Legitimate. Let's start with why he is dumb. He wants to speak in an imported language but doesn't want to speak it properly. Languages grow and change. If you want to be ignorant, that's fine but to then use the word 'illness'! That's a dogwhistle. He is suggesting that non binary people (very much a part of Indian history by the way - hijras) as well as people who accept their identity are sick in some way.
sorry what? you make literally no sense- people in india were already against sati is it? they were already against child marriage too? and dowry? why did they keep doing it then?
Were all these things about women in female bodies then? or were hindus confused about non binaries before the evil white man came? youre so ill informed and so smug- you think these are desirable qualities?
Literally every society in the world has different words for man and woman- this isnt about western prudishness- its about human bodies you ▮▮▮. We also have different words for male and female animals of most species. that wasnt an invention of the west. sanskrit pali kannada tamizh telugu hindi all have gender baked deep into the language- that wasnt because of the british.
you should learn to critically think instead of just consuming nonsense written by post modernists who will tell you they dont care about whats true.
but no history or really anything useful. Truth isn't objective ▮▮▮. People reach a consensus on what they all agree to believe in and that consensus moves.
Also 'people in India' is a very large group of people encompassing patriarchal to matrilineal societies and many values and languages. So one group of people can be burning women and marrying off children while another group criticises it. Wild right? Imagine that.
matrilineal societies still underscored that women and men were discrete categories. You dont believe things can be true or that empirical proof exists- its just power all the way down with you. Youre not interested in finding the truth because you dont think its possible for it to exist. Yes ▮▮▮.
that'd be Foucault not me, Einstein. I thought we were discussing all Indians burning women until the British came and saved us. Did matrilineal societies do that? How exactly without a husband to burn for>
so the british you think dont save us because they did enact laws that protected women and children- but post war french philosophers who were a little too into kids- those are gods wwe should unquestioningly worship? Do you even know how to use your ▮▮▮? have you ever used it? its good for more than ▮▮▮ the ▮▮▮ you hear in gender studies classes. ▮▮▮ .
Did you? Because you said "You dont believe things can be true or that empirical proof exists- its just power all the way down with you." A quick google of how to discredit a philosopher does not equal reading unfortunately. It appears that you think your "own ▮▮▮" came up with things that are very old, even the prejudice. ▮▮▮
its not a quick google search. its actually something ive been thinking about since being exposed to foucault in 2012, and ive been reading about responses to foucault and post-post modernism since then. I dont think my own brain came up with anything. Im not sitting here imagining things and wishing them be. Im here evaluating what different people have said and deciding for very clear reasons- why I prefer some things over others. What insults? youve repeatedly called everyone who disagrees with you a bigot! and youre so prickly when someone says youre not using your brain? you can run away from conversation- no one is forcing you. But consider youre just running away from cognitive dissonance.
besides the point- if your philosophy can be undone by a quick google search- consider it might be short sighted at best to build your whole world view around it.
it doesnt make me feel smart. It makes me feel sad to see young people who are so wedded to being perceived as virtuous theyre willing to abandon the value of truth or honesty.
Why do you think I dont read? What is that assumption based on? I literally have an LLM and a PhD. From a school you probably wouldnt get into- I dont feel the need to throw that around to gain credibility- but you seem to think the only arguments worth considering are made by ivory tower academics in philosophy departments who are as far removed from this world as possible. I also dont feel the obligation to pretend stupid arguments arent stupid. do you think that i earned those by not reading - what? second year gender and law introductory texts? You accused me in the other thread of not reading or understanding Judith Butler- I took apart the article you quoted and a couple of others for good measure, and you completely disappeared. In this thread- youve presented articles from different sources, theyve been discredited just by quoting them- and you still refuse to think I read? for what reason? why are you so certain you know more than me? youve not been able to make an argument that I havent been able to poke a few holes in? and you keep covering by calling me a bigot instead of even having a riposte?
I imagine that you think I dont read because I dont agree with everything I read. I use my old lady brain that might be insane because im a lady who gets periods and I challenge ideas I encounter and try and think about what I buy and I dont. Why dont you use your brain and challenge what people say instead of what you want them to say? and instead of feverishly chanting your own dogma? you could also confront evidence which you might disagree with rather than closing your eyes to it?
If you want to be a serious academic or even activist- you will have to learn to deal with your outrage over the idea that people might disagree with you and get to the business of rational debate and persuasion.
Truth isn’t objective. Who are you gonna believe ? Me or your own lying eyes. This is a ridiculous position. It’s one thing to say that things might be untrue because of subjective biases. It’s entirely untrue to say nothing is true or untrue because of the existence of subjectivities. The truth exists because there is a material world out there. Everything isn’t a hallucination. If I see a tree and you see a tree and we can both agree that the thing is a tree and it’s valuable to have a distinction between tree and shrub and leaf , and trees exist even if we both turn away and stop looking at them- then that is an objective truth. Objectivity isn’t impossible - you just don’t understand the scientific method. You don’t understand double blind peer reviews or randomised controlled trials or surveys or experiments or archaeology or history. All you are about is pure post modernist social constructivism.
There was a time when the majority of the work thought that lobotomies were a great thing to do to mentally I’ll people. We stopped doing lobotomies because they did trials and measured outcomes and the truth - the objective material horrible truth came out.
There was a time in history when everyone and their mother believed the sun revolves around the earth. But because of objective material reality- because of experiments done over and over again- we now know that that is not true. People thought the earth was flat until many dudes went all the way around and showed that objectively - materially - it is true that the world is not flat.
It is not simply consensus and power that make a thing true. It’s objective material reality- that yea might take some time to have everyone see the evidence or even develop evidence in scientifically rigorous ways - but it is still a real thing.
You didn’t take the covid vaccine because of consensus and power - you took it because of published research that showed efficacy of those drugs. You don’t think climate change isn’t real because there’s no consensus- it is real because of objective material reality.
You don’t believe in the Christian god or Yahweh or any number of other gods because of consensus. You wait for objective material proof.
Your only exception to all of this - I’m willing to bet - is gender. Because it’s the last acceptable religious movement that refuses to consider material reality so of course you think it’s disinformation. When religious people encounter information that causes cognitive dissonance they blame the devil too. You have shibboleths ( trans women are women. Non binary is valid)- and your rituals ( pronoun games) too.
In this thread you’ve gone from a relatively moderate position of “ that’s not what the evidence says” to “ well if the evidence says that it’s colonialism “ to “ the truth is unknowable anyway - it’s all power and social construction”. All because you have cognitive dissonance.
Hijras are not "non binary". Until gender ideology madness came to india we all knew what exactly Hijras were. They were men who were willingly or otherwise (mostly otherwise) castrated. Even the All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha agreed with this in 1994 and again in 2005- by 2015 of course the ideology gave them an easy way to legitimise their unsavoury behaviour.
2005 article. Here are choice quotes "(AIHKS) reveals that only 1 per cent of society's invisibles are born eunuchs, while the rest have joined the community under duress or for money."
"The study indicates that Delhi alone has 30,000 hijras. Putting a number to the growing population, it says about 1,000 youths are converted into eunuchs in Delhi every year. As per estimates, only one in a lakh is born a eunuch. Arun Kumar from Sahara Group, an NGO that works with eunuchs, says what the statistics don't reveal is how kids and youths are kidnapped for sex work. "Eunuch gurus and their paid agents get these kidnapped youngsters addicted to opium and then initiate them into homosexuality. Eventually, they are castrated in a gory and risky operation." Indira, general secretary of the Hijra Kalyan Sabha and victim of a kidnapping, hit out at eunuch gurus. "These gurus have become millionaires by making eunuchs service homosexuals," says Indira, formerly known as Rajendra, who was castrated."
"Kirpal,who was sold to eunuchs by his employer at Old Delhi railway station, was luckier. Though he did have to work as a sex worker, the sabha saved him from castration. The Supreme Court intervened to order that Kirpal be provided full protection. He is now working for the Hijra Kalyan Sabha. But the sabha president admits this is the only rescue that his organisation has managed. "Others will probably have to wait for the eunuch-police nexus to end," says a dispirited Bhola"
: "It took just one quick stroke of a country-made ustra (razor) to change a life forever. Ram Kumar Negi was too drugged to struggle, but not enough to numb his pain. Forced down by Ranjeeta, a hijra (eunuch), and his hefty accomplices, and stripped naked, he watched terrorised as they severed his genitals with a sharp knife, leaving a gaping wound.
Negi's shrieks died in the stillness of the dingy basement 'surgery' in a village in Etah district of western Uttar Pradesh. In the usual course of events they would have yielded to a deeper silence. The outwardly raucous world of the hijras is cloaked in its own codes and secrets. For an unwilling initiate like Negi, the brutal reality of castration is usually enervating enough to snuff out any thought of justice or retribution. Not any longer."
Khairati Lal Bhola, a spokesman of the All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha, formed in 1984 to protect their rights, says: "While castrations had always been clandestinely forced on unwilling males, nobody else had the guts to retaliate like these people."
But the complainants have realised it is an uphill struggle. The police are unsympathetic. Braving the cynicism and ridicule of reluctant law-enforcers can often feel like a second assault
Worse, emasculation is not listed as a cognisable offence under the Indian Penal Code (IPC). "Though we don't possess sufficient data on this, it would normally fall under Section 326 or 365 of the IPC, which is "abduction and grievous injury with a sharp weapon", says L.C. Amarnathan, director, National Crime Records Bureau.
The bureau has no statistics as to how many cases of forcible emasculation may have occurred in the country. But R. Tiwari, Delhi's additional commissioner of police, crime, asserts: "I don't think there is any trend which shows a rise in forced castrations. There may be a few isolated cases, but nothing beyond that."
"The Hijra Kalyan Sabha alleges that the hijra community operates through a countrywide network of hijra mandis, where a newly castrated eunuch is auctioned to the highest bidder.
"The auction is conducted with claps - a single clap denotes Rs 1,000. Understandably, the premium is highest on fair, clean-limbed boys who are likely to be high earners," explains Bhola.
However, the entire operation remains a secret as the hijra community is built on a pyramid structure at the apex of which are the elusive gurus, who are not only much older than the others in their ring but also exercise control over a particular ilaqa or territory for the purpose of extracting badhai (tips on joyous occasions)."
"It is believed that all hijras are castrated. We call it nirvan."
"Of course, it’s not as if hijras never kidnap kids. But then the community doesn’t forgive them. Like mainstream society, the hijra community too has its share of criminals."
This Lakshmi Narayan Tripathi is actually quoted in the NALSA judgment- what a joke!
We used to know what this was. Even Hijras used to admit this. We used to be able to think clearly on these issues. But ideology, groupthink, Judith butlers esoteric philosophy and I guess social media virtue signalling had blinded us now.
Excellent post. Thank you for the research and the links. We need to stop the ▮▮▮ glamourising of Hijras as non binary. As the article you shared correctly states, a brutal criminal operation forcibly kidnaps and castrates young boys, who then get initiated into such criminal behaviour themselves. When babies are born or when weddings happen, these people forcibly extort lakhs of rupees. They need to be arrested and they’re criminal masterminds who castrate young boys need to be jailed for life.
It's so wonderful that you think you know more than Judith Butler based on some randomly collected news articles that validate your biases. If you want to read academically rigorous sources, there are a few below. But please feel free to come back with stories from Sports Illustrated or wherever else you cherry pick your anecdotes from.
### in Hindu society, people of non-binary gender expression have played important roles for over 2000 years.
Called the third gender, evidence for their existence in Hindu society can be found in Hindu holy texts like the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, where Hindu hero Arjuna becomes the third gender. Third gender people have often been revered throughout South Asian history https://rpl.hds.harvard.edu/religion-context/case-studies/gender/third-gender-and-hijras
As colonial depictions were superseded in the twentieth century, the hijra was reclaimed as a prominent nonwestern ‘third gender’ or transgender group resisting the western schema of sexual dimorphism.12 Recent ethnographies by Lawrence Cohen and Gayatri Reddy critique earlier pathologisingoressentialisingconstructionsofthehijra,describingthehijraasa complexidentity of marginalised male-born (or rarely intersex) transvestites who combine kinship-based social organisation with Islamic and Hindu religious practices.13 Hijras may undergo castration and penectomy, which confers higher status within intra-community hierarchies An Epistemology of Collusion: Hijras, Kothis and the Historical (Dis)continuity of Gender/Sexual Identities in Eastern India Aniruddha Dutta
You cannot be serious. No really. Is this your best argument? Could you be more smug or condescending?
Buddy I haven't just read judith butler, I have taught her at some of the countries best law schools. I know where there are holes in her arguments because I do not exempt her work from critical analysis- do you? Why do you think primary sources quoting hijras themselves are so much worse than polished articles from harvards religion and theology department? Considering you dont actually bother to quote butler- im assuming you havent read or understood her work and simply worship her because she gives bad arguments credibility.
This isnt the times of india saying anything either- the quotes are from Hijras in the All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha- please tell me why I should not believe Hijras over and above an american philosopher who has never done serious sociological or historical work. Judith Butler primarily belongs to literary analysis and philosophy departments. Do you even know what youre talking about? why would I take her word for anything to do with a distinctly south asian phenomenon shes never had the time to study in any sort of depth? Why oh why is she someone you unquestioningly worship so much youre blind to primary sources?
Why is judith butler your ultimate diety? she really is like a pope to you people and someone whose wisdom is not to be questioned. Could it be possible that an academic who herself identifies as nonbinary has some vested interest in claiming that non binary has historical relevance? Could that possibly bias her analysis or the way she cherry picks data points to suit her story or the way she constructs her arguments?
Your evidence for the existence of hijras being non binary is the mahabharata? are you really really being for real right now? why have you turned your brain off? When people say that the proof of the ram setu is in the ramayana do you believe them? do you really think monkeys can fly? or that a woman really had a hundred children? how are you different from right wing quacks who think ancient indians knew about aeroplanes at because of jatayu or something? youre all just religious idiots- you just pick and choose different parts of religion to believe.
You picked out the first sentence from the abstract of the american urological association article. Here is the second one "They form familial relationships in the guru-chela system, or mentor-mentee." I dont know about you- but that sounds pretty cultish to me doesnt it to you? and why should I believe an MD- an oncologist- can do serious historical work anyway? do you routinely read the american urological association journal for your south asian history? I would think one read it for medical research.
Hijras are clearly a cult. Here are quotes from the harvard paper you cited: "Regardless, most hijras’ defining characteristic is leaving home to become a part of the hijra community, a community which removes itself from wider society and teaches its lessons in secret. A young person is initiated by following a guru, or teacher, who will teach the chela, or disciple, in the hijra ways of life. This includes leaving their home to live in community with other hijras, to learn the ritual roles that they perform in Hindu households. Hijra are expected to perform dances, songs, and blessings at both births and weddings of Hindus. "
It seems to me that society is not excluding them- theyre excluding themselves. They are choosing to live a certain way- to live in a particular religious cult- and to harass people for money or to think its their right to get money by intruding on weddings and births of people in polite society who actually do jobs that produce actual value.
" Still, the cultural authority of the hijra is so powerful, that the police will often do nothing to remove them. Hijras are often treated with both respect and fear."
It seems to me this is the opposite of an oppressed community no? if they can hold regular citizens and the police hostage? a sacred caste that mustn't be questioned? made entirely of males? why do you think we should all continue this practice of worshipping them? do you believe in their curses and their blessings? do you believe other sorts of religious superstitions?
"Based in Christian beliefs about gender at the time, the British named all hijras criminals in 1871, and instructed colonial authorities to arrest them on sight. However, because of their important religious functions for Hindus, hijras persisted without significant interruption. Still, nearly 200 years of stigmatization by the British eventually took a toll. While hijras have maintained their traditional rights and responsibilities at births and marriages..."
Sorry- christian religious beliefs in 1871? thats a little ahistorical isnt it? 1871 wasnt the middle ages, there were no crusades- the church had significantly receded from government- this is well after the founding of the church of england and the reformations - this is during or slightly after the age of enlightenment. But anyway- christian religious beliefs bad but hindu religious beliefs good? why? because hindus make these people into a sacred caste and people not exposed to that culturally automatically think a community isolating itself from society, demanding that everyone else pay them money as a right, and kidnapping little boys and castrating them are not likely to go along as easy? Do you think sati was wonderful as well? because english reformers sure did want to stop that widow burning? what about age of consent legislation that the british introduced even after hindu resistance? was that problematic? What about the caste system? did you know many indians resented british attempts to educate dalits because they saw this as infringing on hindu religion? do you think thats wonderful because theres certainly mention of that in hindu scripture. are you a cultural relativist? Do you think its okay for certain cultures to genitally mutilate little girls?
Why does someone who doesnt know my baby have rights when my baby is born? Why on earth are we supposed to go along with it in 2024?
The same Laxmi narayan tripathi who is quoted in your harvard article is quoted in that words without borders blog saying - of course hijras kidnap children- but why doesnt the mainstream society forgive them. Its the same damn dude. But you want to discredit as bigoted and colonial that source while elevating to truth one that more suits your narrative. Seems to me youre the one cherry picking data
Of course recent studies try to rewrite histories to suit gender ideology. thats what im saying is happening. The same dudes who in 1995 and 2005 claimed that they were abducted and auctioned and forcibly castrated and now coming up with gendered souls as a way to whitewash their cult. Why should I buy any of this newspeak when your side cannot keep its story straight? Other civil rights movements dont operate on this deceit. Women and Black people and dalit people do not do this- they could always clearly tell you why they were oppressed- how they were oppressed- and how what liberation and freedom meant for them. None of those communities argued that when they committed serious crimes such as kidnapping, assault, rape, castration- we should not hold them accountable because they have no moral agency. Indeed many of those movements worked to be seen as equally morally capable as straight white men. None of those communities were venerated the way this cult is or have gotten as much of a pass to harass people in mainstream society as much as Hijras have. And yet Hijras you would have us believe are the "most marginalised" of all. Its ridiculous that you think this passes as rigorous or convincing argument or evidence.
Among the articles quote are the times of India - India’s paper of record, the Hindu, DNA, Indian express, India today, and scroll.in
You want to disbelieve all of them. All of them got it wrong because what they’re saying is not what an American philosopher who hasn’t done a day of on the ground reporting would say if she even knew about hijras.
And most of these links are either quoting hijras themselves, or are quoting police officers and judges. Is the all India Hijra Kalyan Sabha a right wing conservative facist organisation in your world view ? Why would you tell people to educate themselves and listen to the community when you clearly disagree with a plain reading of what the community is saying ?
You don’t want people to educate themselves - you want people to have unquestioning belief in the moral virtue of your cause.
You understand the difference between journalism and philosophy right? Maybe start there.
The question is what stories you are cherry picking and what you understand from them. Forgive me if I find it difficult to treat your anecdotes as some sort of iron clad evidence of how you know more than one of the most cited and celebrated philosophers in the world.
You understand that philosophy is not empirically grounded right? The ALL INDIA HIJRA KALYAN SABHA conducted a SURVEY of HIJRAS in the country and found that like 90% of them were castrated males. That is not anecdote. That is literally science. You just dont like what it says.
The philosophy isn't about the statistics of who is castrated. It is about the people who are not. The 10% in your empirically grounded literally science survey. I have no problem with what it says. It looks like maybe you don't understand it.
exactly. Thank you. The philosophy is not about hijras. Hijras are not non binary. Not by a long shot. Thats all my point is. its not my empirically grounded science survey- its by the all india hijra kalyan sabha.
If esoteric western philosophy is to be accepted in law and policy making in india- it must be on its own merits- not because theyve managed to coopt an already victimised group.
If the survey you are quoting says 90% of hijras are castrated men, even assuming that none of this was voluntary, what about the 10%. How did you go from 90% to all?
you keep asking this like its a gotcha. You didnt even read the link did you? I missed it too typing it out several times- its 99% of the surveyed men who were castrated under duress or involuntarily. the other 1% were born with deformed genitals. I dont think men with deformed genitals are less manly. Do you?
sorry- why is this marked contested? are we saying that directly quoting hijras from news reports that are linked is not enough? shouldnt we be listening to the lived experiences of trans people?/s. Is the all india hijra kalyan sabha a radical right wing conservative organisation? or you simply not like what theyre saying because it goes against your ideology?
if its misgendering to call a they/them non binary special soul by sex based pronouns isnt it misgendering to call this dude they? or do you only get to want validation if youre trans?
why should what is normally used be they them rather than sex based? if non binary/ trans people are such a minority why should everyone else be misgendered to cater to them?
Do you really think anyone looked at his photo and couldnt tell if he was a man or a woman? that men and women are indistinguishable on sight? this isnt a good faith argument.
Why would you make such an assumption? I don't know if AIs can look at photos and decide people's Gender. As a short haired woman I would hate to be mistaken for a man. Using pronouns in the profile makes it explicit and avoids any ambiguity.
The ideal response to this should be the one that Dr Lesly Armstrong, in that wonderful Sherlock Holmes story 'The Adventure of the Missing Three-Quarter', gives (with due apologies to Conan Doyle for misquotation, don't have it to hand): 'I have no time for such trifles'.
Apologies for the angry introduction, but surely this is obvious? A provocative dog whistle, which does have the possibility of leading to violence against a minority? I think you would find that most human rights instruments with a clause on free speech would say that speech that might lead to violence can legitimately not be allowed.
He's just trying to mimic the founder-creates-controversy model and failing hard at it, much like his scooter business and his ▮▮▮ app. Founders should spend more time fixing their products and less time fighting teenagers on twitter
If you are hypersensitive about the pronouns used to describe you, then put them up on your profile. Bhavesh Aggarwal and some Trans persons have the same problem.
Well, well well! Our boy has now announced that he is cutting ties with Microsoft (parent company of LinkedIn) for censoring his “pronoun illness” post and is starting his own tech platform to compete with Microsoft. Also praises Ayodhya temple.
Will this now trigger a culture war in corporate India, with the right-wing/heteronormative/ 100 day work week camp of tech bros seeking Modi’s support?
and their wokeness. As an Indian institution, Ola is for genuine actions on diversity. We run one of the largest women only automotive plants. Not 1 out of 10 lines, or a small section, but the whole plant! Almost 5000 women now and will grow to tens of thousands in the coming years. And regarding gender inclusivity, we don’t need lectures from western companies on how to be inclusive. Our culture didn’t need pronouns to be inclusive for thousands of years. .... On the other hand, the pronouns issue I wrote about is a woke political ideology of entitlement which doesn’t belong in India. I wouldn’t have waded into this debate but clearly Linkedin has presumed Indians need to have pronouns in our life, and that we can’t criticise it. They will bully us into agreeing with them or cancel us out. And if they can do this to me, I’m sure the average user stands no chance. As a founder and CEO, this western DEI system has a major impact on my business as it grows an entitlement mindset in our professional lives and I will fight it.
What is he smoking? Hindi (which he speaks) is a heavily gendered language which has genders and pronouns for everything including inanimate objects. Nothing western about it.
exactly- clearly the language he speaks brooks very little of this gender neutral non binary non sense. But of course he should learn to shed his culture, and rational thinking, and doubt and skepticism, all of that for western ideas like men can be women if they say so.
https://twitter.com/bhash/status/1788436107568509065
Were all these things about women in female bodies then? or were hindus confused about non binaries before the evil white man came? youre so ill informed and so smug- you think these are desirable qualities?
Literally every society in the world has different words for man and woman- this isnt about western prudishness- its about human bodies you ▮▮▮. We also have different words for male and female animals of most species. that wasnt an invention of the west. sanskrit pali kannada tamizh telugu hindi all have gender baked deep into the language- that wasnt because of the british.
you should learn to critically think instead of just consuming nonsense written by post modernists who will tell you they dont care about whats true.
Also 'people in India' is a very large group of people encompassing patriarchal to matrilineal societies and many values and languages. So one group of people can be burning women and marrying off children while another group criticises it. Wild right? Imagine that.
Why do you think I dont read? What is that assumption based on? I literally have an LLM and a PhD. From a school you probably wouldnt get into- I dont feel the need to throw that around to gain credibility- but you seem to think the only arguments worth considering are made by ivory tower academics in philosophy departments who are as far removed from this world as possible. I also dont feel the obligation to pretend stupid arguments arent stupid. do you think that i earned those by not reading - what? second year gender and law introductory texts? You accused me in the other thread of not reading or understanding Judith Butler- I took apart the article you quoted and a couple of others for good measure, and you completely disappeared. In this thread- youve presented articles from different sources, theyve been discredited just by quoting them- and you still refuse to think I read? for what reason? why are you so certain you know more than me? youve not been able to make an argument that I havent been able to poke a few holes in? and you keep covering by calling me a bigot instead of even having a riposte?
I imagine that you think I dont read because I dont agree with everything I read. I use my old lady brain that might be insane because im a lady who gets periods and I challenge ideas I encounter and try and think about what I buy and I dont. Why dont you use your brain and challenge what people say instead of what you want them to say? and instead of feverishly chanting your own dogma? you could also confront evidence which you might disagree with rather than closing your eyes to it?
If you want to be a serious academic or even activist- you will have to learn to deal with your outrage over the idea that people might disagree with you and get to the business of rational debate and persuasion.
There was a time when the majority of the work thought that lobotomies were a great thing to do to mentally I’ll people. We stopped doing lobotomies because they did trials and measured outcomes and the truth - the objective material horrible truth came out.
There was a time in history when everyone and their mother believed the sun revolves around the earth. But because of objective material reality- because of experiments done over and over again- we now know that that is not true. People thought the earth was flat until many dudes went all the way around and showed that objectively - materially - it is true that the world is not flat.
It is not simply consensus and power that make a thing true. It’s objective material reality- that yea might take some time to have everyone see the evidence or even develop evidence in scientifically rigorous ways - but it is still a real thing.
You didn’t take the covid vaccine because of consensus and power - you took it because of published research that showed efficacy of those drugs. You don’t think climate change isn’t real because there’s no consensus- it is real because of objective material reality.
You don’t believe in the Christian god or Yahweh or any number of other gods because of consensus. You wait for objective material proof.
Your only exception to all of this - I’m willing to bet - is gender. Because it’s the last acceptable religious movement that refuses to consider material reality so of course you think it’s disinformation. When religious people encounter information that causes cognitive dissonance they blame the devil too. You have shibboleths ( trans women are women. Non binary is valid)- and your rituals ( pronoun games) too.
In this thread you’ve gone from a relatively moderate position of “ that’s not what the evidence says” to “ well if the evidence says that it’s colonialism “ to “ the truth is unknowable anyway - it’s all power and social construction”. All because you have cognitive dissonance.
Here news reports:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/eunuchs-not-always-born-but-made/articleshow/1219979.cms
2005 article. Here are choice quotes "(AIHKS) reveals that only 1 per cent of society's invisibles are born eunuchs, while the rest have joined the community under duress or for money."
"The study indicates that Delhi alone has 30,000 hijras. Putting a number to the growing population, it says about 1,000 youths are converted into eunuchs in Delhi every year. As per estimates, only one in a lakh is born a eunuch. Arun Kumar from Sahara Group, an NGO that works with eunuchs, says what the statistics don't reveal is how kids and youths are kidnapped for sex work. "Eunuch gurus and their paid agents get these kidnapped youngsters addicted to opium and then initiate them into homosexuality. Eventually, they are castrated in a gory and risky operation." Indira, general secretary of the Hijra Kalyan Sabha and victim of a kidnapping, hit out at eunuch gurus. "These gurus have become millionaires by making eunuchs service homosexuals," says Indira, formerly known as Rajendra, who was castrated."
"Kirpal,who was sold to eunuchs by his employer at Old Delhi railway station, was luckier. Though he did have to work as a sex worker, the sabha saved him from castration. The Supreme Court intervened to order that Kirpal be provided full protection. He is now working for the Hijra Kalyan Sabha. But the sabha president admits this is the only rescue that his organisation has managed. "Others will probably have to wait for the eunuch-police nexus to end," says a dispirited Bhola"
From the 1995 article https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/special-report/story/19940515-determined-group-of-forcibly-castrated-men-file-criminal-charges-against-their-abductors-809139-1994-05-14
: "It took just one quick stroke of a country-made ustra (razor) to change a life forever. Ram Kumar Negi was too drugged to struggle, but not enough to numb his pain. Forced down by Ranjeeta, a hijra (eunuch), and his hefty accomplices, and stripped naked, he watched terrorised as they severed his genitals with a sharp knife, leaving a gaping wound.
Negi's shrieks died in the stillness of the dingy basement 'surgery' in a village in Etah district of western Uttar Pradesh. In the usual course of events they would have yielded to a deeper silence. The outwardly raucous world of the hijras is cloaked in its own codes and secrets. For an unwilling initiate like Negi, the brutal reality of castration is usually enervating enough to snuff out any thought of justice or retribution. Not any longer."
Khairati Lal Bhola, a spokesman of the All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha, formed in 1984 to protect their rights, says: "While castrations had always been clandestinely forced on unwilling males, nobody else had the guts to retaliate like these people."
But the complainants have realised it is an uphill struggle. The police are unsympathetic. Braving the cynicism and ridicule of reluctant law-enforcers can often feel like a second assault
Worse, emasculation is not listed as a cognisable offence under the Indian Penal Code (IPC). "Though we don't possess sufficient data on this, it would normally fall under Section 326 or 365 of the IPC, which is "abduction and grievous injury with a sharp weapon", says L.C. Amarnathan, director, National Crime Records Bureau.
The bureau has no statistics as to how many cases of forcible emasculation may have occurred in the country. But R. Tiwari, Delhi's additional commissioner of police, crime, asserts: "I don't think there is any trend which shows a rise in forced castrations. There may be a few isolated cases, but nothing beyond that."
"The Hijra Kalyan Sabha alleges that the hijra community operates through a countrywide network of hijra mandis, where a newly castrated eunuch is auctioned to the highest bidder.
"The auction is conducted with claps - a single clap denotes Rs 1,000. Understandably, the premium is highest on fair, clean-limbed boys who are likely to be high earners," explains Bhola.
However, the entire operation remains a secret as the hijra community is built on a pyramid structure at the apex of which are the elusive gurus, who are not only much older than the others in their ring but also exercise control over a particular ilaqa or territory for the purpose of extracting badhai (tips on joyous occasions)."
Here is a hijra person in her own words:
https://wordswithoutborders.org/read/article/2013-06/lakshmis-story/
"It is believed that all hijras are castrated. We call it nirvan."
"Of course, it’s not as if hijras never kidnap kids. But then the community doesn’t forgive them. Like mainstream society, the hijra community too has its share of criminals."
This Lakshmi Narayan Tripathi is actually quoted in the NALSA judgment- what a joke!
Here is a more recent 2021 report of a hijra killing a baby because parents didnt give him money: https://www.ibtimes.com/infant-dies-after-being-held-hostage-parents-could-not-pay-customary-blessing-3341267
another 2021 report: https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-transgender-accomplice-kill-3-month-old-girl-7397017/
Another 2021 report about a 13 year old being forced to take cross sex hormones and being forced to beg and to get sex reassignment surgery: https://scroll.in/latest/984166/delhi-13-year-old-forced-to-undergo-sex-change-surgery-raped-multiple-times-two-held-say-reports?fbclid=IwAR1KKK9Dh2awCaRjuBPYXzpeMDkcxxfSs2_wF-phuZAqxF19epzWs2adiqo
Heres a link that shows in 2013 this was still called what it was- forced sex change surgeries on minors who are kidnapped. done by quacks who want to make a quick buck. https://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/report-end-of-the-line-for-sex-change-doctor-1246202
And heres a 2020 article showing how police are refusing to prosecute "transwomen " or hijras who brainwashed, lured away, and assaulted and raped a minor boy who thought he was trans too. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/police-refuse-to-file-complaint-of-assault-of-minor-by-transgender-group/article33189066.ece
We used to know what this was. Even Hijras used to admit this. We used to be able to think clearly on these issues. But ideology, groupthink, Judith butlers esoteric philosophy and I guess social media virtue signalling had blinded us now.
The hijra community of South Asia is a group of individuals who identify as transgender, intersex, or gender-nonconforming in some way and live in a distinct community often separate from cisgender society. https://www.auajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1097/01.JU.0001008828.35887.de.11
### in Hindu society, people of non-binary gender expression have played important roles for over 2000 years.
Called the third gender, evidence for their existence in Hindu society can be found in Hindu holy texts like the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, where Hindu hero Arjuna becomes the third gender. Third gender people have often been revered throughout South Asian history https://rpl.hds.harvard.edu/religion-context/case-studies/gender/third-gender-and-hijras
As colonial depictions were superseded in the twentieth century, the hijra was reclaimed as a prominent nonwestern ‘third gender’ or transgender group resisting the western schema of sexual dimorphism.12 Recent ethnographies by Lawrence Cohen and Gayatri Reddy critique earlier pathologisingoressentialisingconstructionsofthehijra,describingthehijraasa complexidentity of marginalised male-born (or rarely intersex) transvestites who combine kinship-based social organisation with Islamic and Hindu religious practices.13 Hijras may undergo castration and penectomy, which confers higher status within intra-community hierarchies
An Epistemology of Collusion: Hijras, Kothis and the Historical (Dis)continuity of Gender/Sexual Identities in Eastern India Aniruddha Dutta
Buddy I haven't just read judith butler, I have taught her at some of the countries best law schools. I know where there are holes in her arguments because I do not exempt her work from critical analysis- do you? Why do you think primary sources quoting hijras themselves are so much worse than polished articles from harvards religion and theology department? Considering you dont actually bother to quote butler- im assuming you havent read or understood her work and simply worship her because she gives bad arguments credibility.
This isnt the times of india saying anything either- the quotes are from Hijras in the All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha- please tell me why I should not believe Hijras over and above an american philosopher who has never done serious sociological or historical work. Judith Butler primarily belongs to literary analysis and philosophy departments. Do you even know what youre talking about? why would I take her word for anything to do with a distinctly south asian phenomenon shes never had the time to study in any sort of depth? Why oh why is she someone you unquestioningly worship so much youre blind to primary sources?
Why is judith butler your ultimate diety? she really is like a pope to you people and someone whose wisdom is not to be questioned. Could it be possible that an academic who herself identifies as nonbinary has some vested interest in claiming that non binary has historical relevance? Could that possibly bias her analysis or the way she cherry picks data points to suit her story or the way she constructs her arguments?
Your evidence for the existence of hijras being non binary is the mahabharata? are you really really being for real right now? why have you turned your brain off? When people say that the proof of the ram setu is in the ramayana do you believe them? do you really think monkeys can fly? or that a woman really had a hundred children? how are you different from right wing quacks who think ancient indians knew about aeroplanes at because of jatayu or something? youre all just religious idiots- you just pick and choose different parts of religion to believe.
You picked out the first sentence from the abstract of the american urological association article. Here is the second one "They form familial relationships in the guru-chela system, or mentor-mentee." I dont know about you- but that sounds pretty cultish to me doesnt it to you? and why should I believe an MD- an oncologist- can do serious historical work anyway? do you routinely read the american urological association journal for your south asian history? I would think one read it for medical research.
Hijras are clearly a cult. Here are quotes from the harvard paper you cited: "Regardless, most hijras’ defining characteristic is leaving home to become a part of the hijra community, a community which removes itself from wider society and teaches its lessons in secret. A young person is initiated by following a guru, or teacher, who will teach the chela, or disciple, in the hijra ways of life. This includes leaving their home to live in community with other hijras, to learn the ritual roles that they perform in Hindu households. Hijra are expected to perform dances, songs, and blessings at both births and weddings of Hindus. "
It seems to me that society is not excluding them- theyre excluding themselves. They are choosing to live a certain way- to live in a particular religious cult- and to harass people for money or to think its their right to get money by intruding on weddings and births of people in polite society who actually do jobs that produce actual value.
" Still, the cultural authority of the hijra is so powerful, that the police will often do nothing to remove them. Hijras are often treated with both respect and fear."
It seems to me this is the opposite of an oppressed community no? if they can hold regular citizens and the police hostage? a sacred caste that mustn't be questioned? made entirely of males? why do you think we should all continue this practice of worshipping them? do you believe in their curses and their blessings? do you believe other sorts of religious superstitions?
"Based in Christian beliefs about gender at the time, the British named all hijras criminals in 1871, and instructed colonial authorities to arrest them on sight. However, because of their important religious functions for Hindus, hijras persisted without significant interruption. Still, nearly 200 years of stigmatization by the British eventually took a toll. While hijras have maintained their traditional rights and responsibilities at births and marriages..."
Sorry- christian religious beliefs in 1871? thats a little ahistorical isnt it? 1871 wasnt the middle ages, there were no crusades- the church had significantly receded from government- this is well after the founding of the church of england and the reformations - this is during or slightly after the age of enlightenment. But anyway- christian religious beliefs bad but hindu religious beliefs good? why? because hindus make these people into a sacred caste and people not exposed to that culturally automatically think a community isolating itself from society, demanding that everyone else pay them money as a right, and kidnapping little boys and castrating them are not likely to go along as easy? Do you think sati was wonderful as well? because english reformers sure did want to stop that widow burning? what about age of consent legislation that the british introduced even after hindu resistance? was that problematic? What about the caste system? did you know many indians resented british attempts to educate dalits because they saw this as infringing on hindu religion? do you think thats wonderful because theres certainly mention of that in hindu scripture. are you a cultural relativist? Do you think its okay for certain cultures to genitally mutilate little girls?
Why does someone who doesnt know my baby have rights when my baby is born? Why on earth are we supposed to go along with it in 2024?
The same Laxmi narayan tripathi who is quoted in your harvard article is quoted in that words without borders blog saying - of course hijras kidnap children- but why doesnt the mainstream society forgive them. Its the same damn dude. But you want to discredit as bigoted and colonial that source while elevating to truth one that more suits your narrative. Seems to me youre the one cherry picking data
Of course recent studies try to rewrite histories to suit gender ideology. thats what im saying is happening. The same dudes who in 1995 and 2005 claimed that they were abducted and auctioned and forcibly castrated and now coming up with gendered souls as a way to whitewash their cult. Why should I buy any of this newspeak when your side cannot keep its story straight? Other civil rights movements dont operate on this deceit. Women and Black people and dalit people do not do this- they could always clearly tell you why they were oppressed- how they were oppressed- and how what liberation and freedom meant for them. None of those communities argued that when they committed serious crimes such as kidnapping, assault, rape, castration- we should not hold them accountable because they have no moral agency. Indeed many of those movements worked to be seen as equally morally capable as straight white men. None of those communities were venerated the way this cult is or have gotten as much of a pass to harass people in mainstream society as much as Hijras have. And yet Hijras you would have us believe are the "most marginalised" of all. Its ridiculous that you think this passes as rigorous or convincing argument or evidence.
You want to disbelieve all of them. All of them got it wrong because what they’re saying is not what an American philosopher who hasn’t done a day of on the ground reporting would say if she even knew about hijras.
And most of these links are either quoting hijras themselves, or are quoting police officers and judges. Is the all India Hijra Kalyan Sabha a right wing conservative facist organisation in your world view ? Why would you tell people to educate themselves and listen to the community when you clearly disagree with a plain reading of what the community is saying ?
You don’t want people to educate themselves - you want people to have unquestioning belief in the moral virtue of your cause.
And you’re not the one cherry picking data ?
The question is what stories you are cherry picking and what you understand from them. Forgive me if I find it difficult to treat your anecdotes as some sort of iron clad evidence of how you know more than one of the most cited and celebrated philosophers in the world.
If esoteric western philosophy is to be accepted in law and policy making in india- it must be on its own merits- not because theyve managed to coopt an already victimised group.
Or is mathematics also western now?
Do you really think anyone looked at his photo and couldnt tell if he was a man or a woman? that men and women are indistinguishable on sight? this isnt a good faith argument.
Apologies for the angry introduction, but surely this is obvious? A provocative dog whistle, which does have the possibility of leading to violence against a minority? I think you would find that most human rights instruments with a clause on free speech would say that speech that might lead to violence can legitimately not be allowed.
Will this now trigger a culture war in corporate India, with the right-wing/heteronormative/ 100 day work week camp of tech bros seeking Modi’s support?
https://m.economictimes.com/tech/technology/olas-bhavish-aggarwal-snaps-ties-with-microsoft-azure-in-stand-against-western-tech/amp_articleshow/110033377.cms
On @Linkedin
, @Microsoft
and their wokeness. As an Indian institution, Ola is for genuine actions on diversity. We run one of the largest women only automotive plants. Not 1 out of 10 lines, or a small section, but the whole plant! Almost 5000 women now and will grow to tens of thousands in the coming years. And regarding gender inclusivity, we don’t need lectures from western companies on how to be inclusive. Our culture didn’t need pronouns to be inclusive for thousands of years. .... On the other hand, the pronouns issue I wrote about is a woke political ideology of entitlement which doesn’t belong in India. I wouldn’t have waded into this debate but clearly Linkedin has presumed Indians need to have pronouns in our life, and that we can’t criticise it. They will bully us into agreeing with them or cancel us out. And if they can do this to me, I’m sure the average user stands no chance. As a founder and CEO, this western DEI system has a major impact on my business as it grows an entitlement mindset in our professional lives and I will fight it.
https://twitter.com/bhash/status/1789217759378993611