I am from a tier 1 NLU and I have a lot of friends across tier 1 NLUs. I’ve noticed this sudden rise of disgust towards tier 1 firms, especially due to the work culture they have promoted. ELP, Indus and Argus seem better than SAM, Khaitan and CAM. Trilegal still has better quality of life and less nepotism. Luthra is not even a tier 1 now. Newer and better boutique-ish firms are emerging. S&R (though probably the worst work life balance) also pays in accordance with the work they make us do. HSA is also being considered above the traditional tier 1 in certain cases.
Are you noticing a change in these choices too? What is your list of preference in terms of law firm?
List of choice of law firm will be more interesting because law students eyes are now tired of nlu preferences. Give them marks for their work culture and pay.
I don't think its true. This has been happening for a long time. People berate these firms and join them as soon as they get a chance. Nothing has changed. Boutique firms for whatever good they might be doing, are boutique for a reason. They have limited capacity to hire people and people will end up choosing them. Please refrain from calling L&L as 'not tier I anymore'. You need to know that a dispute between the promoters of the firm does very little to change the status of the firm, at least in the short term. They are doing the same business and paying people, which they were doing say two years ago.
I will be graduating from a tier 1 NLU in 2022. While I also share the same disgust for most tier 1 firms that you have mentioned, I also think that most 2022 grads would agree with me that this is not the time to be choosy. Internships have become rare, PPOs rarer and Day Zero seems uncertain. In this market, I would be willing to join any firm as long as the pay is decent. As the saying goes, "beggars can't be choosers".
Websites like LI overhype certain firms using a shady Big 7 classification. Like the caste system, it is based on past legacy and cannot change on the basis of merit. For example, if an Indus or ELP does well they cannot be classed as Big 7 but L&L will remain Big 7 even after the recent controversies. Also, the Big 7 classification does not look at non-monetary factors like work culture, democracy within the firm etc.
With firms like Indus, ELP etc. hitting similar headcount and many others doing same kind of work, if not better, there is a need to rework the Big 6/7 tag.
Why are “tier 1 nlu” students so full of themselves? While you criticise the “tier 1 hierarchy” of law firms, your hierarchy in itself is fallacious and promotes privilege, coaching centres and no life outside the books. I graduated from AMU in 2015 and I am currently with SAM. Let me tell you something, you will still for unpaid internships. Let me tell you something more, universities like NLUO, JGLS, AMU, Jamia and Symbiosis have been providing better recruits than tier 1 NLUs. Students from these universities have a more holistic CV with semester exchanges, extra curricular, more publications and they are more presentable and have a better hold of English than most of you. You are no one to criticise the structuring of tier 1 law firms if you don’t fix yourself and hierarchy of your law schools. State reservations and other bullshit has only degraded the quality of recruits from tier 1 NLUs. And your alumni might not be as loyal, but thanks to the constant shaming, bullying and “holier than thou” attitude that tier 1 NLU kids hold, if a tier 2 or tier 3 NLU graduate becomes a partner, he’s gonna be really loyal to his alma mater and won’t even look at your guys.
Let's not devolve into this NLU- non-NLU debate, that is not the theme, also since you are at SAM, maybe you can tell us to which universities SAM went to recruit, also SAM gets interns from all law schools, what was the proportion of NLU to non-NLU kids for PPOs? If anything Amarchand has been the pioneer of creating the TIer I Firm - Top NLU Day Zero culture. AZB and others came way after the Amarchands
I don't want to engage in this conversation, but there is a clear pro to being from a good law school, whether NLU or not, this also means sorry the newer NLUs, you are not considered top quality by law firm. Unfortunate but true, however, if you are good at your work, you law school will not matter at all once you are in a law firm job.
This hierarchy was deemed to happen, it is has to be restructured. Till the year 2000, there were only 5 NLUs in India and it was very obvious that graduates from these law schools were getting into law firms. And then the batches in all these NLUs were very small and hence the network was extremely strong. Alumni picked up their junior friends and hence this created groups of certain law schools within the firms. And back then there was no choice, when I criticise tier 1 NLUs, I am criticising their products too, which means the partners of NLS, NLIU, NALSAR, NLUJ and NUJS who work at the firm.
When there was a boom in the number of NLUs, insecure students and their super senior friends at law firms ganged up to create this hierarchy. Your good law school theory I agree, most tier 1s are good law schools. But they are not better law schools, in fact because kids from tier 2 and tier 3 law schools have to hustle harder for an internship/job and are not served the same on a silver platter, I have found them to be more productive in internships and workplaces.
Why should we not devolve this into an NLU - non NLU debate? If the original post clearly talks about tier 1 NLUs, how am I expected not to point a clear malpractice that I see everyday at workplace. Unfortunately, the firm, given the earlier induction of graduates from so called “tier 1 NLUs” is full of a-holes who won’t take interns (because no or less alumni? hence less connections and hence less internships) from newer NLUs. This is exactly what I am pointing out here? Some newer law schools were clearly distinctive and have established themselves. I am talking about NLU D and JGLS. When I graduated, it was around that time when the first batch of NLUD graduates and there was this fresher batch-mate in our “tier 1 law firm” from NLU D. Alongside him were kids from “tier 1 NLUs”, the guy stood out. He clearly did. He outshined everyone, why? He didn’t get it on a silver platter, he hustled for it. Initial batches of NLU D has made it what it is today. Same goes for JGLS, when we get interns, I agree that a JGLS kid would most probably drip of privilege but he/she clearly outshines a tier 1 NLU intern. They are clearly building an institution out there and bring a completely perspective to the firm. Legal knowledge might or might not be the same but it’s the attitude which clearly stands out.
Whenever I get an opportunity, I take interns from AMU, BHU, Lloyd etc and since they know the value of this opportunity, I am not exaggerating here, these kids they start preparing and studying for the internship 5-6 months prior to the actual commencement and do great! Why? Because they know the value of what they are being offered and they earn it.
NLUO and NLUJAA are doing absolutely brilliant. You might call them tier 2 or tier 3 NLU but I’d any-day have a graduate from these universities in my team than someone from “tier-1 nlu” who is full of himself and knows he’ll get a job, well, because he’s got patriotic alumni. And this “tier 2” and “tier 3” law school discrimination that you do has only ostracised these kids but that has also made them more united. Most of your “tier 2” and “tier 3” NLUs were established only after 2005 and hence they don’t have a huge alumni base at these law firms but I am sure this hierarchy of yours is gonna backfire when they get some leverage.
Bro/ Sis, let it be- you graduated, made it into SAM and from what I gather must be working for years and have made decent money. This post is by and for students still in college. Let them fight it out. I'm sure you must have been slogging the entire week, don't tire/ stress yourself out even more with these long posts at random threads on LI. Go watch netflix and chill. "You're too old for this shit"
Im joining a (the) non Lala tier 1 firm. One of my reasons for not applying to the lalas is this. if my reporting partner, who is probably 12-15 years into the profession has to worry about his senior equity partner who has to worry about the family, I won't get any independence or freedom at all. Even if I join a Lala, do well, and make partner 10-15 years down the line, I don't want to have to be subservient to some bacha who has nepod their way into equity and has been passed on the reins.
I don't know if work culture is a diff, but wc I have heard strongly used against azb mainly, but I don't know much about them personally. I don't think this thing about HSA being rated so highly is true though (at least to the best of my knowledge). I don't think we can really apply the tier 1 distinction against boutiques like TTA SnR etc... as long the pay is same and they are corp law firms, I don't think students make much of a distinction (at least I and my firms didn't).
There might be some truth to all the comments on the toxic culture at SAM,CAM and other Tier 1s.I found this posted by a commenter on a LI conversation of an associate at Khaitan that had passed away. >35.1.1.1... >Like+7 Object-0HereItIs 5 weeks ago interesting >moderated as featured >www.geocities.ws/kream77/amarchand.html [link fixed] >Eye opener,worth a read It gives you an idea of how bad the culture issue can get.
Its called ramblings of amarchand associate.You click on link, copy it to word and then read it on word because this link here tends to then lead to some antivirus something site,so you wanna copy it to word and then read.Very very interesting read. This is the link your looking for - http://www.geocities.ws/kream77/amarchand.html
Interesting read, but bit outdated cos Bharucha broke away and now has his own firm.
Would love to know exactly what Mr. Cyril tells NLS students that they get mesmerised by him. Also, I don’t get the obsession with becoming a partner. As long as you are getting paid well, and have decent promotion - great!
If you feel the firm isn’t giving you your worth, walk out and try something else. You’ve have enough money to back you when you exit.
I have never been mesmerised by the AMSS brand.In fact it puts me off no end when every CAM press release introduces CAM as carrying forward the values of it's 104 year old brand.Its a constant reminder of the nepotism that holds back a lot if good lawyers and firms in the legal sector
The law firm sector itself knows it that Luthra isn't a Tier 1 & hasn't been one for a couple of years now. Its a matter of time that an Indus/S&R or even an NDA (or all, who knows?) gets officially acknowledged as Tier 1. The students realise it as well. They're much smarter than law firm associates give them credit for.
There are plenty of firms with better work culture: JSA, DSK, Link Legal, Barucha, P&A, Dua etc.
[...] the name partner [...] is worth being a mentor. The cutthroat competition (read eat what you kill) and lack of transparency make it an extremely toxic work environment. It used to be good once upon a time
Are you noticing a change in these choices too? What is your list of preference in terms of law firm?
Kian can correct me if I am wrong about this.
With firms like Indus, ELP etc. hitting similar headcount and many others doing same kind of work, if not better, there is a need to rework the Big 6/7 tag.
I don't want to engage in this conversation, but there is a clear pro to being from a good law school, whether NLU or not, this also means sorry the newer NLUs, you are not considered top quality by law firm. Unfortunate but true, however, if you are good at your work, you law school will not matter at all once you are in a law firm job.
This hierarchy was deemed to happen, it is has to be restructured. Till the year 2000, there were only 5 NLUs in India and it was very obvious that graduates from these law schools were getting into law firms. And then the batches in all these NLUs were very small and hence the network was extremely strong. Alumni picked up their junior friends and hence this created groups of certain law schools within the firms. And back then there was no choice, when I criticise tier 1 NLUs, I am criticising their products too, which means the partners of NLS, NLIU, NALSAR, NLUJ and NUJS who work at the firm.
When there was a boom in the number of NLUs, insecure students and their super senior friends at law firms ganged up to create this hierarchy. Your good law school theory I agree, most tier 1s are good law schools. But they are not better law schools, in fact because kids from tier 2 and tier 3 law schools have to hustle harder for an internship/job and are not served the same on a silver platter, I have found them to be more productive in internships and workplaces.
Why should we not devolve this into an NLU - non NLU debate? If the original post clearly talks about tier 1 NLUs, how am I expected not to point a clear malpractice that I see everyday at workplace. Unfortunately, the firm, given the earlier induction of graduates from so called “tier 1 NLUs” is full of a-holes who won’t take interns (because no or less alumni? hence less connections and hence less internships) from newer NLUs. This is exactly what I am pointing out here? Some newer law schools were clearly distinctive and have established themselves. I am talking about NLU D and JGLS. When I graduated, it was around that time when the first batch of NLUD graduates and there was this fresher batch-mate in our “tier 1 law firm” from NLU D. Alongside him were kids from “tier 1 NLUs”, the guy stood out. He clearly did. He outshined everyone, why? He didn’t get it on a silver platter, he hustled for it. Initial batches of NLU D has made it what it is today. Same goes for JGLS, when we get interns, I agree that a JGLS kid would most probably drip of privilege but he/she clearly outshines a tier 1 NLU intern. They are clearly building an institution out there and bring a completely perspective to the firm. Legal knowledge might or might not be the same but it’s the attitude which clearly stands out.
Whenever I get an opportunity, I take interns from AMU, BHU, Lloyd etc and since they know the value of this opportunity, I am not exaggerating here, these kids they start preparing and studying for the internship 5-6 months prior to the actual commencement and do great! Why? Because they know the value of what they are being offered and they earn it.
NLUO and NLUJAA are doing absolutely brilliant. You might call them tier 2 or tier 3 NLU but I’d any-day have a graduate from these universities in my team than someone from “tier-1 nlu” who is full of himself and knows he’ll get a job, well, because he’s got patriotic alumni. And this “tier 2” and “tier 3” law school discrimination that you do has only ostracised these kids but that has also made them more united. Most of your “tier 2” and “tier 3” NLUs were established only after 2005 and hence they don’t have a huge alumni base at these law firms but I am sure this hierarchy of yours is gonna backfire when they get some leverage.
I don't know if work culture is a diff, but wc I have heard strongly used against azb mainly, but I don't know much about them personally. I don't think this thing about HSA being rated so highly is true though (at least to the best of my knowledge). I don't think we can really apply the tier 1 distinction against boutiques like TTA SnR etc... as long the pay is same and they are corp law firms, I don't think students make much of a distinction (at least I and my firms didn't).
>35.1.1.1...
>Like+7 Object-0HereItIs 5 weeks ago interesting
>moderated as featured
>www.geocities.ws/kream77/amarchand.html [link fixed]
>Eye opener,worth a read It gives you an idea of how bad the culture issue can get.
Would love to know exactly what Mr. Cyril tells NLS students that they get mesmerised by him. Also, I don’t get the obsession with becoming a partner. As long as you are getting paid well, and have decent promotion - great!
If you feel the firm isn’t giving you your worth, walk out and try something else. You’ve have enough money to back you when you exit.
There are plenty of firms with better work culture: JSA, DSK, Link Legal, Barucha, P&A, Dua etc.
[...] the name partner [...] is worth being a mentor. The cutthroat competition (read eat what you kill) and lack of transparency make it an extremely toxic work environment. It used to be good once upon a time