fine. Just keep up your confidence. All the best
While I have heard from a lot of people that CAM, SAM, AZB, Tri keep firing people, I have never heard anyone say that KCO fires people. Not doubting what you say, but everyone I meet from KCO has said that it is a great place etc. I am sorry to hear that this is happening to them. I had interviewed with KCO earlier this year, and did not make it inspite having answered the technical questions correctly. But after hearing what you said, I feel relieved.
Don't worry bro. You'll do great! 💕 Apni haar me jitna neeche giroge, apni kamyabi me utna uncha uthoge. Sab theek ho jayega. ♥️ The darkest minute of the day is right before the sunrise. Just keep trying and wait. Something big is going to happen. 💕
I was fired as an A2 and it was my rock bottom moment in life. The partner I worked for, a Banking and Finance partner at a Tier 1 had a habit of hiring indiscriminately with joining bonuses, 30% pay hikes, the whole package. What I didn't realise was that he was simply poor at managing resources and hired a bunch of people when they had some active mandates and then fired them when work was slow. After my exit I asked around and found out that the team had fired some 6 odd people in 2.5 years.
Was this CaM or AZB, where you BARKING...oops... Banking and Finance partner fired you for no fault of yours?Give name of firm or at least partner.No one wants to land up at such firm key team,even by mistake.
In your first few years, all your seniors want to see is a good attitude, dedication, hardwork, and ability to put in the hours when necessary and for you to be conscientious. You should be able to absorb like a sponge and ask questions when you don't fully understand something. If you're a genius, then that's a bonus, but that's not what is expected when you first join.
The next few years after that is where you will be expected to start with the real "legal" work. Good drafting, good understanding of the basics you've picked up and how to come up with innovative solutions. This is the separating grain from the chaff phase. Some will excel. Others may not. But again, if the basics are all there - good attitude, dedication, hardwork, and ability to put in the hours when necessary and for you to be conscientious - noone will fire you especially at this stage when the grunt work of training you up has already happened.
Believe me when I say this: noone wants to fire anybody unless there's absolutely no work around. The pandemic may have cut down on business for a few firms, but even then people would not have let go of anyone, unless they were already on shaky ground before.
The firm should be named and all NLUs unitedly should blacklist this firm from recruiting associates from their campuses.The problem is that people don't speak out because of such firing but really some firms can be just obnoxious.
At the same time, why not also name the lawyers? So that the firms can also know who have been fired ?
The entitlement to be in a job is astonishing.
Instances where people hired more and then let go, is irresponsible but where there may be real issues of performance- what do you expect an institution to do? Hire/retain for CSR?
If someone was fired for no fault of theirs and only on the basis of relying on seniors' feedback, naming the person asked to leave would be unfair, as that could lead to them not getting a job anywhere else. This affects not only their career, but many of them might be sole breadwinners for their families, so implementing what you said could rob many families of their income. This is extremely cruel.
Don’t worry - it’s hard to get fired unless my make a major mistake but even if it does happen it isn’t the end of the world. There is life beyond a bad year, a bad transaction, a bad day. Even if you aren’t very good at something and it isn’t feasible for a firm to keep you on, it isn’t a reflection of your value in this world. It’s important not to equate the two even though a lot of people do so, specially at firms. But there is a life outside the cubicles and cabins and it will go on no matter what. Besides those who excel at firm life aren’t necessarily making waves in the world. If you aren’t good at being a law firm lawyer, it isn’t a big deal imho.
I know of one Lala firm that fires associates recklessly and ruthlessly for mistakes in disputes/litigation matters.The problem in all these firings is that the partner and PA should be getting fired.Instead the PA is promoted to partner,partner to senior partner and the associates are getting fired for the shit job of these two in the disputes matter.
Nobody pays as much as law firms, and if you need to build a life, then you need the cash. So make sure that you bootlick that senior of yours. It's important.
It is difficult to get fired if you have a decent heart, are hardworking and don't f*** around.
Dishonesty or Disinterest are two red flags. If either of these two behaviour patterns manifest continuously over time and there is no improvement despite warnings, I throw the person out on the spot.
Aaaiye Sir. Aap hi ka intezaar tha. Typical to blame your frustrations and inefficiencies on poor A0's and A1's and projecting it as their dishonesty or disinterest. There is an abundance of people like you in all law firms.
Beta, I suggest you read a little more closely what I wrote. There is no inefficiency on the part of my firm that results in such a firing. What were the two causal factors I mentioned? Dishonesty / Disinterest. These are purely internal and not dependent on any externality. If you really think any person will tolerate either of these two behaviour patterns, all I can say is best of luck in life as your education and upbringing has clearly been an utter failure.
Chacha, I read what you wrote. I still stick to what I wrote. These days in firms, anything and everything is labelled as dishonesty and disinterest. Quite difficult to believe that the partner, PA, SA are always speaking the truth and the associate is lying. One always needs to listen to both sides of the story and not blindly believe what the senior has to say. Plus, the kind of language and personal attack you have used in your comment clearly shows that your firm is toxic and a pathetic place to be in which should be avoided at all costs. In your case, while your education and upbringing are an utter failure, and I cannot even blame your parents, they must have tried their best to bring you to the right path, but you did not listen to them, let me tell you, your firm is also going to be an utter failure and will be laughing stock in the market sooner than later. Your personal credibility will take a massive beating, watch out.
Dear equity partner, after reading your generous thoughts over culture and stuff. I personally feel you are not only old but also ancient in your thoughts. You might as well switch to type writer culture since you must be having problems with new age technologies. But nahi waha toh hypocrisy hai. Sometimes people like you remind me dialogue from Fukrey "Hum toh takhti vale school mein padte the". Woh karchi ghuma raha hai aur ap hmko.
Dear OTT, would you tolerate someone who is dishonest or disinterested in you in your personal life? Why would that be any different professionally? Don’t be reactionary and blindly conform to whatever archetype that society has taught you to. It is still not too late for you to have independent thought beta.
Dear Equity Partner, dishonesty or disinterested are very subjective terms which are usually based on some hypothetical and mathematical figures in the law firm. Just because someone has to attend to family emergency that does not mean he is disinterested and I can disclose many firms who will literally fire an associate on this ground only by flaging "Disinterested". The second word "Dishonesty" is again an excuse used by firms to remove hard working associates like failure to complete entire DD report in 1 day along with draft emails etc are termed as dishonesty towards work. Work is not life and vice versa. And please don't worry about my independent thoughts since unlike you I am in a job where I can spare some time to work on myself. Please don't waste your time here, client ro dega apka.
(P.S.- Bio thoda change karna pada apka beta2 sunkar, first generation hai apni mehnat se yaha tak aye hai. Kisi k beta2 na suna hai na sunengey).
Please see viral thread on funds at 3L. Firing half the A0s. Not even a single question raised by HR/Board. Extremely unethical. Why did you even hire if you could not retain? Shame.
To those of you who are experiencing anything close to this, my advice is as follows - believe in yourself, you've got this. You will, with time, find your niche and people. Trust the process. Work hard. Most importantly, be careful of the criticism that you take to heart. If the criticism isn't constructive and is a flimsy attack on your self-worth and defines where you belong, trash it right there. It doesn't deserve your time.
PS: Anyone with a constructive suggestion or a way out to help, please get in touch. Those who wish to say things on the lines of "you are incompetent", "it is shameful that you could not land an offer anywhere even after so many interviews", "you are not cut out for this profession", etc., etc., please do not reply. So much of negativity already. The last thing I need is more of it.
Also consider: are you still into the law as a profession and want to make it work, or have you also considered other career options or jobs in other fields? Sometimes working somewhere else for a little while can give some good perspective, and you can return to the law after some wider-world corporate experience also.
I do not want to leave Law, but if so many rejections are coming my way, I don't think I would have much of a choice.
Would apply to things like dating or JK Rowling getting rejected by publishers repeatedly initially...
So if you're passionate about law as a career, keep at it and keep applying even if it's not tier 1, see if you can do some litigation work in the meantime spending time in court, while you're waiting for a corporate job, or volunteer a legal NGO or otherwise fill your time and CV while you wait.
Good luck, keep us posted!
Apni haar me jitna neeche giroge, apni kamyabi me utna uncha uthoge. Sab theek ho jayega. ♥️ The darkest minute of the day is right before the sunrise.
Just keep trying and wait. Something big is going to happen. 💕
The next few years after that is where you will be expected to start with the real "legal" work. Good drafting, good understanding of the basics you've picked up and how to come up with innovative solutions. This is the separating grain from the chaff phase. Some will excel. Others may not. But again, if the basics are all there - good attitude, dedication, hardwork, and ability to put in the hours when necessary and for you to be conscientious - noone will fire you especially at this stage when the grunt work of training you up has already happened.
Believe me when I say this: noone wants to fire anybody unless there's absolutely no work around. The pandemic may have cut down on business for a few firms, but even then people would not have let go of anyone, unless they were already on shaky ground before.
Good luck!
The entitlement to be in a job is astonishing.
Instances where people hired more and then let go, is irresponsible but where there may be real issues of performance- what do you expect an institution to do? Hire/retain for CSR?
Dishonesty or Disinterest are two red flags. If either of these two behaviour patterns manifest continuously over time and there is no improvement despite warnings, I throw the person out on the spot.
(P.S.- Bio thoda change karna pada apka beta2 sunkar, first generation hai apni mehnat se yaha tak aye hai. Kisi k beta2 na suna hai na sunengey).