I was talking to a senior and she told me that she leaves office at max by 9:30. I've gone through a few threads here, feels like everyone's almost dead inside. I just wanted to know, IS IT REALLY THAT BAD? Should I start preparing for judiciary instead? (Work life balance is really important for me as I've health issues)
I also have a loan, and I really gotta make this choice real quick. I'm very sorry that all of you have to go through the same stuff again but please clarify my doubt...
One seriously can't maintain work-life balance at all? Give me a clear number like 9-9/9-11 something which is really practical. Thank you for your time.
If your justification is that I had it worse, so you shouldn't cry when yours is slightly less worse is a mindset that would have probably never allowed the world to become progressive. Imagine (don't say the examples are extreme, I know you got the point) the victims of race crimes and discrimination 50 years ago looking at the victims today of the same today and saying - Kids these days want to have their cake and eat it too.
I still have that opportunity, my parents would be delighted to hear that I want pursue engineering but I genuinely think that law is my calling. Let's hope for the best, please make it a better place until our gen arrives ✌️
Exactly. This generation has made law a dreadful professional because they dont know how to manage stuff and this has become so ubiquitous as to be accepted as normal. To all the budhao PA's and Partners here, you'll all die soon and so will the toxic work environment.
This isn't what I meant, actually I have a serious health condition and I wouldn't be pretty much alive if I start ignoring my body. I'd love to work hard but my luck hasn't favoured me in that condition. Well, thank you for your response.
Boss, if you have health issues, I really hope you don't come to law firms. Even with very nice people in my team, my health has gone down. What is the point of making a lakh a month if you don't get to live (let alone have a life). Good luck with whatever you choose and hope you get well soon.
Please don't justify...far too long people with health conditions and disabilities have been made to feel incompetent or people who don't want to work without ever actually recognising that people with health conditions too do the best (like others) to the extent their bodies allow.
Every A0 / A1 these days has a health issue which doesn’t permit long hours, loans to pay off, family which is dependent on their income. Yet these A0 / A1s want to retire early, take most interesting practice area to work in, ability to take a sabbatical after 6 months and come back to the firm without any consequences, a nice house, car, travel, free guidance, mentoring, office romance, diwali lunch, diwali bonus…
You're most definitely not an HR, I have so many of my friends who have completed their MBA's and engineering degrees and are making huge bucks compared to what a law firm associate makes, please get out of this bubble that makes you think that law firm associates are the only ones who get paid so much.
It's actually pennies compared to the hours and the amount of work y'all put in. So STFU maybe
The answer to your question depends on multiple things, T1/T2 firm or in-house, practice area, team members etc. But one thing is constant in law firms:
Uncertainty of number of hours. While some days can be 16 hours, others can be 8 hours only. But you dont know that beforehand. So you have got be ready to go to war everyday.
A 9 to 9 would be your best shot in the best possible team during months when work is less. Otherwise, a 9 to 11 is a more realistic healthy team expectation. But since you'll have little discretion in choosing your team as a fresher and 90% of the teams have unhealthy hours, you'll end up with a team which works 9 to 12 and has max 1-2 days off in an entire month (even then you have to carry your phone for 'urgent work').
If health issues and work-life balance is a big concern for you, go for judicial services. With respect to loan, you'll make 1 lac per month even as a civil judge on probation - which is almost the same as what you'll make as an A0-A1. Of course, the rise in law firm will be much steeper after that but 12 lacs per annum (with mostly savings as you'd hardly have any ancillary living and travel expenses working in the government) is enough to pay off your loan. I'm assuming it's a study loan which would be max 10-12 lacs (unless you went to JGLS or the likes). You can pay it off more easily in your first 2 years as a judge than as an A0/A1 living in Mumbai/Delhi.
Now 12 lacs per annum, which will increase to 36 lacs per annum over your career (dearness allowance will take care of the inflation), is enough to live a decently comfortable life. If you're smart and since you'll have more time, you can also start a side business for passive income (in your wife/parents name). That business, if successful, may compensate for the salary difference (which will be like 1-1.5 crore, 15 years down the lane). A good business should be able to earn you 1 crore per annum.
Given that you'll be a judge, you can also enter into businesses which other young people don't dare to because of regulatory hurdles and are actually easy money making - things like a cement factory or construction or real estate. You'd have enough contacts as a judge to get the approvals! ;) So you'd enjoy the power/prestige of a judge and also make more money than a law firm partner, completely legally! (come on, no one's gonna file corruption charges against you unless you directly start taking bribes from people).
As for the place you work at, yes, you won't have the city life. But law firm associates hardly get to enjoy the city life anyway. You on the other hand will have enough vacations, holidays and money to fly off to any place you want to.
If you're willing to put in the effort of getting a business with a topline of 1cr off the ground as a "side hustle" then why waste time with your day job?
Getting approvals isn't the gating issue with most businesses. It's about having the acumen and the willingness to take the risk and then being able to grind it out over the long term.
I think you must be quite young and are definately naive if you think this is a probable scenario.
If your gut tells you that these work hours are not for you, I'd suggest start prep for judiciay immediately. Because once you enter the finances will keep you sucked in and you won't be able to call quits untill you're 100% exhausted. Health and lifestyle balance are something we don't know in law offices sadly. Don't see it changing too.
You think people who work in teaching / research/ public policy don’t work long hours?
I started my career working at an ngo. Sure I got home every day at about 7 pm- but I had to continue working from home till about 1 am/ 2 am because we were short staffed and didn’t have the money to hire more. And when we fucked up there were actual consequences- like oh this many kids went without food at school today or oh this person didn’t get bail.
I’ve also taught at an NLU. You should know that for every hour of classroom teaching a good professor will put in ten hours of reading/ research. And that’s not even counting the days and days spent evaluating answer scripts and projects and doing organising work at the university. And on top of all this you have to publish or see your career die. Sure you get to go home at 5 pm, but you have work enough to keep you up all night.
Less money doesn’t mean we don’t have as much work. It means we’ve chosen to do this job because we think it’s important even when it is less money.
Why are law firm people so self centred? You’d think they’re carrying the weight of the whole country on their shoulders the way they go on and on . The rest of us have demanding jobs too. Get over yourself.
I'm going to be brutally honest here. The work hours really depend on the firm, work area (Lit, Corp etc.) and of course the working culture of the specific team. That said, I have found that with efficiency, it's actually possible to maintain decent work hours. My own Partner (at a T1 firm) tries to make sure that associates in his team are spared work at least on weekends (unless super urgent) and, in general, that no one is given any work post say 8 or 9 pm.
Having said the above, I could assure you that there will also be absolutely mad days, wherein you will need to pull all-nighters. Mad days and mad clients (read: absurd timelines) are a constant in law firm life.
This is so demoralising. No life and no hope of improvement. Why can’t we all as a community stand up for more humane work conditions and make the profession less intimidating. I doubt any of us enjoy law any more. It’s just so sad. I enjoy upto 9 to 9 but beyond that is just ……
I also have a loan, and I really gotta make this choice real quick. I'm very sorry that all of you have to go through the same stuff again but please clarify my doubt...
One seriously can't maintain work-life balance at all? Give me a clear number like 9-9/9-11 something which is really practical.
Thank you for your time.
If you want work life balance, you don’t deserve 10-16 lakhs per annum. Pls go to judiciary. All the best.
Kids these days want to have their cake and eat it too.
I'd love to work hard but my luck hasn't favoured me in that condition. Well, thank you for your response.
What is the point of making a lakh a month if you don't get to live (let alone have a life).
Good luck with whatever you choose and hope you get well soon.
Very normal and not at all entitled behaviour
You're most definitely not an HR, I have so many of my friends who have completed their MBA's and engineering degrees and are making huge bucks compared to what a law firm associate makes, please get out of this bubble that makes you think that law firm associates are the only ones who get paid so much.
It's actually pennies compared to the hours and the amount of work y'all put in. So STFU maybe
And they have better work life balance and working environment, they aren't treated as animals.
The answer to your question depends on multiple things, T1/T2 firm or in-house, practice area, team members etc. But one thing is constant in law firms:
Uncertainty of number of hours. While some days can be 16 hours, others can be 8 hours only. But you dont know that beforehand. So you have got be ready to go to war everyday.
If health issues and work-life balance is a big concern for you, go for judicial services. With respect to loan, you'll make 1 lac per month even as a civil judge on probation - which is almost the same as what you'll make as an A0-A1. Of course, the rise in law firm will be much steeper after that but 12 lacs per annum (with mostly savings as you'd hardly have any ancillary living and travel expenses working in the government) is enough to pay off your loan. I'm assuming it's a study loan which would be max 10-12 lacs (unless you went to JGLS or the likes). You can pay it off more easily in your first 2 years as a judge than as an A0/A1 living in Mumbai/Delhi.
Now 12 lacs per annum, which will increase to 36 lacs per annum over your career (dearness allowance will take care of the inflation), is enough to live a decently comfortable life. If you're smart and since you'll have more time, you can also start a side business for passive income (in your wife/parents name). That business, if successful, may compensate for the salary difference (which will be like 1-1.5 crore, 15 years down the lane). A good business should be able to earn you 1 crore per annum.
Given that you'll be a judge, you can also enter into businesses which other young people don't dare to because of regulatory hurdles and are actually easy money making - things like a cement factory or construction or real estate. You'd have enough contacts as a judge to get the approvals! ;) So you'd enjoy the power/prestige of a judge and also make more money than a law firm partner, completely legally! (come on, no one's gonna file corruption charges against you unless you directly start taking bribes from people).
As for the place you work at, yes, you won't have the city life. But law firm associates hardly get to enjoy the city life anyway. You on the other hand will have enough vacations, holidays and money to fly off to any place you want to.
Getting approvals isn't the gating issue with most businesses. It's about having the acumen and the willingness to take the risk and then being able to grind it out over the long term.
I think you must be quite young and are definately naive if you think this is a probable scenario.
Health and lifestyle balance are something we don't know in law offices sadly. Don't see it changing too.
Even judiciary will have working for hours.
I started my career working at an ngo. Sure I got home every day at about 7 pm- but I had to continue working from home till about 1 am/ 2 am because we were short staffed and didn’t have the money to hire more. And when we fucked up there were actual consequences- like oh this many kids went without food at school today or oh this person didn’t get bail.
I’ve also taught at an NLU. You should know that for every hour of classroom teaching a good professor will put in ten hours of reading/ research. And that’s not even counting the days and days spent evaluating answer scripts and projects and doing organising work at the university. And on top of all this you have to publish or see your career die. Sure you get to go home at 5 pm, but you have work enough to keep you up all night.
Less money doesn’t mean we don’t have as much work. It means we’ve chosen to do this job because we think it’s important even when it is less money.
Why are law firm people so self centred? You’d think they’re carrying the weight of the whole country on their shoulders the way they go on and on . The rest of us have demanding jobs too. Get over yourself.
Having said the above, I could assure you that there will also be absolutely mad days, wherein you will need to pull all-nighters. Mad days and mad clients (read: absurd timelines) are a constant in law firm life.