While attrition are parts of all Tier-1 law firms in India, there is a sudden outflow of talent including people at SA/PA levels and in relation to B&F practice as well. Why is KCO, which prides itself in being different having so many attrition’s.
One of the many reason being pointed out is a sheer volume of work and toxic work culture of mid levels, who are at times abusive and abused the Wfh by calling and forcing work at all times. Many joinees are immediately leaving. Senior management is aware but refuses to take action against Toxic mid levels who have abused and harassed juniors by treating them like cattle. Will KCO, Delhi take a note of this????
PA/SA are known to go AWOL and then harass and give unreasonable deadlines. A recent heart attack of a graduate in there Mumbai office (it is not due to work pressure but underlying disease) but he was working till 3 am. Money is the only incentive.
Is the culture the same at your law firm and do partners and senior management need to release that it is time to treat lower levels as humans cos as KCO, Delhi realised when they leave, you do get affected.
The HR is nothing but passes paper and has no real power to deal with complaints. They would rather brush it under the carpet rather than take a stand.
Respect juniors, they are meant to work on the high salaries you give them and long hours but they are HUMANS.
More often than not, the age difference between junior and senior in tier 1 is just 2 or 3 years but the relationship between a junior and senior is akin to that of a 65 year old CEO and 20 year old intern.
There is a toxic environment but that is there is every law firm in India. We need professional bodies etc to take note of the long hours and hierarchy of organisations.
KCO is I have heard a place with a different, the senior management in the corporate team is said to be good, it is astonishingly the lack of accountability and action by senior management which gives them a free hand to treat associates and interns the way they were treated themselves. I know people at this firm in Delhi who needed the money badly but just could not take up sheer lack of respect by SA/PA, who do things with impunity since senior partners don’t undertake any action against them.
The intent of this post is not to put down KCO, but with folded hands begggg to please change the culture at the firm, young associates are being harrassed by mid levels to the core without any redressal mechanism. Insulting on teams calls, calling out at 4-5 am or working this late and then calling at 8.30 am just to ask them to forward a case law which they could very themselves pull out knowing the poor associate sent out the mail to them at 5.30 am.
PLEASE WITH FOLDED HANDS, SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE LEFT THE DELHI OFFICE IN THE PAST MONTH, NOT SO MANY PEople can be wrong. Something is going wrong culture work culture wise, save the ones who are still there, money does not compensate for everything.
To avoid repeating myself, HR and senior management need to act (who are the individually some very nice people and never misbehave or ill treat any of their associates) but then they don’t take action against the others. Not asking you to fire such people but some accountability should be set.
IF one SA/PA does not like a person, he gives a bad review and partners only have one side of the story. Maybe ask the associate once there side, then judge the facts, following natural justice which we as lawyers should know.
It's the same in the Mumbai office. Things are a lot better in another firm that I joined. I don't understand how partners refuse to make SA/PAs accountable. If the partner is unhappy with work, and the SA/PA blames juniors, what's the point of the senior? In my new team a senior got pulled up for passing the buck. That's how it's supposed to be.
Another difference is how the KCO partners didn't know and didn't care about what I was doing, they didn't ask the people I actually worked with for reviews, and they certainly didn't ask me before staffing me on new transactions.
I just want to make it clear to anyone reading this that there are teams and partners that give a damn about how you're doing. Research and join the right ones. Every firm has its gems.
You cannot have both ! Consider 35 percent of your salary being paid for getting vilified for no reason and 25 percent of salary for deleting the word life from your dictionary and 40 percent of your salary for the work you do, which is not extraordinary or path breaking.
Not really. Work pressure is perhaps inevitable. The way the Indian law firms subject their associates to abuse really isn't necessary to get the same work done in the same time. That's what representative bodies exist to counter.
Legal services are priced by law firms at a premium - the charge out offered by Tier 1 is fairly high for the Indian market (recent race to the bottom on undercutting aside). As a result, lawyers working in these firms have to provide top notch service, both internally and externally. That is what you're paid for - you are not paid to be abused. That is crap peddled by people who think abusive culture or some weird variation of 'tough love' is the only way to nurture talent in a firm. You are paid for the skills and effort and hours you put in, and nothing else. The astronomical salaries you are offered are for your brains and your back, not your dignity, and don't let half-arsed idiots tell you that the money paid to you entitles anyone to misbehave with you.
There is no excuse for abuse in these organisations, and there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to tolerate it. I have been part of the capital markets practice at a Tier 1 firm for nearly 5 years, and it was literally how great the people were that made me stick more than the money or the career advancement. If the abuse / misbehaviour is taken out of the equation, juniors can thrive and develop at these firms and become very successful commercial lawyers in their own right. That is what firms ought to strive towards, and not some apologist shit about your arse belonging to them because they threw you an extra bone.
I agree with the assessment provided above, being a former employee in the past I have faced this situation a number of times. I simply quit and went ahead, working now in another small firm but the culture and people are much better. Took a slight hit on the pay scale but that was worth it.
Not all are bad but they outweigh the good ones by a long stretch. Don’t think for a minute though, anyone leaving makes a dent, they will have 30 job seekers for one position. Toxic is the word for the Delhi office at KCO.
SA/PA and junior partners at KCO, Delhi are the real problem and not senior management. Intent here is not to defame anyone and interfere with the bread and butter of these people also as they have families as well to feed and take care off. The pressure is understandable, client wants everything quickly also is fine but to manage pressure is on these and not the client. They through you to the pigs on a slight mistake and good work earns you one time bonus every year. That’s it, all fake HR exercises will not work if no real change is bought about.
I was on this call too, and after two-three people raised the issue, I love how that was the one response he had. I left the call right after because it was clear how pointless it was.
Maybe you should stop spreading rubbish about the office and the "toxic" work culture. It is absolutely fine and I graduated from a tier 1 NLU last year. No one has put a gun to your head.
Since KCO is usually punctual with their bonus and promotions on March 31 or 1 April, there is usually a mass exodus soon after, comprising of:
(1) people who either made up their mind to leave during the year and stuck around to take the bonus (2) people expecting a promotion and didn't get one (3) people leveraging their promotion for better things (rarer for April exists).
This happens every year at every firm, it may just happen later due to deferred bonuses, etc.
It is a large organisation with over 1000 employees (including lawyers and shared services), if the above-mentioned allegations were true the firm would not have grown to such a large level. As an employee I have never faced any such issue and have only got support whether it is from a fellow associate or someone senior (including senior partners) who have sat down and solved problems our problems. If there is any place a junior should be to learn, it is for sure the Delhi Office of KCO. The place knows how to nurture talent and provide all support to it’s employees, specially during Covid you have had the HR dept and senior partners reach out to ensure that everything is fine. Whenever it is required, they have even stepped in and helped the employees deal with all problems. After speaking to people at our offices, everyone feels the same that the allegations in this thread don’t seem to reflect the reality.
Leaving aside great quality of work and confidence given to juniors to face clients from a nascent stage in their career, the sheer amount of time taken out by partners and principal associates to go out of their way to support junior associates is commendable.
also for the hater - out of the 5 people who have quit - 3 are pursuing LLM (2 of them got recommendations from their partners) and 1 is pursuing his MBA. Team culture is not defined by 1 or 2 incidents in the team. If associates who have joined recently face issues they should talk to the senior partners who have always stepped in.
You seem to have a good deal at KCO but the experience of others can’t be discounted merely on that fact alone. As people pointed out above, the bullying and toxic culture needs to change. The intent of the post here I think was to become defensive but actually ensure that Khaitan management wakes up and smells the coffee to act on the complaints.
This should NOT be discounted and efforts to resolve this must be made. I am sorry to say it but I have been ill treated massively by an senior associate, who is now a PA and similar complaints have been raised but no action. It was a sort of an abusive experience and just because the previous generation got tough love, they should not do the same to juniors.
Guys, please tell me something. Why do we juniors need to give in to bullying? If some MA is being rude, be equally rude to him. Give him or her tit for tat. And there are many firms in the market. Move out if you want to. Don't be scared of such losers who are just frustrated about their miserable lives and they be happy by making you feel frustrated as well. Losers they are. You need not be afraid. Just give them back.
"Insulting on teams calls, calling out at 4-5 am or working this late and then calling at 8.30 am just to ask them to forward a case law which they could very themselves pull out knowing the poor associate sent out the mail to them at 5.30 am."
Could not have summarized SA/LAS at law firms better. It's not just the partners who give them the free hand, the whole culture right from the managing partners is responsible for it. IN CAM, when similar concerns about work life balance were, the response of Cyril Shroff was "that is okay, but are you learning?"
Bullying is not only limited to mid level, but the toxicity is much higher at partners level. Partners not giving a flying fuck for associates life and space is a firm wide practice. I don't know what pleasures do they get from such behaviour
If you observe carefully, most of the mud slinging seems to have been led by a few people by changing their aliases. I am sure these people were not given the bonus they expected or the promotions they thought they deserved. You will fine these sore losers wherever you go. KCO Delhi has the maximum number of female partners, who are a pleasure to work with and behave like true partners. One of the partners just had a baby but started working during her maternity leave because the team was stressed and it could do with more hands. That’s how professional the firm is. If you want loyalty, you got to earn it first.
I am sorry but how is having the most number of female partners relevant here? Do you mean that only male partners are toxic? You're telling me someone had to cut short their maternity leave to re-join work because the firm could not distribute / manage work amongst the existing 'resources'. Bud, thats NOT a good thing.
Fair and having female partners is wonderful. But that is no reason of whether a toxic environment exist or not, it is not gender specific and should not be tried made into one.
This is the attitude which may have forced people to call out KCO publicly, no one is admitting that there is a problem and washing there hands off it. Please do some soul searching, maybe 1-2 comments may be motivated but are you saying nothing is true?
If that is the case, let an independent organisation carry out a survey in your office any other law firms, to really know? Are you ready for that.
The intention behind this post was not to blame the entire batch of partners and senior management at Khaitan. It was to bring it to the attention that there are a few people in the organisation in Delhi who have taken undue advantage since the partners do not step in and rein them for there misconduct. As repeated above, the partners and senior management form of some great people, who provide mentor ship, but due to their reason of leaving matters for SA/PA and junior partners to deal with, it turns out to be abusive. I don’t wish to point out examples of what has happened with me personally or my peers in the past, I wish to request the senior partners to please take note of the behaviour and reach out to people, not all people are bad but they outshine the good ones at time since they undertake actions which are not right. We knew what we were getting into, when joining a tier-1 Law firm, long nights, short deadlines etc are good and no one is refusing to work , we are asking for mutual respect and harmony to exist with our dignity. Sincere request is to just follow up on this and not take this post the wrong way. How can one post hit home with so many people at once, something must be wrong right . Personal comments above are not useful, no point pointing fingers at specific people, a cultural change is needed and we should build that in because everyone deserves respect.
Let’s strive to become a better organisation, not just for the clients but also for people who work in it. If this post has offended anyone, please forgive me.
Finally, please do take note of the actions who of the good seniors and inculcate the values made in them, into others.
Trust me a simple understanding sometimes goes a long way, with this I end with a hope that though we are no longer with the firm, the others do not suffer the name. Personal posts and frustration should be avoided in this constructive dialogue, this is meant to give everyone an opportunity to reach out and bring forth positive change and not misused by vested interest.
Some people will post personal stories to settle scores, others will try to brush this under the carpet.
I think that a majority of the statements made in this article are true of any of the big 6 firms in India. There is a lot of pressure, and most weekends are non-existent. All of them also have good teams and bad teams within the organisation and so I don't agree with the blanket statements made about KCO. One issue that I do think is specific to KCO is their pool system. While it has its positives (like helping you get out of a team or from under a senior you really dislike working with), it also helps gloss over the incompetence of a lot of people in the team at large. There are seniors who operate at the same level of seniority, but are incomparable in terms of their work output and the kind of work culture they build for their juniors. I have worked with seniors who are amazing, and with some who are decidedly less so. The pool system just ensures that the less-than-amazing seniors keep getting a fresh batch of juniors to make miserable. And because working with these seniors is not a permanent feature of life, a lot of juniors don't raise complaints about their inappropriate or negligent behaviour and silently hope to get transferred into a good team. I think if KCO does away with the pool system and allows people to pick their seniors they'll soon realise that there very few seniors everyone wants to work with. The ones that aren't popular, well, at least now you can focus your efforts on fixing the attitude problem in a more concentrated way.
By seniors I mean the middle level PAs and SAs. The job of the partners is not (as far as I know this is true of all the firms) to supervise the associates or micromanage them. Despite this, I think the senior management in KCO does take an interest in the associates, and on the whole do try and set a good tone in the firm.
Is the condition so gruesome at Big 7 that weekends are non- existent? I understand that there shall always be work on Saturday for 5-6 hours, but to say that weekends are non-existent makes it sound that corporate lawyers don't have anytime for themselves.
Saturdays are usually fully working. 10-12 hours. Sundays you may get off if you are lucky. Don't count on getting more than 2 Sundays fully off in tier one firms. Anything more would be a bonus.
Always heard that KCO and JSA have relatively better work culture. Also, is it true that Delhi has a better work culture than Mumbai at most of the law firms?
KCO Delhi is simply the best place to work at, the managing partner of KCO office at Delhi is one of the best mentors and persons to work under. I think the people in this post should have just approached him and I am sure he would have solved it.
Along with that the head of the banking and finance vertical is a great person and lovely person to work with. You tell them and they will make sure you will never work with that person and the concerned person is given a stern warning.
Don’t deny there might be some issues, which are natural in a large organisation and trust me they have even taken note of after this. Please give them a chance to solve this, this post could have been avoided.
The only solution is to allow entry of foreign law firms in India. They have good work, much better work culture and decent hours. They will force a market correction and make these Indian law firm fix their toxic work culture if they want to retain top talent.
It’s fine ans a healthy discussion , but would tell people that respect each other during these times, everyone needs each other’s support.
Work 12 hours but the seniors should be kind as well and juniors respect your seniors and where you maybe feel they are being unreasonable, try reaching out to them and speak. A small conversation can make a difference.
Advice for seniors and mid levels, treat your juniors the way you wanted to be treated when you were at some time in there place, our profession is such we all have to work long hours and service the bar, bench, system and our clients at the same time. All this can be done by maintaining professionalism and utmost respect towards human.
Too much hate is already there, reach out to each other and give it a chance.
One of the many reason being pointed out is a sheer volume of work and toxic work culture of mid levels, who are at times abusive and abused the Wfh by calling and forcing work at all times. Many joinees are immediately leaving. Senior management is aware but refuses to take action against Toxic mid levels who have abused and harassed juniors by treating them like cattle. Will KCO, Delhi take a note of this????
PA/SA are known to go AWOL and then harass and give unreasonable deadlines. A recent heart attack of a graduate in there Mumbai office (it is not due to work pressure but underlying disease) but he was working till 3 am. Money is the only incentive.
Is the culture the same at your law firm and do partners and senior management need to release that it is time to treat lower levels as humans cos as KCO, Delhi realised when they leave, you do get affected.
The HR is nothing but passes paper and has no real power to deal with complaints. They would rather brush it under the carpet rather than take a stand.
Respect juniors, they are meant to work on the high salaries you give them and long hours but they are HUMANS.
KCO is I have heard a place with a different, the senior management in the corporate team is said to be good, it is astonishingly the lack of accountability and action by senior management which gives them a free hand to treat associates and interns the way they were treated themselves. I know people at this firm in Delhi who needed the money badly but just could not take up sheer lack of respect by SA/PA, who do things with impunity since senior partners don’t undertake any action against them.
The intent of this post is not to put down KCO, but with folded hands begggg to please change the culture at the firm, young associates are being harrassed by mid levels to the core without any redressal mechanism. Insulting on teams calls, calling out at 4-5 am or working this late and then calling at 8.30 am just to ask them to forward a case law which they could very themselves pull out knowing the poor associate sent out the mail to them at 5.30 am.
PLEASE WITH FOLDED HANDS, SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE LEFT THE DELHI OFFICE IN THE PAST MONTH, NOT SO MANY PEople can be wrong. Something is going wrong culture work culture wise, save the ones who are still there, money does not compensate for everything.
To avoid repeating myself, HR and senior management need to act (who are the individually some very nice people and never misbehave or ill treat any of their associates) but then they don’t take action against the others. Not asking you to fire such people but some accountability should be set.
IF one SA/PA does not like a person, he gives a bad review and partners only have one side of the story. Maybe ask the associate once there side, then judge the facts, following natural justice which we as lawyers should know.
Standing for your own rights is important.
Another difference is how the KCO partners didn't know and didn't care about what I was doing, they didn't ask the people I actually worked with for reviews, and they certainly didn't ask me before staffing me on new transactions.
I just want to make it clear to anyone reading this that there are teams and partners that give a damn about how you're doing. Research and join the right ones. Every firm has its gems.
You cannot have both ! Consider 35 percent of your salary being paid for getting vilified for no reason and 25 percent of salary for deleting the word life from your dictionary and 40 percent of your salary for the work you do, which is not extraordinary or path breaking.
Legal services are priced by law firms at a premium - the charge out offered by Tier 1 is fairly high for the Indian market (recent race to the bottom on undercutting aside). As a result, lawyers working in these firms have to provide top notch service, both internally and externally. That is what you're paid for - you are not paid to be abused. That is crap peddled by people who think abusive culture or some weird variation of 'tough love' is the only way to nurture talent in a firm. You are paid for the skills and effort and hours you put in, and nothing else. The astronomical salaries you are offered are for your brains and your back, not your dignity, and don't let half-arsed idiots tell you that the money paid to you entitles anyone to misbehave with you.
There is no excuse for abuse in these organisations, and there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to tolerate it. I have been part of the capital markets practice at a Tier 1 firm for nearly 5 years, and it was literally how great the people were that made me stick more than the money or the career advancement. If the abuse / misbehaviour is taken out of the equation, juniors can thrive and develop at these firms and become very successful commercial lawyers in their own right. That is what firms ought to strive towards, and not some apologist shit about your arse belonging to them because they threw you an extra bone.
Do you think anyone cares about exits. They will get replacements easily
Look at the over talented people who have been promoted this year
Not all are bad but they outweigh the good ones by a long stretch. Don’t think for a minute though, anyone leaving makes a dent, they will have 30 job seekers for one position. Toxic is the word for the Delhi office at KCO.
(1) people who either made up their mind to leave during the year and stuck around to take the bonus
(2) people expecting a promotion and didn't get one
(3) people leveraging their promotion for better things (rarer for April exists).
This happens every year at every firm, it may just happen later due to deferred bonuses, etc.
Usual annual churn. Musical chairs
After speaking to people at our offices, everyone feels the same that the allegations in this thread don’t seem to reflect the reality.
Leaving aside great quality of work and confidence given to juniors to face clients from a nascent stage in their career, the sheer amount of time taken out by partners and principal associates to go out of their way to support junior associates is commendable.
This should NOT be discounted and efforts to resolve this must be made.
I am sorry to say it but I have been ill treated massively by an senior associate, who is now a PA and similar complaints have been raised but no action. It was a sort of an abusive experience and just because the previous generation got tough love, they should not do the same to juniors.
Could not have summarized SA/LAS at law firms better. It's not just the partners who give them the free hand, the whole culture right from the managing partners is responsible for it. IN CAM, when similar concerns about work life balance were, the response of Cyril Shroff was "that is okay, but are you learning?"
This is the attitude which may have forced people to call out KCO publicly, no one is admitting that there is a problem and washing there hands off it. Please do some soul searching, maybe 1-2 comments may be motivated but are you saying nothing is true?
If that is the case, let an independent organisation carry out a survey in your office any other law firms, to really know?
Are you ready for that.
Let’s strive to become a better organisation, not just for the clients but also for people who work in it. If this post has offended anyone, please forgive me.
Finally, please do take note of the actions who of the good seniors and inculcate the values made in them, into others.
Trust me a simple understanding sometimes goes a long way, with this I end with a hope that though we are no longer with the firm, the others do not suffer the name. Personal posts and frustration should be avoided in this constructive dialogue, this is meant to give everyone an opportunity to reach out and bring forth positive change and not misused by vested interest.
Some people will post personal stories to settle scores, others will try to brush this under the carpet.
By seniors I mean the middle level PAs and SAs. The job of the partners is not (as far as I know this is true of all the firms) to supervise the associates or micromanage them. Despite this, I think the senior management in KCO does take an interest in the associates, and on the whole do try and set a good tone in the firm.
Along with that the head of the banking and finance vertical is a great person and lovely person to work with. You tell them and they will make sure you will never work with that person and the concerned person is given a stern warning.
Don’t deny there might be some issues, which are natural in a large organisation and trust me they have even taken note of after this. Please give them a chance to solve this, this post could have been avoided.
Work 12 hours but the seniors should be kind as well and juniors respect your seniors and where you maybe feel they are being unreasonable, try reaching out to them and speak. A small conversation can make a difference.
Advice for seniors and mid levels, treat your juniors the way you wanted to be treated when you were at some time in there place, our profession is such we all have to work long hours and service the bar, bench, system and our clients at the same time. All this can be done by maintaining professionalism and utmost respect towards human.
Too much hate is already there, reach out to each other and give it a chance.
Extraordinary times, everyone show humanity.