Comes soon after the Canadian Supreme Court judgement used “person with a vagina” instead of “woman”. I think we will soon see a new judicial grammar, where gender-neutral terms replace gendered ones. For example:

- Birthing parent, instead of mother

- Partner, instead of husband or wife

- Sibling, instead of brother or sister

https://www.barandbench.com/news/litigation/why-supreme-court-used-pregnant-person-instead-of-pregnant-woman

Ugh. This is terrible. I know DYC thinks he’s “on the right side of history”. But all he’s doing is erasing women as a sex class that face unique problems.

This pregnant person language makes pregnancy seem like an Illness that could afflict anyone at random. It makes it seem like this is not about women at all. The fact that we don’t have as much research into pain during pregnancy or the fact that women have been dying on the birthing bed for

Millennia - because they’re women with female bodies who have never received adequate attention from the medical industry including doctors and scientists - all that gets erased. You’re just a pregnant person - as if it could have just as easily been possible for your partner with a penis to be pregnant.

You’re not a mother anymore - you’re a birthing parent - what are you after you’ve given birth ? You could be anyone really - just someone peripherally linked to the baby- just a parent like an uncle or aunt who might take their niece in. Not the woman who grew the baby in her womb for nine months and pushed the baby out risking her own life to do it. All of that is dirty womanly body things we don’t want to acknowledge. And acknowledging the reality of womens bodies also makes it very tough to argue that poor women should rent their wombs out to rich people. The womb is just a hotel room - a reproductive technology. It’s not a part of her body. And she’s not the mother - she’s just a surrogate- like an agent - she barely has anything to do with creating that new person

It’s all profoundly anti women this speech. When you’re calling men the “ejaculating parent” then you can say it isn’t. But no one would think of reducing men to their parts no ?

And for what ? For “non binary” NLOGs and “trans men” who have so rejected their own female bodies as to ▮▮▮ and compel the speech of others - but oddly enough giving birth to a baby - something that’s only been done by females with female bodies - that doesn’t trigger their dysphoria ?

Or for “trans girls” who think women are just some idea in their head - make up and dresses and wanting men- for whom acknowledging the material reality of womens bodies would cause envy and would expose the lies they build their lives on?

There was a time we didn’t hurt women to cater to mentally ill people or people who do not choose to live in material reality. What a shame.

Whatever else - history will remember DYC as a coward who repeated lies and bullied women and refused to acknowledge them as a sex class. The Cass review has already turned the tide in England and people are waking up to this gender mania- won’t be too long until word spreads.

1.It doesn't make pregnancy seem like an illness. You are the one who is doing that.The research into pain you are talking about is not limited to women who go through pregnancy. If anything this is a long overdue recognition.

2.Including binary/trans/intersex people in such criteria has nothing to do with female bodies not receiving adequate medical assistance. This assists inclusion and social justice, if anything.

3.You seem distracted while talking about use of pregnant person, you seem to have let your bigotry spread into the territory, unrelated to the discussion - traditional parenting roles, which you seem very desperate to enforce upon "men" and "women". This shows that you actually seem quite dreadful if a woman doesn't fit her traditional role as a mother, working as a unpaid labourer.

A man with a penis won't be able to get pregnant but others without it can. I bet you don't even know the atrocities that such trans/non binary and also intersex people face. Our legal system doesn't even recognise the existence of intersex individuals despite them being 1 out of 100 people. Your insensitivity is disheartening, yet unsurprising.

I can go on, correcting you, trying to make you understand, but you probably won't care.

I love this. Ill engage as long as you want sweetie. Im quite confident about my thinking on this issue. I was on the trans side and changed my mind after thinking about it. Theres no one quite so eager to debate as an apostate.

1) People first language was pioneered by disability rights activists- someone isnt just lame or blind- its a person with ambulatory/ visual disabilities. To be clear- I have no problem with that. You dont even know the history of this rhetoric. The reason trans activists want us to use "pregnant people" "people with cervixes" etc- is because they want us to play along with the delusion that men can give birth or that women can have penises. Thats just not true- the only coherent explanation of the words man and woman is- adult human male, adult human female. Thats it. Everything else is social stereotype and gender expression- go on then- define for me what a man or a woman is without resorting to a circular definition.
The research into pain im talking about is absolutely limited to adult human females- women. men cannot get pregnant- they dont have ovaries or uteruses. the reason that research was not done- was because women's pains and problems were dismissed as whinging and at worse- as hysteria by male dominated medical industry in the past. nothing to do with any trans people- women- adult human females. It wouldnt have changed if the women had butched it up, had double mastectomies and changed their pronouns.
Being an adult human female is not a medical condition. Being an adult human female is about the normal thing for half the people in this world. Without women no body would be alive. to reduce being a woman to "pregnant person" suggests that pregnancy is a malady one is going through which is not the case. Pregnancy is just a part of life. And the problems women face when pregnant dont end at birth. Have you heard of post partum depression? Do you even know what happens to womens bodies and how long it takes to recover post pregnancy?

babies dont at random choose which parent will gestate them- its always the adult human female- the woman. No body in my family or in any family I know has been born from a male- do you know any?

Calling adult human females "pregnant persons" treats them as individuals that do not belong to a collective identity. They absolutely have a collective identity- women. And they deserve that identity to be able to speak about their collective suffering. To not allow them to do so in order to please men is misogynistic.

Not only that- thinking of pregnancy as a transient condition that could afflict anyone at random mischaracterises it. its part of being a woman- its not a singular event- and all women and only women are affected by laws and policies regarding pregnancy. Trans-women cannot get pregnant or have abortion- they are male- they are adult human males- men. Sorry if that hurts feelings- but its not kind to lie to people experiencing distress.

2) We cannot include "non binary" "intersex" and "trans" all along with women because the world isnt divided into men and everyone else- thats an incredibly sexist way of looking at the world. adult human females- women- form most of the planet- they form their own damn category. The best argument for non binary is that a person exists whose soul is not masculine or feminine- congratulations sweetheart none of the rest of us have masculine or feminine souls either- youre just as special as everyone else. Even if I get past the fact that the existence of souls is not proven, why would a soul have a gender that is so culturally specific? do american non binary souls wear skirts and indian non binary souls wear sarees? its all nonsense.

"Non binary" asserts that there are souls and that for a few special people their souls have no culturally specific gender. I would assert that gender roles and stereotypes are nonsense. No one really feels all masculine or all feminine all the time. Everyone is nonbinary in their personality- that doesnt mean youre not a male or a female and it doesnt mean you wont be a boy/man or a girl/ woman depending on age. Its incredibly cruel to think other people lack the rich inner life you think you have.
Same with trans- there is no such thing as being born in the wrong body- you only get one body in this world- who elses body should you have been born in? There is only non conforming behavior- and im all for it. If youre a girl and you want to do traditionally masculine things- go on. You have full support. Become a bus driver, join the army, do sports, be the bread winner. If youre a boy and you want to do traditionally feminine things- dance in the ballet or wear sarees or spend your time playing with dolls- go for it. Id fully support you. But that feeling doesnt make you the opposite sex. That feeling doesnt mean you have to get disastrous operations or get hormones which will shred your body. And that feeling doesnt mean that males can be women. Catering to those feelings over the material concerns of women is the definiton of misogyny.

Which exact trans people and non binary people are included in "pregnant people" ? are they adult human females? then they are women. Thats all there is to it. Im not trying to exclude people. You are. You think women are not women if they like to do manly things or have masculine interests. I see the butchest lesbian in the world and I just think shes a woman. Because in my book being a woman is not a dirty thing.

3) I have said not one thing about traditional parenting roles you numpty. Are you really this thick? This allegation is made in such incredible bad faith I have to say it causes outrage. To say women birth and nurture their babies from their body isnt to say that women should stay home and take care of kids or that men should go to work and be emotionally distant. Youre setting up a false binary- either women are bound to behave one way because of biology- or biology is irrelevant. As with most things in human nature- biology and socialisation are intertwined, and one can figure out if biology needs to determine individual life choices or shackle sex classes to gender roles.
My mother worked most of my life and my dad stayed home to take care of us- that didnt mean she wasnt my mother anymore- she had given birth to me and nourished me from her body. Thats all im saying. You are the one imposing gender roles and telling people " if you dont want to act according to these gender roles- maybe you should try to change sex and claim you have a different sexed soul".

I dont think taking care of ones own children is dreadful miserable unpaid labour. I think theres plenty of joy to be found in taking care of ones own children and plenty of fulfillment. I want to live in a world where women dont have to pay a penalty for having children with employment- but I dont see womanhood as a curse. You do.

What man are you talking about that can get pregnant and doesnt have a penis? is that person female? is she an adult human? how do you explain what a man is if he does not have small gametes that could produce sperm? You have confused sex and gender roles and gender stereotypes so much it has lapsed into incoherence. Only adult human females- women- can get pregnant. I dont care about claims about special gender souls- most religious people think they have special souls that doesnt make their religions literally true.

Do you even know what intersex is? there are essentially 5 different types of conditions- disorders of sexual development- where a baby might be born who doesnt have strictly xx or xy chromosomes. this may be any number of combinations, xxy, xyy, xy but with genital defects, xx with genital defects- whatever. Intersex is as far from trans as paralympians are from those guys who have phantom leg syndrome or famine victims are from bulimics. there is no belief claim with intersex people. theyre not claiming they can be women if they say so, theyre not saying they have special non-binary gender souls. They have medical conditions which- in most cases- people dont even know they have this genetic defect- they carry on just fine. In cases where there is a visual bodily defect- people do get tested and find out that they have a chromosomal abnormality. There is an all too easy way to resolve that- if you have y chromosomes- youre a male. And if you have only x chromosomes- youre female. thats it.Thank you for coming to ted talk. However they want to dress or present themselves is fine- but they should know- if they have y chromosomes theyre not female and they cannot get pregnant. It is disgusting that you want to coopt people with genuine medical conditions into this crazy gender soul movement that wants to hurt women.

Our legal system doesnt need to recognise intersex individuals because 1) most intersex individuals wont know thats what they are- and 2) those that do- still fit into the male female binary. There are no rights that they do not have that other people have. If they are violated without consent by quacks when they are babies- that is assault and medical malpractice. A legal remedy already exists.

You can keep trying to "correct" me. Cause I know the possibility of a woman engaging in "wrongthink" is awful to you and you need to correct them as if theyre too stupid to understand your complicated (read:bullshit) philosophy or religion. But what you cannot do is claim im the insensitive one when you dont want adult human females- women- to have language to speak about their suffering and their rights as a sex class. You think butch lesbians are not women because you define womanhood by adherence to outdated stereotypes. Why do you dislike women or something? Why do you want women to not exist?

of course you love this.you seem like just the kind of sadist who would take delight in such bigotry. 1.claiming you used to believe something and then changed your mind doesn't automatically make your new stance profound. if you want to go round for round debating this, you'll need more than just "I thought about it." 1.The claim that such phrasing is used by trans people to promote a "delusion that men can give birth or that women can have penises" is simply false. This language is meant to accurately show the reality that some transgender men retain the ability to become pregnant and give birth after transitioning, as they were born biologically female. It does not negate the fact that only biological females can get pregnant and give birth. It is purely a descriptive term, not an ideological stance.

2.Reducing the definitions of "man" and "woman" solely to "adult human male" and "adult human female" is an extremely outdated and narrow view of gender. It fails to account for the complexities of gender identity extending beyond just biological traits.

Gender identity is now understood by medical experts to exist on a spectrum, with some individuals identifying as non-binary, 3red gender, or somewhere between/outof of the male and female binary. To dismiss these identities as mere "social stereotypes and gender expression" is highly disrespectful to their very existence.

3.While sex and gender are related concepts, they are not the same. One's assigned biological sex does not automatically determine one's internal sense of identity or gender expression. Defining these terms narrowly promotes an exclusionary ideology, not objective fact.

4.You are right that historically, women's health issues around pregnancy and reproduction were dismissed and their suffering ignored by male-dominated medical field.

However, this systemic misogyny has no direct link to transgender identities. Extending compassion and rights to other such groups does not diminish women's identity or undermine efforts to battle gender discrimination against females.

Referring to "pregnant people" does not take away from the biological reality that only females can get pregnant it simply recognizes that some individuals who can get pregnant identify outside of the female gender.

i never said that trans men can get pregnant. claiming pregnancy and childbirth are inherently tied only to the female gender identity is inaccurate. contrary to your ignorant belief a simple google serach would have sufficed to see few examples-

https://www.parents.com/pregnancy/everything-pregnancy/transgender-man-gives-birth-to-healthy-baby-talks-navigating/ and

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-64495574

5.Dismissing non-binary or third gender identities as mere claims about having special "souls" with no gender displays a deep ignorance of how some people authentically experience their gender and sense of self.

The examples you give about non-binary having to follow strict gendered cultural expressions (like clothing) fundamentally misunderstands what it means to be non-binary. Their identity is not defined by adherence or rejection of societal gender roles and stereotypes. It's about their internal sense of gender existing outside of or transcending the male/female binary.

Stating that "no one feels all masculine or feminine all the time" and that "everyone is non-binary in their personality," while true for many, invalidates and oversimplifies the very real experiences of those who do feel a sustained identity as non-binary, genderfluid, or other non-cisnormative identities.

6.The claim that "there is no such thing as being born in the wrong body" is false. Gender dysphoria, the distressing disconnect between assigned sex at birth and internal gender identity, is a recognized medical condition.

Describing medical transition procedures like surgeries and hormone therapy as "disasters that will shred your body" is not just factually inaccurate but extremely disrespectful to the lived realities of transgender individuals. These treatments save lives and alleviate clinically diagnosed anguish.

Transitioning physically and/or medically is not about catering to mere "feelings" as you suggest. It is driven by physiological and neurological factors determined by mainstream science and endorsed worldwide by leading psychological and psychiatric professionals.

To call this settled medical consensus "misogyny" that harms women is absurd gaslighting. Recognizing transgender identities validates lived experiences - it has no inherent impact on the rights, identities, or struggles of cisgender women.

7.You reveal a profound lack of understanding of intersex conditions and the humanity of intersex individuals. lets fact check you a)there are actually more than 30 different intersex variations (advice-dont use chatgpt for your information sources). b)calling the atrocities on them as malpractics seriously undermines the gravity of such abuse ,and ignores that hat they go through are human right violation and just breeds inaction. Intersex is not a "genetic defect" nor a "disorder of sexual development." It is a naturally occurring biological variation in sexual anatomy, sex characteristics, or chromosomal makeup.

they have distinct medical needs and can face discrimination or lack of appropriate legal identification if their existence outside traditional male/female binaries is not accounted for.

Intersex variations exist on a broad spectrum. Simply stating that "you're male if you have a Y chromosome" is wildly reductive. An intersex person may possess a combination like XXY or have anatomy contradicting their chromosomal markers. Reducing them to strict XX/XY is pseudoscientific bigotry.

You even state that most intersex people "carry on fine" when in reality intersex individuals face increased risks of medical trauma, psychological issues and societal stigma. This rhetoric dismisses a marginalized group with real struggles and rights concerns.

It is abhorrent for you to accuse LGBTQ advocates of trying to "coopt intersex conditions" when you clearly lack any factual understanding of intersex human beings and their experiences.

Uplifting all who face gender-based oppression should be the goal.

You are correct that simply stating women must give birth/nurture and men must work are reductive gender stereotypes and i was wrong to put that forward. An individual's private family dynamics and parenting choices should not be dictated by societal normativity.

However, you veer into blatant hypocrisy when you support gender non-conformity for kids, but then turn around and deny the same lived truth for transgender and non-binary individuals. Why is a boy playing with dolls accepted, but a transgender woman is suddenly a catered-to "delusion"? That is an irrational double standard.

You seem to struggle with separating societal gender roles from biological sex and internal identity. Nurturing is not inherently female - it is a learned skill. Male parents absolutely can nurture children, just as females may choose not to have kids. These factors are not dependent on biological sex.

thats a lot of words to say you dont understand sex and gender but here we go.

1) Im not a sadist. I dont like talking about sex or gender all day- But im forced to because of ignorance and ideological capture. I very much wanted to believe in gender souls but there just isnt any evidence of the same. It would be easier on my social life if I just went along with it but the fact that I still cant should at least clue you into the fact that these are sincerely held positions. The fact that Im an apostate should at least clue you into the fact that I might have seriously considered arguments in favor of gender ideology- regardless of if you accept my arguments as true.

"transgender man" is a female person who has undergone mastectomies and phalloplasty- that doesnt make them less female. cancer patients get mastectomies- breasts are not what make women women. A phalloplasty doesnt mean you dont have ovaries or xx chromosomes and it isnt even a working penis. Its profoundly misogynistic to think that body modification procedures can change sex or pull someone outside of the category of adult human female- women. They remain female and adults and human, and therefore women despite any surgeries they may have or any exogenous hormones they can take. Female athletes who take testosterone to dope remain very much female. Every cell in their body is coded xx- female. Its not a surprise to me that "transgender men" or- females- can give birth. Im asking you to show me a male - a man- who can bear children. Its absolutely an ideological claim that we must prioritise "gender identity" or gender souls rather than sex- the basis of the oppression of women for millenia. Its an ideological term used to break female solidarity and female identity as a collective group- a sex class.

2) Explain to me what a gender identity is then? If its not a soul type claim what kind of claim is it? Can you have a racial identity that is different from your race? can a white woman really be a black woman on the inside? Can an uppercaste man authentically and deeply feel that hes actually dalit? Race and Caste are far more socially constructed and far less biologically attached concepts than gender and sex- but you wouldnt agree with trans racialism because of received wisdom about how important the historical oppression of caste and racial groups are- why do you think historical oppression of women is not as important?

You say this is outdated science. The way I understand it- mammals can either produce sperm or ova- eggs. Please show me the person who produces a mix of both, or something in between- like a spreg or a spegg- we can then talk about whether the science is outdated. Medical professionals in thrall to ideology have done dangerous things before- Do you know what lobotomies are?

Most medical professionals will actually tell you that sex is largely binary and that transition will not actually change that- transition is a therapy aimed to ease dysphoria- it doesnt actually change sex. Read some Richard Dawkins or colin wright or on this if you want to. theyre very clear evolutionary biologists.

3) Of course whether or not youre female or male has no bearing on what activities you find interesting or on whether youre comfortable in your body or on whether you want to do "womanly things" or "manly things". Of course sex and gender are different. Where we differ is that you think sex is unimportant enough to not consider it when talking about women in medical contexts. I dont. You think gender identity should be how society is ordered. I think all gender roles and behaviours and stereotypes are impositions of the patriarchy and are nonsense. We should do away with them. We should especially not encourage little girls and boys to get surgeries and take body destroying hormones so they can more easily fit into social stereotypes they desire.

You take the claim of a gendered soul at face value. What do you mean by "gender identity" if not that? I dont think there are gendered souls at all. If you have any proof of the existence of gender identities as an objective fact- please share. Keep in mind though that someone claiming they have a special gender id or a gender soul is not enough proof just as a schizophrenic claiming he can see dead people doesnt actually prove the existence of ghosts.

Are there brain scans that show that trans identified males have female brains? Theyve done studies to figure this out- and when you control for sexuality they actually dont show that at all, you can clearly tell that trans identified men- transwomen- still have male brains.

4) So at least we agree that the female sex has been oppressed by the male sex. You seem to claim that this shouldnt affect trans identified males because theyre a special type of male that doesnt benefit from being a male and doesnt show male pattern criminality. Please look at studies- "transwomen" or males- show exactly the same pattern of criminality as males do. they enjoy the same privileges that comparable males do. If you dont believe the studies- please go to reduxx and look at story after story of who is attacking women.

Not allowing females- to be a consolidated group with an identifier- women and girls- and prioritising gender identity claims over lived experiences and history of the female sex is absolutely ideology and one that is dangerous and must be confronted. When you say "pregnant people" instead of women- adult human females- you are essentially saying that men- can get pregnant and that women cant. Youre doing this to cater to "transmen"- who are female, and "transwoman"- who are male. youre just flipping them in the language. There is no transwoman on the planet who can get pregnant or have an abortion. There is no trans man on the planet who can impregnate a woman. Sex is the category that matters when we talk about abortions about pregnancies- not this undefinable unprovable gender identity. You want to compromise the language and change it around so we're all confused because you think the struggles of trans identified people is more important the struggles of women. You think even when talking about rape and abortions we should be mindful of the feelings of trans identified males. I disagree. Women- Adult Human Females- matter. They deserve language that allows them to talk about themselves.

Abortions dont just affect pregnant people- they affect anyone who can get pregnant. Im not pregnant right now but I can get pregnant some day- so a supreme court ruling on whether a fourteen year old girl can have an abortion after 26 weeks affects me. It affects all women- adult human female. It affects no men- trans identified or otherwise.

The "trans men"who have given birth are FEMALE. And theyre ADULTS. and theyre HUMAN- thats why theyre pregnant. Their gender identity had no role to play is whether they could get pregnant- theres the whole lie laid bare. They might like the aesthetic of having a beard and wearing pant suits and changing their names- they will still be women. Sex Matters.

5) You claim that non-binary is valid and that my characterisation of their claims as gendered souls is oversimplifying- explain what non binary is otherwise? What is an identity to you?

If they are trying to break free of gender oppression (gender roles and behavior and stereotypes) why do they always imitate the gender of the opposite sex? if youre trying to be "non binary" to move beyond gender roles and stereotypes surely that must mean a male wouldnt see nail polish or skirts or pink as feminine- but yet- alok vaid menon dresses exactly in that culturally bound way to signal his "non binary" identity. If youre a non-binary woman- surely that must mean you dont see short hair or pant suits as masculine- but thats exactly what sara ramirez dresses as to signal her identity claims. Non-binary is completely swept up in the culture. Its extremely culturally specific- indian non binary men dont necessarily wear short skirts- they wear sarees. Indian non binary women dont necessarily become gym bros- because lets face it- they cant. But they certainly will chop their hair off. Its a movement entirely obssesed with sex stereotypes. Now I dont care- present how you want- but dont tell me that your aesthetic choices mean youre not male or female. Or that youre not a woman or a man.

Or that it makes you an oppressed category. Absolutely every person I know is non binary- no one feels comfortable with stereotypes. I havent met a woman who hasnt been relieved to kick off her heels and take off her bra after a long day. And I havent met a man who doesn't like to be the little spoon or who doesn't cry sometimes. Your parents are probably non-binary.

If you are arguing that the distress self identified "non-binary" people experience at gender roles is worse or graver than the distress regular old women and men face at those same sex stereotypes and gender roles- you are imagining that the inner lives of "cis" people are less complicated and less fraught and easier- that they fit easily into gender roles- all unproven, and all incredibly cruel. It is cruel to think women- adult human females- dont feel unease and discomfort and distress at the gender roles and stereotypes foisted upon them. Every woman I know has struggled and continues to struggle with societal expectations of femininity. Or men come to think of it- every man struggles with masculinity.

If you believe claims of oppression simply because they are made by someone you feel pity for- I have a few hundred thousand brahmins who will tell you theyre the most oppressed caste in the country. And a few hundred thousand white people who want to tell you their lives matter too.

6. There is no such thing as born in the wrong body. Please explain to me who elses body a trans person should have been born in. How do we know if our body is right or wrong? is there a soul/ body matching test that im not aware of? Do you take a quiz on buzzfeed? Can a white person be born in the wrong body and be really black because they like black culture more? Is eminem really black after all?

There obviously is such a thing as gender dysphoria- or distress at gendered body. Guess what- not everyone who has gender dysphoria ends up transitioning. Most adolescents - something like 80% who have gender dysphoria will find that it resolves as they go through puberty. And many of them turn out to be gay. Go talk to some old lesbians- they'll tell you they thought they were born in the wrong body but eventually realised they were just gay and their body was not the problem. Go talk to gay men- they will tell you they wished they were girls as teens so boys would like them and they wouldnt get bullied but that once they made peace with their internalised homophobia the dysphoria resolved itself.

Claiming that experiencing gender dysphoria means youre born in the wrong body is like claiming that experiencing body dysmorphia means a girl who weighs 45 kgs really is fat and we should give her life saving liposuction. Or claiming that people who want to cut off their limbs are actually in the wrong body and we should cut off their limbs. Or that Van Gogh really had ear dysphoria and he was supposed to be one eared all along- he was born in the wrong body with two ears.

I feel for people to experience dysphoria- But if you look at academic literature on this- dysphoria is a symptom of many mental illnesses- PTSD, Bipolar Disorder, Borderline Personalities, what have you. The proper treatment for gender dysphoria is patience and cognitive behavioural therapy and more science- not invasive and useless phalloplasties and vaginoplasties and mastectomies and hormone therapies that do not work.

Did you know that medical studies -highly ranked ones- have found that transitioning doesnt actually reduce suicidality on a long timeline? Did you even bother to read the cass report? What was happening to kids in the Gender ID services clinic in England? they werent being treated for any other illness as soon as they said they had dysphoria- they were immediately pushed to transition and that led to soo much regret. Its a damn medical scandal.

Even if you think all the scientists who disagree with you are biased and phobic- go to the detrans subreddit and look at all the posts from teenagers where theyre begging someone to tell them their breasts will grow back after mastectomies or distressed about osteoporosis or all the failed surgeries or in distress about having to dilate their faux vaginas or about being incontinent.

Whats more- the gender ideology movement itself tells us that someone doesnt need to experience dysphoria to be transgender- or are you a "transmedicalist" or "truscum"? If you dont even need body dysphoria to be transgender then this identity claim is not related to anything medically verifiable at all- its just about " I want". And Im sorry to say- as much as people might want to- they cannot change sex.

Do you know what non-binary nullification surgery is? why dont you look it up and then tell me this is affirming surgery.

It is disrespectful to lie to people experiencing distress. Gender surgeries absolutely shred your body. You have osteoporosis for hormone treatments- thats proven. Phalloplasties- people actually die from that- they become incontinent, they find that their neo-penis doesnt actually ejaculate and isnt a penis at all, they chop off a huge part of their arm or thigh to make that neo penis in the first place. Go listen to scott newgent or keira bell talk about how horrible their lives have become since transitioning. Go listen to some trans people. Vaginoplasties are a disaster- what they essentially do is cut off your penis and mould it around a hole that is carved in your body near the perineum. This isnt a vagina- it doesnt self clean like vaginas do so there are infections galore, its also built around your intestines so you have tears and fecal matter getting in the neo vagina that causes not just smell- but infection. but also- unlike a real vagina- you have to regularly dilate it every day to keep the wound from closing up. This isnt me saying this- this is patron saint of transgenderism- andrea long chu saying it. In NYT hes said that he didnt have suicidal tendencies until after transitioning. Heres another one: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/opinion/sunday/vaginoplasty-transgender-medicine.html (Mod: I know this is too graphic, I hated writing it and thinking it- but without discussing it in plain terms we will erase the suffering that these people go through and turn them into tokens)

Have you even seen whats happened to Jazz jennings after hes gone through the surgeries? how distressed he is? or elliot page? does she really seem happy to you?

You know why you think that gender surgeries help prevent suicide? because the medical establishment doesn't do long term follow ups. Because they dont care about mentally ill people. Do you know what they found in the making of the Cass report? they found that the NHS in england did not retain the same ID number for someone pre- and post- transition surgeries. That made long term follow up impossible. Why would they do that? Wouldnt that be important to prove just how life saving these surgeries are? In the few studies out of netherlands where they did do long term follow up they found that transition did not reduce suicidality. Here is a recent study from the american urology association that shows that suicide attempts- coded as psychiatric emergencies doubled for men after going through vaginoplasties. and the rates for suicide increased after phalloplasties too. https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1097/JU.0000000000001971.20 The study actually recommends that people who have psychiatric problems who do have suicidal tendencies should be counselled in other ways and not pushed to transition- it is not life saving care.

You think its "kind" to be polite and play along with the word games and delusions and give these kids and adults whatever they want. I think care for people who experience gender distress must be based on the highest possible quality of medical evidence- just like most other medicine. Which one of us is more compassionate again?

There is absolutely no medical consensus on medical care for transgender people. If you only listen to the quacks at WPATH, and not look at why most of europe has gone back on gender surgeries and hormone therapies- and you dont listen to transgender people who will tell you different- you have decided your stance based on ideology. Please read the Cass systematic evidence review, read Jesse Singals work. This is the biggest medical scandal since homeopathy or since lobotomies. And you think that people should have a right to do this to themselves.

6 b) the idea that it is womens job- at the point of self erasure- to recognise and validate the identities of trans identified males is ridiculous. It is not. It is not a womans job to avoid emasculating men by failing to affirm their masculinity. And it is not a womans job to avoid distress to transwomen by failing to affirm the femininity of trans identified men. Women- adult human females- have too much to do on their own. They do not need to include or cater to any one else. This is only controversial because you think women should be accomodating and keep sweet. You wouldnt insist that black lives matter affirm rachel dolezal, and you wouldnt ask dalit rights movements to affirm the belief claims of brahmins who feel oppressed. You wouldnt ask labour movements to affirm the guy who claimed he had affluenza. Women- adult human females- still have to go to the supreme court in this country to argue for abortion when its a 14 year old kidnap and rape victim. women- have to deal with living in a world where revanna and brij bhushan and many many other powerful men think they own their bodies. Today I met a nurse who was crying because her 15 year old sister had been sold by their relatives to some old man. I went with her to the police station. Today. Women- dont need to bend or bow to any movement that makes it difficult for women to speak about their collective struggles.

7. Im not ignorant of intersex conditions- you are. I didnt say there were only 5 conditions- i said there are 5 KINDS- categories of conditions. If you want to argue that 1% of people are intersex- and they all know it- you have to tell me where they all are and how many you have encountered. Among the 30 you conditions you picked out- using a google search- youre including kleinfelters syndrome- people with an additional x chromosome- so xxy- these people are unambiguously male even if they have lower testosterone,are not able to produce much sperm and have little body hair. Because none of those things actually make someone male. This is a genetic defect that occurs after conception and men who are infertile and may have some breast tissue growth and little body hair still remain men. Most people with Kleinfelter will not know they are technically intersex until well into adulthood- and you need a blood test or a urine test to prove it. They go through life not being oppressed in any way because of their intesexuality.
You are also including within those 30 conditions people who have turner syndrome- these are females with a genetic defect that means they only have one x chromosome not two. symptoms include short stature, heart problems, learning disabilities, and delayed puberty. People with turner syndrome can get pregnant with fertility treatments- because they are unambiguously female. People with turner syndrome get diagnosed either prenatally or in teen/ adult years with a chromosomal analysis test. But they can go through life without knowing they have it until they face difficulties conceiving.
You are also including in those 30 conditions late onset adrenal hyperplasia- symptoms include early puberty, irregular periods, acne, male pattern baldness, facial and body hair, and infertility. These people are unambiguously female. There are no genital defects. These are women. Women with hirustism are women. If you exclude these three conditions from your "intersex" group- because they are unambiguously male or female- your figure of roughly 1% taken from anne fausto sterlings study here https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6300(200003/04)12:2%3C151::AID-AJHB1%3E3.0.CO;2-F
Comes down to 0.018 % a miniscule number compared to people for whom their sex is unambiguously male or female.

Transgender ideologists also like to claim that PCOS is a form of intersex. Clearly it is not- It happens to people with ovaries- females. Women.
Lets go back to those thirty intersex conditions you claimed. Lets see- theres people with micropenises- again- doesnt make you less male. Theres people with enlarged clitorises- still female. People with congential adrenal hyperplasia- who still have only xy or xx chromosomes. Theres people with aromatase deficiency- who may have external deformed genitalia but have xy chromosomes and have testicles that might be internal- still male. People with androgen insensitivity syndrome- only affects XY people who have no uteruses or no ovaries- clearly men. people with complete androgen insensitivity might have female outer organs- but they also have undescended testes- capable of only producing sperm- clearly male. Most of these people were on a pathway to produce either ova or sperm. nothing in between. not a spectrum.

I can keep going on and on- but clearly a) true intersex is far rarer than 1%, and b) while some intersex conditions might be observable at birth- nearly every other one is not. Many people go through life being intersex and not knowing it until they have to get a fertility test because they are failing to conceive.

Intersex collective groups dont want children to be operated on or for them to be prescribed any treatments that might harm them because of these abnormalities- thats what the Supreme court said in Supriyo. that flies in the face of transgender movement claiming that "gender affirming care"- surgeries and hormones are lifesaving and necessary for kids. Its not the same thing at all. Theres an inconsistency if you were looking for one. Your movement is coopting them. You are the insensitive uneducated one.

The medical trauma that a small minority of intersex people have experiences is terrible and awful- and its medical malpractice- its got nothing to do with gender souls and everything to do with quack doctors not understanding what theyre doing. It has NOTHING to do with gender identity at all. Most intersex people dont want to present as the opposite gender- they want to be left alone and go through life without medical interventions.

If you think defective or non functioning or poorly functioning female anatomy means someone is not a female you are essentially excluding women with breast cancer/ uterine cancer/ infertility/ hirsutism/ a whole host of other things. Secondary sex characteristics dont matter for sex- primary ones do. do you produce sperm or egg.

You think theres a contradiction between saying males are not women and saying boys can braid hair and play with dolls? what a mindpretzel youve bent into. I have ZERO problem with males doing anything they wish as long as it doesnt hurt women. Wear a saree, play with dolls, have sex with other men- whatever floats your boat sonny boy. But that does not make them female- that does not make them adult human females- that does not make them women. there is no "female gender" and "male gender". gender is just social stereotypes and roles and behaviours and I think people of either sex should be free to defy all of those things. That doesnt mean sex stops to exist or matter. Sex Matters. Sex and gender are different.

You are the one struggling with gender roles and sex. When I say nurture from your own body- i clearly mean breastfeeding and feeding the fetus through the placenta- its a thing only women can do. I dont mean they should be "nurturing" or "mothering". Im not very mothering myself. Its interesting to me that you read that and your mind immediately went to stereotype rather than biology.

Internal identity- is undefinable and unknowable and to be taken totally on faith because someone claims its their authentic lived experience- thats religious nonsense and its authoritarian and thats all there is to is. I dont care about feminine or masculine souls- I only care about material reality- its kind of the basis on which all oppression movements have been fought.

Keep going- youve already abandoned quite a few of your talking points from the last exchange- youre not insisting that its womens jobs to accomodate men, and you recognise that it was females that were oppressed by medical industry. and that being one sex doesnt mean one should follow stereotypes. I know you have a brain somewhere that sees the lack of logic and inconsistencies in this movement- youve had these thoughts yourself and brushed them away because you didnt want to be bigoted and someone told you that to think otherwise was plain and simple bigotry. Have a heretical thought for once and think for yourself. Ask some questions that make you uncomfortable. Maybe you will find that you dont have choices other than suspending critical thinking or being called a bigot. You could try and figure out whats true for yourself. Ask me questions if you like. Apostates love having these conversations.

It is disgusting that he feels the need to virtue signal and cater to this madness in a case about a 14 year old girl needing to abort a baby too late. Think about it - 14. Who impregnated her ? Who is getting abused and by whom and who is suffering harm because of their female body here ? Isn’t this an issue of womens rights ? Don’t we need that sex class based language to actually ensure these issues are taken seriously inside and outside the courtroom ? No - women don’t get to be a collective anymore - it’s too triggering for males who feel “excluded”. They can just be individuals - pregnant person- like it’s a disability, or “abortion seekers “ like “drug seekers”. They can’t have a collective identity or have the ability to organise collectively to discuss their problems. What if non binaries and trans men ( why would any of them ever get pregnant ?) get triggered ? The feelings of the wealthy class must be protected at the cost of even having words to describe the suffering of women.

That language nonsense aside- the judgment argues that mentally ill people and minors are capable of consenting to having children. What world is this guy in? Does he understand what mental illness is? its not some cute little tik tok version of anxiety. has he been in a mental health ward? There are people screaming continuously and throwing things- people who have to be restrained because they are a danger to themselves and to others. There are people calling their own parents slurs. there are people speaking in tongues- in a pre lingual statePeople who couldnt tell you what their own name is. I know what it is because ive been in those wards. does DYC really think they are capable of consent to having a kid? Who is supposed to raise that kid? What kind of life is that for the kid? What else are they capable of consenting to? are they capable of consenting to sex as well? this is nuts, hes pandering to some frakensteines monsters version of disability rights without actually knowing a damn thing about mental illness. Hes never had to fear for the life of a sibling or a parent who is in the asylum- thats why he thinks they can understand what pregnancy and childbirth entails.

Does he understand what a minor is? what a child is? when I was 14 I thought I would get my hogwarts letter any day now and I would grow up and marry justin timberlake and become the prime minister and the worst pain I was capable of imagining was falling off of bikes. And I couldnt keep a plant alive let alone a baby. Do we really think children are just- tiny adults? have we really lost all sense and understanding of developmental stages? If a 14 year old cannot drink, cannot vote, cannot get a tattoo, cannot fight in the army or work in a factory or cannot consent to sex- how is it we think a 14 year old should be able to consent to pregnancy, birth, and having a baby? Their brains are literally not developed enough to comprehend any of it. They havent thought about the risk to their bodies or their life let alone how to manage finances in a family. Its a kid!

He derides value judgments in the law about abortion of abnormal fetuses. Well - turns out thats what we have a legislature for- to make value judgments that we agree on as a society. It might be hard for the chief justice to understand- but we actually have a democracy and there might be some laws he disagrees with- but they are still valid laws passed by elected representatives. There is no reason to force women to carry for months and give birth to a baby that will not survive more than a few days outside the womb. Its cruel to not make that value judgment, its cruel to put women through that - they arent vessels here to birth babies - it takes a lot out of them to actually do that- emotional and physical- and it would be unspeakably cruel to force a mother to carry and birth a baby who will not live because of defects. Shes a person- she matters.

And why does he want to commit all this cruelty? to please some radical mad internet virtue signalling slacktivists? we have to start asking ourselves if he actually just ▮▮▮ ▮▮▮.

It will still not change the law of nature that if you are not born with genital then you are male.

We are having most of population under poverty but still want to do politics of America and European nations. ▮▮▮

I am not being homophobic but telling the truth. How much you try to do surgery and all but at the end nature has made you man or women until you are born with genetic defects.
▮▮

They just want to erase women as a category. Be kind is about the same thing as keep sweet and obey. If males can be women and be in female spaces the concept of woman - defined as adult human female - doesn’t mean anything anymore. They really think gender expression is all that matters- so they’ll talk about femmes and mascs. As if women wouldn’t get to assaulted if they butched it up and wore less make up and used he/him pronouns. As if the feminist movement isn’t about liberation for women but about liberation for anyone who wants to wear a skirt.

It’s a mens rights movement that focuses on what creates comfort for men , pronoun use, males in female spaces , males in womens prisons and males in womens sports and male doctors who don’t have to tell you they’re male when performing intimate care. And we cannot acknowledge women have babies and abortions because that’s transphobic- because trans women cannot have abortion or babies and that hurts their feelings.

Why does what is basically a mens rights movement not target men ? But women ? What do you think ?

Spouse and sibling are supposed to relate to relationships where there is a presumption of equality. You wouldn’t treat your brother differently than your sister. But when that presumption is defeated you have to use gendered language - you have battered wives - you don’t have battered spouses. A mother is a different thing than a father . You came physically out of one of those people. One of those people nourished you from milk from their own breast. One of those people shredded their body to make you and risked their life.

While men can and should be perfectly good parents - they cannot be mothers. And mothers deserve their own damn word that acknowledges that unique bond. And that acknowledges that women - that mothers - might need support that goes beyond what men need.

In this particular case - this is about a 14 year old kidnapping and rape victim and whether she should have to carry the baby to term because she didn’t know she was pregnant until 26 weeks had elapsed.

Do you think that’s a plight that affects women more than men ? Is sex important here ? Does it matter ? Or do you presume equality of sexes here ?

why dont you present a coherent argument against these comments? is it bigoted to think women are real? and that theyre suffering from sexism? and that they deserve language to articulate them?

JK. I know you wont present a coherent argument- youll just call people bigoted for not agreeing with you. You dont even really care about being right or telling the truth- you like shaming people- women- for having opinions that are different than yours.

I love JKR- she made her billions by writing a wonderful childrens book and she could have walked away with it but she spends a lot of that money helping women and shes unafraid of bullies who would call her bigoted- she will stand for women no matter what. Thats moral courage.

Go on- tell me exactly what JKR has said that you find to be objectionable?

LI readers are normally liberal and progressive, but on topics concerning LGBTQIA+ rights their bigotry comes out. The comments here are homophobic, heteronormative, transphobic and TERF max. It shows the sad reality that the left in India, including Gen Z left-liberals, have a lot to learn. You guys can’t support freedom for Palestine on one hand but oppose freedom for non-binary people on the other (which includes the right to gender diversity, inclusivity and non-discrimination).

Do better guys.

How has anyone said anything homophobic or heteronormative here? No one has said people shouldnt be homosexual here? Why are you force teaming? Is it because gender ideology cannot stand on its own two feet? is it trans phobic to say lesbians arent attracted to penises? or is it homophobic to contradict that?

How do you know what direction progress is in? How are you so certain because someone claimed they were "most marginalised" ? Many brahmins will claim theyre the most marginalised caste group in the country- will you believe them also or will you put that claim to the same scrutiny gender ideology is being put to here?

Why should any feminism- let alone radical feminism- include or cater to men? What is wrong with being a terf? Why should women always make room for men even within their own movement? Do you resent labour movements for excluding capitalists?

Before you pronounce that others have a lot to learn- consider that you might not have omniscient knowledge of everything. And consider that people have gone and educated themselves and come to different conclusions than you. A little intellectual humility goes a long way.

No. You do better. Misogyny is all this is.