As I understand it, NALSAR and NUJS have the following quota seats now: SC, ST, OBC, Telengana/Bengal, EWS, NRI.
Does this mean that the number of merit seats (i.e. non-reserved/non-quota seats) is now less than the above seats? Does anyone know the current numbers? If yes, isn't it a breach of SC guidelines?
From a non-legal perspective, how is it advancing legal education is high-rankers are kept out of NLUs? Does the government want them to go to Jindal?
There's nothing called merit seats. That's just an underhanded attempt on your part like that by several others to imply that the reserved category students are without merit of their own. Give all of them the same privilege that you get and then check your prowess against them. Until you can ensure that, put up with it and shut up. Otherwise, go to Jindal, who cares?
With all your claim for merit, it doesn't really seem that you possess such merit, otherwise you would have actually read the SC decision and realised that it does not apply to several of the categories that you mentioned. Merit seems to be so rarely available these days.
Indeed, a lot of bright students will essentially be forced to go to Jindal, while a few lucky ones will make it to NLUs. The super-bright ones will do a master's abroad with scholarship and settle there. The Indian government rejects brains and talent, but the West embraces them.
And before people here accuse me of being "elitist", note that not only are Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas excluded from SC/ST/OBC reservation, but so are Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs, Anglo-Indians, Goan Christians, Jains and Sikkimese/Tibetan Buddhists. Only a few states have designated a subset of Sunni Muslims as OBCs (no Shias), while Anglo-Indians, Goan Christians, Jains, Parsis, Sikhs and Sikkimese/Tibetan/Ladakhi Buddhists are completely excluded. Why? Because they are not large enough vote banks???
Reservation will make sense the day the son of a Sikh cabbie/Brahmin peon/Shia Muslim tailor/Tibetan Buddhist cook/Anglo-Indian waiter/Jain driver/Kshatriya sweeper/Goan Christian maid gets the same benefit as the son of an IAS officer who is a dalit or Yadav or Jat.
I like how the automatic subtle seguay you Jindal PR folks make to give Jindal the "best after Tier 1 NLU" tag, while it clearly isn't the best Pvt college with returns to investment ratio smh
Caste based reservations should be replaced by economic affirmative actions. This is Just a perpetual cycle. 70 years after independence and quotas still keep popping up, i wonder how Ambedkar would react to this lunacy lol.
I belong to SC Community - not mentioning the caste.
Most people from our community studying in nlus are like me; parents well educated (family income 15 to 20 lakhs) my family has around 30. There are no wealthy SC students; most are middle class like me.
The richest are OBC students. But general category students are socially more rich (family education wise and better English) but poorer than obc students wealth wise.
ST students - it's a mix, there are poorer students, first time Graduates; but there are middle class students taking these seats also.
I cannot afford jindal; so it made sense to take admission here in an nlu.
Almost everyone except st (obc, general & SC) has the same financial and social status.
There are students in my coaching center (poorer general category) who have far better ranks but still cannot dream of the place I am in. They have made comments like - I will get in even if I don't study - I think it's stupid of them to tell that.
Even thou my children will suffer, atleast creamy layer should be bought in to sc reservations. Even general category seats are taken by richest among gen cat. So
Income of ₹30 lakhs is not middle class - that is literally the top 1% of earners in India when the billionaires are taken into account as well [1]. Consider these two factors:
1. You are richer than 1,38,33,72,944 persons in India. 99% of people are poorer than you (assuming that you are the poorest person on the 1% list, which you are not).
2. This is skewed incredibly by data for the billionaires anyway, considering the fact that you need to have saved ₹42,62,062 per day since the foundation of Harappa 5000 years ago to have as much money as Mukesh Ambani has [2].
[1] See Table 3 in Chancel, L., & Piketty, T. (2019). Indian income inequality, 1922-2015: From British Raj to Billionaire Raj? Review of Income and Wealth . [2] Forbes' Real Time Billionaires List .
Study a little bit more in law school about why reservation is necessary instead of spending time on LI. Assuming your law school actually teaches that kind of stuff to begin with.
Nobody is ready to address the elephant in the room. Reservations based on caste has failed.
1) Privilege worked just like it works. When a certain people of reserved class secured reserved seats for the first time, they earned social and economic and political capital which enabled them to equip their children with the same. These children with all the capital and privilege were now competing for the same bunch of reserved seats with people from their own community who were never fortunate enough to get education or reservation in past. One of the major reasons why even after so many years only a small percent of dalits or tribal communities have not been able to use reservations remains to be this. While a simple solution to this would be to put a bar on the number of times a person/family can use reservations or to impose a creamy layer, the people who advocate for reservations in elite educated circles (even in LI) which mainly includes the educated people from SC and ST would never let such a policy come into force because that would mean cutting their own privilege.
2) Reservations have not helped because you cannot suddenly provide someone a seat in a nice university and everything is sorted. These people then suffer in their respective universities because education does not work like that. The amount of money that is spent on reservations, if it was infused into the primary, secondary and senior secondary education system to bring in specific social policies for the aggrieved, it would have benefited them more and reservation would have not been needed and students from all sorts oppressed background would have been scoring above people from general category. We could have not just have had free education but free education and good schooling system if all that money was used properly. But the fixing the problem from grassroots is nothing compared to reservations in terms of visibility and hype in terms of the votes it brings so politicians would never do that
3) Times have changed, education is more about financial privilege than social privilege now. Reservations were needed initially because people were literally not allowed to sit in classes but times have changed. Anyone can get education in the best private schools and your caste doesn't matter but you might not be able to afford it. Thanks to unemployment a rich Dalit businessman can easily get an upper caste servant now.
There have been multiple loopholes discovered by the state and union government to bring in newer form of reservations. And at one point it will become redundant. Public institutions will not own the same esteem they hold now. And that will be the death of subsidised education, a practice most developed counties have adopted. Obviously Jindal is and will be benefitting off this, other private institutions will too. Why do you think big corporate groups are all suddenly coming up with these super bougie educational institutions like Jio Uni, Krea Uni etc. the caste based reservation can not go like this because if they do, the social setting of our country is such that the nation will burn in riots and there will be a civil war. But there can be certain amendments briught in, for example putting creamy layer bar on reservation. In my opinion, if a person is earning more than 12 lakhs pa they do not need reservations
Exactly, I want one question addressed for those defending reservations. Why do wealthy members of the SC/T community (not those who can easily afford housing, food, and schooling, but those who earn enough to have surplus capital) refuse to agree or petition for wealthy SC/T members to give up their seats voluntarily or through legislation for members of their own community who have never had enough means to afford quality education or basic essentials?
If wealthy general category people aren't giving up their seats in favor of poor general category students, then I fail to see why such an onus exists on the wealthy reserved category students either. The reservation as it stands now is because of social and caste discrimination. Regardless of one's economic background, those do exist in the country. One wonders how people actually having received any quality legal education fail to understand that.
1) Because Wealthy reserved students constantly argue for the continuation of the policy citing reports that most dalits are underprivileged. And words like social equity. You cannot have equity if only a percentage of the total population meant to use reservations is using it again and again.
2) Moreover Rich general people who voted for the Hindu majoritarian central government did bring in EWS quota for non SC/ST/OBC kids. So yes seats were taken from rich general people and nobody really opposed.
Would you now support a sub-reservation within SC/ST quota for the not-so financially well off?
1. Not really. That's a huge generalisation that you made. There's no upper class of general category that made such a demand in particular. 2. EWS is not a reality all across the country. In fact, given that this is a platform for lawyers, majority of the law schools are yet to implement it. Nor is EWS a reality in the professional side of things. There are also multiple problems with EWS categorization, but I'll accept it now as a work in progress because I agree with the overall principle. 3. Sure. I am actually not from a reserved category myself. But I'll have no problem with such a sub-category. The problem that I have is not with those who wish for a better and more effective reservation scheme, but with those who speak against caste-based reservations at all, because the latter neglect the reality that prevails in India and parrot instead of all discrimination being solely economic in nature, which is nowhere close to the truth, as people from relatively well-off families but also from reserved category often find out to their chagrin.
Yes, and the day that you realise that most people making it through the general category are only being able to do so because of generational privilege, that will be the day when you realise why reservation is necessary.
I am really apologetic because for the lack and loss of words, I’ll have to call your response extremely dumb. The usage of this strong word is not unfounded, your response does not stand against any logical, academic or moral standard.
1) This is a classic case of whataboutery which is considered extremely fallacious in legal world (tu quoque in latin). "Oh India does not have even roads? But what about Pakistan?"
2) Wealthy members of general category do not have reserved seats for themselves to give up. Moreover, there is already EWS quota for that and this was kind of brought in via wealthy upper caste union government and was supported by people of general category (rich and poor) by a lot of pomp. Also I hope you understand that there is a difference between a rich general category kid giving up his seat in an institution and a scheduled caste student giving up his reserved seat in an institution because if the former happens the kid can not apply to the institution in question while in the latter he can still get in the via the normal route.
3) The affluent general category people never (unfortunately) claimed a moral and social high ground by using heavy words like "privilege", "equity", "affirmative action", "attrocities" which are very much real but never used by the oppressors however you have used all the terms needed to define a socially correct society and hence the onus of acting upon what you claimed was the intention behind introducing affirmative action in the form of caste based reservation lies on you, not them. Hence you have to make sure that the purpose for which reservations were brought in and the reasons that you use to justify reservations are still the driving force behind caste based reservations.
I am sorry but when you compare you not giving up your reserved seat with the self serving and inconsiderate actions of wealthy and privileged general category kids you are insinuating that you are only providing more credibility to what the guy in comment 4 said, you are using the caste based reservation for your own personal benefit, entirely ignoring those within your own community who need it more than you quite contrary to the intention with which it was brought in. As far as I know, it was brought in to enforce social equality and not to introduce class within caste.
Regardless of the fallacies, to answer your question, yes members of the general category have always advocated for reserved seats for underprivileged kids within the general community which was introduced
Good, that's what they should do then. Caste reservation is for reasons other than economic one. It is meant to be thus. People who actually have merit would have understood that. Your entire argument is based on flawed assumption and only reveals how spurious your idea of merit is. And it is not whataboutery to demand you conform to the same standard as you're asking others to adhere to.
Please do. Start with making the taking of private tuitions and giving those a crime, ensure that all the students get the same level of education compulsorily from their childhood at the same cost, and then compare merit with everyone else. Also ensure that everyone you get to see and don't never discriminate between people from different castes in their lives.
Where are the wokes, now that it is being seen that rich people deriving expensive cars are taking advantage of reservation? Have you lost your voice? Be it BLM or SC/ST movements, dominance by the rich of one social group is sought to be replaced by dominance by the rich of another social group. That is all reservation is about.
Only meritocracy and the free market can truly liberate the downtrodden.
People who actually have merit don't cry against reservations. Only the meritless are afraid that they will be deprived of opportunities their savarna parents can't buy for them because of reservation. Since 'meritocracy' is now an 'in thing' these days, regardless of it being fictional.
Does this mean that the number of merit seats (i.e. non-reserved/non-quota seats) is now less than the above seats? Does anyone know the current numbers? If yes, isn't it a breach of SC guidelines?
From a non-legal perspective, how is it advancing legal education is high-rankers are kept out of NLUs? Does the government want them to go to Jindal?
Have seen a lot of poor General Category kids - and privileged kids having reservation.
The privilege is now an economic thing. Not social. I myself have reservation, but I don't think it's fair.
I wrote the above comment.
If I don't avail the reservation legally entitled to me; someone else will get. Why should I give up my benefits. And it doesn't solve any problem.
Also I am not rich. middle class max (Have a Honda City and family income of 30 lakhs)
And before people here accuse me of being "elitist", note that not only are Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas excluded from SC/ST/OBC reservation, but so are Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs, Anglo-Indians, Goan Christians, Jains and Sikkimese/Tibetan Buddhists. Only a few states have designated a subset of Sunni Muslims as OBCs (no Shias), while Anglo-Indians, Goan Christians, Jains, Parsis, Sikhs and Sikkimese/Tibetan/Ladakhi Buddhists are completely excluded. Why? Because they are not large enough vote banks???
Reservation will make sense the day the son of a Sikh cabbie/Brahmin peon/Shia Muslim tailor/Tibetan Buddhist cook/Anglo-Indian waiter/Jain driver/Kshatriya sweeper/Goan Christian maid gets the same benefit as the son of an IAS officer who is a dalit or Yadav or Jat.
Most people from our community studying in nlus are like me; parents well educated (family income 15 to 20 lakhs) my family has around 30. There are no wealthy SC students; most are middle class like me.
The richest are OBC students. But general category students are socially more rich (family education wise and better English) but poorer than obc students wealth wise.
ST students - it's a mix, there are poorer students, first time Graduates; but there are middle class students taking these seats also.
I cannot afford jindal; so it made sense to take admission here in an nlu.
Almost everyone except st (obc, general & SC) has the same financial and social status.
There are students in my coaching center (poorer general category) who have far better ranks but still cannot dream of the place I am in. They have made comments like - I will get in even if I don't study - I think it's stupid of them to tell that.
Even thou my children will suffer, atleast creamy layer should be bought in to sc reservations. Even general category seats are taken by richest among gen cat. So
1. You are richer than 1,38,33,72,944 persons in India. 99% of people are poorer than you (assuming that you are the poorest person on the 1% list, which you are not).
2. This is skewed incredibly by data for the billionaires anyway, considering the fact that you need to have saved ₹42,62,062 per day since the foundation of Harappa 5000 years ago to have as much money as Mukesh Ambani has [2].
[1] See Table 3 in Chancel, L., & Piketty, T. (2019). Indian income inequality, 1922-2015: From British
Raj to Billionaire Raj? Review of Income and Wealth .
[2] Forbes' Real Time Billionaires List .
First-gen college-goer
Couldn't afford coaching.
Made it to lower NLUs.
I don't know how taking reservations makes sense to you with an income of 30+. You are literally rich!
It's so skewed. You all are hogging seats.
1) Privilege worked just like it works. When a certain people of reserved class secured reserved seats for the first time, they earned social and economic and political capital which enabled them to equip their children with the same. These children with all the capital and privilege were now competing for the same bunch of reserved seats with people from their own community who were never fortunate enough to get education or reservation in past. One of the major reasons why even after so many years only a small percent of dalits or tribal communities have not been able to use reservations remains to be this. While a simple solution to this would be to put a bar on the number of times a person/family can use reservations or to impose a creamy layer, the people who advocate for reservations in elite educated circles (even in LI) which mainly includes the educated people from SC and ST would never let such a policy come into force because that would mean cutting their own privilege.
2) Reservations have not helped because you cannot suddenly provide someone a seat in a nice university and everything is sorted. These people then suffer in their respective universities because education does not work like that. The amount of money that is spent on reservations, if it was infused into the primary, secondary and senior secondary education system to bring in specific social policies for the aggrieved, it would have benefited them more and reservation would have not been needed and students from all sorts oppressed background would have been scoring above people from general category. We could have not just have had free education but free education and good schooling system if all that money was used properly. But the fixing the problem from grassroots is nothing compared to reservations in terms of visibility and hype in terms of the votes it brings so politicians would never do that
3) Times have changed, education is more about financial privilege than social privilege now. Reservations were needed initially because people were literally not allowed to sit in classes but times have changed. Anyone can get education in the best private schools and your caste doesn't matter but you might not be able to afford it. Thanks to unemployment a rich Dalit businessman can easily get an upper caste servant now.
There have been multiple loopholes discovered by the state and union government to bring in newer form of reservations. And at one point it will become redundant. Public institutions will not own the same esteem they hold now. And that will be the death of subsidised education, a practice most developed counties have adopted. Obviously Jindal is and will be benefitting off this, other private institutions will too. Why do you think big corporate groups are all suddenly coming up with these super bougie educational institutions like Jio Uni, Krea Uni etc. the caste based reservation can not go like this because if they do, the social setting of our country is such that the nation will burn in riots and there will be a civil war. But there can be certain amendments briught in, for example putting creamy layer bar on reservation. In my opinion, if a person is earning more than 12 lakhs pa they do not need reservations
2) Moreover Rich general people who voted for the Hindu majoritarian central government did bring in EWS quota for non SC/ST/OBC kids. So yes seats were taken from rich general people and nobody really opposed.
Would you now support a sub-reservation within SC/ST quota for the not-so financially well off?
2. EWS is not a reality all across the country. In fact, given that this is a platform for lawyers, majority of the law schools are yet to implement it. Nor is EWS a reality in the professional side of things. There are also multiple problems with EWS categorization, but I'll accept it now as a work in progress because I agree with the overall principle.
3. Sure. I am actually not from a reserved category myself. But I'll have no problem with such a sub-category. The problem that I have is not with those who wish for a better and more effective reservation scheme, but with those who speak against caste-based reservations at all, because the latter neglect the reality that prevails in India and parrot instead of all discrimination being solely economic in nature, which is nowhere close to the truth, as people from relatively well-off families but also from reserved category often find out to their chagrin.
1) This is a classic case of whataboutery which is considered extremely fallacious in legal world (tu quoque in latin). "Oh India does not have even roads? But what about Pakistan?"
2) Wealthy members of general category do not have reserved seats for themselves to give up. Moreover, there is already EWS quota for that and this was kind of brought in via wealthy upper caste union government and was supported by people of general category (rich and poor) by a lot of pomp. Also I hope you understand that there is a difference between a rich general category kid giving up his seat in an institution and a scheduled caste student giving up his reserved seat in an institution because if the former happens the kid can not apply to the institution in question while in the latter he can still get in the via the normal route.
3) The affluent general category people never (unfortunately) claimed a moral and social high ground by using heavy words like "privilege", "equity", "affirmative action", "attrocities" which are very much real but never used by the oppressors however you have used all the terms needed to define a socially correct society and hence the onus of acting upon what you claimed was the intention behind introducing affirmative action in the form of caste based reservation lies on you, not them. Hence you have to make sure that the purpose for which reservations were brought in and the reasons that you use to justify reservations are still the driving force behind caste based reservations.
I am sorry but when you compare you not giving up your reserved seat with the self serving and inconsiderate actions of wealthy and privileged general category kids you are insinuating that you are only providing more credibility to what the guy in comment 4 said, you are using the caste based reservation for your own personal benefit, entirely ignoring those within your own community who need it more than you quite contrary to the intention with which it was brought in. As far as I know, it was brought in to enforce social equality and not to introduce class within caste.
Regardless of the fallacies, to answer your question, yes members of the general category have always advocated for reserved seats for underprivileged kids within the general community which was introduced
Only meritocracy and the free market can truly liberate the downtrodden.